Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD? - Page 29 - Blu-ray Forum

RiseDarthVader · 05-29-2009, 04:36 PM

Seems we are getting alot of new members come in out of nowhere and state their opinion which I am totally fine with but they are terribly misinformed which I am not fine with.

cregster · 05-29-2009, 04:38 PM

IMHO, neither should be the standard. PCM is MUCH better than either DTS or True HD. The biggest reason is the transient response of PCM is much better. Guns crack, doors close realistically, etc., etc.

When BD first came out, I couldn't wait for DTS Master to start showing up. And, it is very, very good--makes my speakers disappear. But, the transient response of PCM, even 16 bit, 48k, is much better. To me, that makes the movie have far more impact.

Compare the planes going over head in The Great Raid with the plane going over head in Flight of the Phoenix in DTS. Even though GReat Raid is only 16 bit, it has far more impact.

I don't know why, but I suspect that the decoding process carries a slight delay that softens the eventual delivery of the sound.

But, if I had to pick between the two, I would give a slight edge to DTS.

Monkey · 05-29-2009, 04:43 PM

Flight of the Phoenix made the walls and ceiling feel like they were going to rip apart at my old place

edit: haven't watched Great Raid, just remembering Flight of the Phoenix as being one of the craziest experiences with my old gear (HSU VTF-HO w/Turbo).

cregster · 05-29-2009, 04:52 PM

I need to clarify--by decoding, I actually meant 'decompressing' since both DTS and True HD use compression.

I'm not saying Flight of the Phoenix isn't good in DTS, only that The plane flying overhead in GReat Raid had far more realism and impact. Those are just two sections of movies having similar content. Yeah, you can't make a direct one for one comparison since they are not EXACTLY the same thing, but, to me, similar enough to make the comparison.

Also, to me, the PCM track of the original release of Casino Royale is much better than the DTS track now issued with it.

Also, I think the John Mayer disc with Light in the title is PCM 24/48 or 96 and it is crisp and clean. Maybe that is another word to describe what I feel is the difference between PCM and DTS--the sound is crisper, sharper (not sharp in a bad sense of the term).

To me, PCM is best. Especially is they would ever get 24/192.

Also, I am POSITIVE that in a blind test of listening to Casino Royale in either format I would be able to pick the PCM in a second. The difference is not subtle.

Blu-Malibu2009 · 05-29-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cregster

I need to clarify--by decoding, I actually meant 'decompressing' since both DTS and True HD use compression.

I'm not saying Flight of the Phoenix isn't good in DTS, only that The plane flying overhead in GReat Raid had far more realism and impact. Those are just two sections of movies having similar content. Yeah, you can't make a direct one for one comparison since they are not EXACTLY the same thing, but, to me, similar enough to make the comparison.

Also, to me, the PCM track of the original release of Casino Royale is much better than the DTS track now issued with it.

Also, I think the John Mayer disc with Light in the title is PCM 24/48 or 96 and it is crisp and clean. Maybe that is another word to describe what I feel is the difference between PCM and DTS--the sound is crisper, sharper (not sharp in a bad sense of the term).

To me, PCM is best. Especially is they would ever get 24/192.

Also, I am POSITIVE that in a blind test of listening to Casino Royale in either format I would be able to pick the PCM in a second. The difference is not subtle.

Uh, the new Casino Royale is in Dolby, not DTS.

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movie...50&show=review

I only have regular Dolby and DTS at the moment. The regular Dolby track on this disc is only 448 kbps instead of 640 kbps. Not sure why Sony didn't provide the full bitrate on it.

cregster · 05-29-2009, 05:53 PM

I couldn't remember which Casino was. Someone earlier had mentioned DTS Master.

I have the original one and a friend brought over the new one, and the PCM was much better to me. Everyone likely has their own opinion, but I am sure I could blind test it easily.

pdawg2003_03 · 05-29-2009, 06:52 PM

I don't like pcm because if you notice everything is set to each speaker with high volume and if you have a small surround sound system then the loud parts of the movie will pop your speakers. so NO to PCM. NO to Dolby TrueHD (in which dolby is like pcm cause every speaker is has a set noise and a set volume to what goes there) & YES TO DTS-HDMA (in which the sky is the limit with this one).

By the way can any one tell me which pcm/dolby truehd goes beyond 7.1 Mbs on a movie.

PCM - highest I've seen is 6.8 Mbs (Good Sound/Bad Choice)
Dolby TrueHD - Highest I've seen is 6.9 Mbs (Better Sound/STILL Bad Choice)
DTS-HDMA - Highest I've seen is 7.8 Mbs (Best Sound/GREAT CHOICE)

DING, DING, DING

I've think we have a winner.
So the winner/award in this catagory is.........DTS-HDMA
For Best Quality, Best Clarity & All Around Best Sound Ever

The only audio that can go beyond that all the way to 8.0 is DTS-HDMA if done/processed & mixed right

Cinema Squid · 05-29-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey

Like I said I'd love to see the data on review scores for how TrueHD titles have averaged compared to DTS-MA. I don't blame anybody for not wanting to take on the task (that is a hell of a lot work).

