OK I know I'm new here but I'm a new member of the paradigm club and I need some advice. I just ran across a deal on a cc690 center but it is a v5 and my studio 100's are v4. How well will the cc690v5 timbre match to my 100's?
From what I have read in the past, it is said that it is not ideal and it would be better if you stuck to the same version, unless you decide down the road to upgrade the V4 100's to V5.
I'm just starting to build a home theatre. I hate replacing things, so I'm attempting to get things piece-by-piece that will last, rather than getting a cheap system to start and then having to buy everything all over again.
So, would it be possible to run JUST a Studio CC-690, or some other high-quality centre (and a receiver, obviously), for a while? I realize that it's far from optimal, but would it work?
I'm glad you're going this route Obsidians instead of buying a crappy system that you'll have to upgrade eventually.
Ok, I am confused as hell. I listened to bunch of old school rap and hip hop favorite of mine knowing that they have great bass lines. A few of these songs are stored on my PS3 as MP3 320s, and a few are lossless PCM.
The test I am trying out is very simple. "How much cone excursion am I getting, along with how much air flow am I getting out of the port?"
And to make myself clear, I am not a rap or hiphop guy. I listen to everything, Tool, DaftPunk, Floyd, Biggie, Krall, Mozart. I chose the following tracks because of their bass lines.
Tone defeat in on.
Here is how I classify my volume uses with my T175/M25:
-20dB: usual tv watching (sports, Law and Order, and most television), and repeat movie watching, casual music
-15db: new movie watching, a little under my "reference" level, pumping music decently
-13db: reference level as per my SPL meter to a 70dB in room white noise
-10db: don't use this level for movies as it is simply too loud, good for pumping music
-5db: really starting to pump music
0db: club level music pumping.
Also understand, at any of these levels, there is no real audible distortion.
On to some testing:
I played "Beenie Man - It's all about Romi". This has a great bass line just like one of the first lines of lyrics "Gimmi some bass mek mi sing something ".
320kbs MP3 stored on my PS3, output via HDMI, reading on my T175 display is Digital 2.0 48khz
My rating based on above volume descriptions:
-20dB: minumal cone excursion, hardly any air coming form port, bass is there, but not palpaple
-10db: slight cone excursion, slight air from port, slightly palpaple
-0db: good cone excursion, ok air flow, more papaple
Then I played KRS' remix of Step into a world. Awesome hard hitting hip hop beat. Again 16bit PCM (or cd) stored on my PS3, output via HDMI, reading on my T175 display is Digital 2.0 48khz
My rating based on above volume descriptions:
-20dB: minumal cone excursion, hardly any air coming form port, bass is there, but not palpaple
-10db: better cone excursion, more air from port, more palpaple
-0db: good cone excursion, decent air flow, papaple
So looking at that, to get great excusion from the three woofers, I have to push the volume to club like level. Excessively loud, just barable for me to listen to, but nobody else in the house.
Here comes the confusing part. I pop in Cloverfield on Bluray into my PS3. I set the preamp to stereo only, no other speaker, no subwoofer. I turn my volume to -13db (my reference level of 70db with my spl meter). I jump to chapter 3 or 4 when all hell starts to break loose, especially the scene where the Liberty head crashes and the dust cloud flys in and the run into the store. Killer bass in these scene.
My rating for this scene:
-20dB: good cone excursion, decent air coming form port, pretty decent bass, pretty palpaple
-13db: great cone excursion, ton of air from port, really palpaple
-0db: will not push it that hard
So the last test shows that the speakers have the ability to provide great deep plapaple bass when given it.
So does anybody think there is something else going on here. Why do I have to push the volume levels to the extreme to get within arms reach of what I am getting from a movie at 13dB quieter (Cloverfield was still bassier).
I'm really having a tough time with this.
Last edited by Ryan Peddle; 09-16-2010 at 07:02 PM.
Sounds like the PS3 doesn't like playing the low end from your MP3 tracks. The PS3 sucks for music.
Do you have any other players? CDP or a TT to test that out?
Sounds like the PS3 doesn't like playing the low end from your MP3 tracks. The PS3 sucks for music.
Do you have any other players? CDP or a TT to test that out?
Even if I play a CD via the PS3 it is still like this. I've alway questioned whether the musical output of a blue laser (violet) device is different than that of a red laser CD player.
I do not currently have a cd player, just my PS3, my HDDVD player, and Rogers box as sources. And I won't even begin to describe the quality of music from Rogers and Galixy station.
I had planned on borrowing a NAD C545 cd player from work with some decent cables and try it out. I have to get around to doing that.