I wonder who would come up on top? Is peoples experiences with having a higher percentage of better mixes on DTS-MA being reflected in this poll? Definitely could be a correlation. Could TRueHD and DRC have a negative impact for TrueHD votes, could be..

That sounds like an interesting experiment - wait a sec, I know someone who has a database of Blu-ray reviews with scores so this should only take a few minutes!

Below is a list of the average audio scores grouped by primary audio codec for USA Blu-rays where audio scores from the original reviews are mapped directly onto a 100-point scale (for 5-star systems each half-star is 10 points).

Code:

Primary Codec      Avg. Audio Score  # Titles  # Reviews
-------------      ----------------  --------  ---------
LPCM               80.71               249       2,388
DTS-HD MA          79.88               419       4,414
TrueHD             77.75               366       3,762
*OVERALL*          76.75             1,344      12,156 
DTS-HD HR          71.90                31         158
DTS                70.36                37         192
AC-3               65.32               232       1,242

Total # Titles:            1,334 
Total # Reviews:          12,156 
Total # Review Sites:         38
Total # Reviewers:           214
Avg. # Reviews Per Title:   9.11 
Avg. Audio Score:          76.75

Interestingly enough, these numbers sort out the audio codecs exactly how many in this thread would rank them. All of the lossless codecs place higher than the overall average audio score, while all of the lossy codecs place lower with a significant gap between lossless and lossy.

Scorxpion · 05-29-2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTUBatfan2008

Uh, the new Casino Royale is in Dolby, not DTS.

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movie...50&show=review

I only have regular Dolby and DTS at the moment. The regular Dolby track on this disc is only 448 kbps instead of 640 kbps. Not sure why Sony didn't provide the full bitrate on it.

Sony did not provide the full bit rate for Dolby Digital here to give DolbyTrueHD a comfortable high bit rate where it can sunshine and deliver the goods needed in comparison with it's counterpart.For this reason DTSHD master audio is better where the DTS lossy still the same.Whereas,DolbyTruehd is one track and another track for dolby Digital so too much hungry space needed ,to avoid it we decrease the bit rate for Dolby digital.In case of DTSHD master audio ,you have an english language for master audio,DTSHD,and DTS lossy in full bit rate including DTS for other languages and if space still available you can put other languages different than before in Dolby Digital Two or three depends on authoring the disc.

PeterTHX · 05-29-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdawg2003_03

I don't like pcm because if you notice everything is set to each speaker with high volume and if you have a small surround sound system then the loud parts of the movie will pop your speakers. so NO to PCM. NO to Dolby TrueHD (in which dolby is like pcm cause every speaker is has a set noise and a set volume to what goes there) & YES TO DTS-HDMA (in which the sky is the limit with this one).

Um, your argument doesn't make sense when TrueHD has the Dynamic Range Control to keep from "popping" your speakers. DTS-HD MA does not.

Monkey · 05-29-2009, 07:24 PM

Nice work Cinema Squid.

Is that from Phloyd's site (forgot the name)?

Cinema Squid · 05-29-2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey

Nice work Cinema Squid.

Is that from Phloyd's site (forgot the name)?

No, it's from my own, but Phloyd's site (blu-raystats.com) is kickin'-rad as well.

Monkey · 05-29-2009, 07:37 PM

Very nice

you site is sig worthy

Just checked it out.. I'm pretty sure I have in the past but I the refresher helped, lol

dobyblue · 05-29-2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdawg2003_03

I don't like pcm because if you notice everything is set to each speaker with high volume and if you have a small surround sound system then the loud parts of the movie will pop your speakers. so NO to PCM. NO to Dolby TrueHD (in which dolby is like pcm cause every speaker is has a set noise and a set volume to what goes there) & YES TO DTS-HDMA (in which the sky is the limit with this one).

By the way can any one tell me which pcm/dolby truehd goes beyond 7.1 Mbs on a movie.

PCM - highest I've seen is 6.8 Mbs (Good Sound/Bad Choice)
Dolby TrueHD - Highest I've seen is 6.9 Mbs (Better Sound/STILL Bad Choice)
DTS-HDMA - Highest I've seen is 7.8 Mbs (Best Sound/GREAT CHOICE)

DING, DING, DING

I've think we have a winner.
So the winner/award in this catagory is.........DTS-HDMA
For Best Quality, Best Clarity & All Around Best Sound Ever

The only audio that can go beyond that all the way to 8.0 is DTS-HDMA if done/processed & mixed right

I've seen TrueHD go over 9.0Mbps, I guess that means it's the best?
Watch the Dave Matthews Blu.

cregster · 05-29-2009, 10:46 PM

Interesting that LPCM gave the highest score.

As I said, I like it best, but I fear it is going the way of the dodo bird--except on music discs.

pdawg2003_03 · 05-29-2009, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I've seen TrueHD go over 9.0Mbps, I guess that means it's the best?
Watch the Dave Matthews Blu.

well of course it's gonna be that way cause it's a live concert and it had a lot of work done on it, but what about a live action movie that has more to deal with sounding wise and the way the mics are in place far/close.

BStecke · 05-29-2009, 11:36 PM

Hey, this Excel file I compressed into a .zip is about half the size of the original. That means the data is better on the original, right?

PeterTHX · 05-29-2009, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStecke

Hey, this Excel file I compressed into a .zip is about half the size of the original. That means the data is better on the original, right?

No, the data is better had you used RAR.

cregster · 05-29-2009, 11:59 PM

Two different things Stecke.

Let's take a photo. You can compress a photo, and when you decompress, the photo looks the same. But, how long to decompress? And you have a static thing. Within a time frame, the uncompressed photo might look quite nice and complete while the compressed photo is only half there because it hasn't been fully decompressed yet.

Music is affected and altered by time and distance. I should say sound is affected.

IN my opinion, the compression process, even lossless, alters the RESULT of music or sound by softening the edges of transience. The file may be identical bit for bit, but that doesn't mean the result of it being mechanically delivered is the same.

This is not exactly a parallel, but the closer you are to the instant of creation of the sound of lightening, the sharper it sounds. In the distance, it is kind of a dull thud. Closer, it cracks. I've been about 50 yards from it landing and at that distance it is pure crack, clear and sharp as a knife.

And no, you can't smoke it.

Yeha-Noha · 05-30-2009, 12:10 AM

Well, despite that fact that they're equal in sound quality, I voted for dts-HD MA. I like the name. LOL. Looks cool on my receiver's display.

People like labels. Take jeans for example. People often buy jeans and other stuff for the label or brand, especially my kids. Whatever is popular among their peers, they gotta have it. The jeans could even come from the same mill and are identical right down to the last stitch, but if it doesn't have the label they want, they won't buy it.

I think perhaps Sony is fishing around to find out which codec is simply more popular or desirable for whatever reason that might be. What matters to Sony is, what the buyers are looking for.

View Poll Results: Should SPE Drop Dolby TrueHD and use DTS-HD Master Audio?
Yes, Drop TrueHD for DTS-HD MA	899	58.76%
No, I like things the way they are	152	9.93%
Wouldn't matter to me either way	450	29.41%
Other	29	1.90%
Voters: 1530. You may not vote on this poll

05-29-2009, 04:43 PM	#563
Monkey Blu-ray Knight Member since:Sep 2006 Trading Score:31	Flight of the Phoenix made the walls and ceiling feel like they were going to rip apart at my old place edit: haven't watched Great Raid, just remembering Flight of the Phoenix as being one of the craziest experiences with my old gear (HSU VTF-HO w/Turbo). Last edited by Monkey; 05-29-2009 at 04:56 PM.

05-29-2009, 07:37 PM	#573
Monkey Blu-ray Knight Member since:Sep 2006 Trading Score:31	Very nice you site is sig worthy Just checked it out.. I'm pretty sure I have in the past but I the refresher helped, lol Last edited by Monkey; 05-29-2009 at 07:39 PM.

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05-29-2009, 04:36 PM	#561
RiseDarthVader Power Member Member since:Sep 2008 Location:Australia Blu-ray collection:136	Seems we are getting alot of new members come in out of nowhere and state their opinion which I am totally fine with but they are terribly misinformed which I am not fine with.

05-29-2009, 04:38 PM	#562
cregster Member Member since:Aug 2007	IMHO, neither should be the standard. PCM is MUCH better than either DTS or True HD. The biggest reason is the transient response of PCM is much better. Guns crack, doors close realistically, etc., etc. When BD first came out, I couldn't wait for DTS Master to start showing up. And, it is very, very good--makes my speakers disappear. But, the transient response of PCM, even 16 bit, 48k, is much better. To me, that makes the movie have far more impact. Compare the planes going over head in The Great Raid with the plane going over head in Flight of the Phoenix in DTS. Even though GReat Raid is only 16 bit, it has far more impact. I don't know why, but I suspect that the decoding process carries a slight delay that softens the eventual delivery of the sound. But, if I had to pick between the two, I would give a slight edge to DTS.

05-29-2009, 04:52 PM	#564
cregster Member Member since:Aug 2007	I need to clarify--by decoding, I actually meant 'decompressing' since both DTS and True HD use compression. I'm not saying Flight of the Phoenix isn't good in DTS, only that The plane flying overhead in GReat Raid had far more realism and impact. Those are just two sections of movies having similar content. Yeah, you can't make a direct one for one comparison since they are not EXACTLY the same thing, but, to me, similar enough to make the comparison. Also, to me, the PCM track of the original release of Casino Royale is much better than the DTS track now issued with it. Also, I think the John Mayer disc with Light in the title is PCM 24/48 or 96 and it is crisp and clean. Maybe that is another word to describe what I feel is the difference between PCM and DTS--the sound is crisper, sharper (not sharp in a bad sense of the term). To me, PCM is best. Especially is they would ever get 24/192. Also, I am POSITIVE that in a blind test of listening to Casino Royale in either format I would be able to pick the PCM in a second. The difference is not subtle.

05-29-2009, 05:53 PM	#566
cregster Member Member since:Aug 2007	I couldn't remember which Casino was. Someone earlier had mentioned DTS Master. I have the original one and a friend brought over the new one, and the PCM was much better to me. Everyone likely has their own opinion, but I am sure I could blind test it easily.

05-29-2009, 06:52 PM	#567
pdawg2003_03 Member Member since:Aug 2007	I don't like pcm because if you notice everything is set to each speaker with high volume and if you have a small surround sound system then the loud parts of the movie will pop your speakers. so NO to PCM. NO to Dolby TrueHD (in which dolby is like pcm cause every speaker is has a set noise and a set volume to what goes there) & YES TO DTS-HDMA (in which the sky is the limit with this one). By the way can any one tell me which pcm/dolby truehd goes beyond 7.1 Mbs on a movie. PCM - highest I've seen is 6.8 Mbs (Good Sound/Bad Choice) Dolby TrueHD - Highest I've seen is 6.9 Mbs (Better Sound/STILL Bad Choice) DTS-HDMA - Highest I've seen is 7.8 Mbs (Best Sound/GREAT CHOICE) DING, DING, DING I've think we have a winner. So the winner/award in this catagory is.........DTS-HDMA For Best Quality, Best Clarity & All Around Best Sound Ever The only audio that can go beyond that all the way to 8.0 is DTS-HDMA if done/processed & mixed right

05-29-2009, 07:24 PM	#571
Monkey Blu-ray Knight Member since:Sep 2006 Trading Score:31	Nice work Cinema Squid. Is that from Phloyd's site (forgot the name)?

05-29-2009, 10:46 PM	#575
cregster Member Member since:Aug 2007	Interesting that LPCM gave the highest score. As I said, I like it best, but I fear it is going the way of the dodo bird--except on music discs.

05-29-2009, 11:36 PM	#577
BStecke Blu-ray Knight Member since:Jun 2007 4K collection:182 Blu-ray collection:567 DVD collection:1 Digital collection:1 iTunes collection:1 Blu-ray reviews: 1 Trading Score:6	Hey, this Excel file I compressed into a .zip is about half the size of the original. That means the data is better on the original, right?

05-29-2009, 11:59 PM	#579
cregster Member Member since:Aug 2007	Two different things Stecke. Let's take a photo. You can compress a photo, and when you decompress, the photo looks the same. But, how long to decompress? And you have a static thing. Within a time frame, the uncompressed photo might look quite nice and complete while the compressed photo is only half there because it hasn't been fully decompressed yet. Music is affected and altered by time and distance. I should say sound is affected. IN my opinion, the compression process, even lossless, alters the RESULT of music or sound by softening the edges of transience. The file may be identical bit for bit, but that doesn't mean the result of it being mechanically delivered is the same. This is not exactly a parallel, but the closer you are to the instant of creation of the sound of lightening, the sharper it sounds. In the distance, it is kind of a dull thud. Closer, it cracks. I've been about 50 yards from it landing and at that distance it is pure crack, clear and sharp as a knife. And no, you can't smoke it.

05-30-2009, 12:10 AM	#580
Yeha-Noha Power Member Member since:Jan 2008 Blu-ray reviews: 43	Well, despite that fact that they're equal in sound quality, I voted for dts-HD MA. I like the name. LOL. Looks cool on my receiver's display. People like labels. Take jeans for example. People often buy jeans and other stuff for the label or brand, especially my kids. Whatever is popular among their peers, they gotta have it. The jeans could even come from the same mill and are identical right down to the last stitch, but if it doesn't have the label they want, they won't buy it. I think perhaps Sony is fishing around to find out which codec is simply more popular or desirable for whatever reason that might be. What matters to Sony is, what the buyers are looking for.

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