Even if I play a CD via the PS3 it is still like this. I've alway questioned whether the musical output of a blue laser (violet) device is different than that of a red laser CD player.
I do not currently have a cd player, just my PS3, my HDDVD player, and Rogers box as sources. And I won't even begin to describe the quality of music from Rogers and Galixy station.
I had planned on borrowing a NAD C545 cd player from work with some decent cables and try it out. I have to get around to doing that.
I'll bet you'll notice a huge difference with the NAD player.
I'm going to try to play some MP3's on my PS3 and see what I get. I know my 60's wouldn't have the bass output to that of the 100's but I'll try.
Ryan I've also got some older Dre and other West Cost beats that have heavy Bass lines. For me with some songs the bass does seem lacking a bit then with others it hits pretty hard. For example I just played the Dual Disc of Dr. Dre's "The Chronic" And both the enhanced and the regular version seem to be a bit low on the intro but I remember back in the day in my car the bass was just heavy on the intro. I used Source Direct so my Marantz automatically switches the 100's to Large. Then the track switches to "Dre day" and the Studio 100's put out decent bass at medium levels but when I turn it up it's the opposite of the intro - the bass gets deep enough that it does seem like a sub is being used. I brought it up to -5 and on the SPL was steady between 90-95db's. I'm gonna try some other songs known for bass - Basstronics - "Bass I Love You" and even older hip hop stuff maybe from the Beastie Boys.. There is also a track by the D.O.C. called "Let the Bass Go" that would be good to test out.
When I do listen to rap though I normally don't use Source or Pure Direct like I do with everything else. Depending on the CD I use straight Stereo - with the subs or M-CH Music and the fills the room with bass!! M-CH Music gives me the feel of back in the day when I used to bump that stuff in my ride.
My room shape/size is also not ideal - If my room was closed up it would be pretty square which is not good but I have open corners and an open left side so it helps. I still get good bass but sometimes better in other spots than my sweet spot.
Ryan I've also got some older Dre and other West Cost beats that have heavy Bass lines. For me with some songs the bass does seem lacking a bit then with others it hits pretty hard. For example I just played the Dual Disc of Dr. Dre's "The Chronic" And both the enhanced and the regular version seem to be a bit low on the intro but I remember back in the day in my car the bass was just heavy on the intro. I used Source Direct so my Marantz automatically switches the 100's to Large. Then the track switches to "Dre day" and the Studio 100's put out decent bass at medium levels but when I turn it up it's the opposite of the intro - the bass gets deep enough that it does seem like a sub is being used. I brought it up to -5 and on the SPL was steady between 90-95db's. I'm gonna try some other songs known for bass - Basstronics - "Bass I Love You" and even older hip hop stuff maybe from the Beastie Boys.. There is also a track by the D.O.C. called "Let the Bass Go" that would be good to test out.
When I do listen to rap though I normally don't use Source or Pure Direct like I do with everything else. Depending on the CD I use straight Stereo - with the subs or M-CH Music and the fills the room with bass!! M-CH Music gives me the feel of back in the day when I used to bump that stuff in my ride.
My room shape/size is also not ideal - If my room was closed up it would be pretty square which is not good but I have open corners and an open left side so it helps. I still get good bass but sometimes better in other spots than my sweet spot.
Well, I did find some resolve so far. I have been fiddling like an idiot with my PS3 audio and music settings. I have constantly been getting a readout of 48Khz on my T175 when using the PS3. When i enganged that 44.1/88.2/176.4 setting and then selected them all in the audio output settings, and got nothing...no sound. It does give you a warning that you may experience issues if the equipment is not compatible. So since I wasn't receiving and signal at all so I went back to 48Khz.
So, some more tinkinger and set it again to 44.1/88.2/176.4 and this time let the PS3 set the HDMI output automatically. Weirdly, it didn't select 176.4.
So I went back and selected a song KRS One, Step into a World. Now the output frequency was 88.2Khz, and I was at -10db...BOOOM....I had bass. I was 10db quieter and had more bass than when I was 0db at 48Hz.
What is weird is that the DACs in my T175 are Burr Brown 24bit/192khz, but it won't take a 176.4 setting. But that is another question for another day.
Now onto figuring out why my rogers box outputs 48Khz cause there is limited bass there.
Last edited by Ryan Peddle; 09-16-2010 at 10:02 PM.
Well, I did find some resolve so far. I have been fiddling like an idiot with my PS3 audio and music settings. I have constantly been getting a readout of 48Khz on my T175 when using the PS3. When i enganged that 44.1/88.2/176.4 setting and then selected them all in the audio output settings, and got nothing...no sound. It does give you a warning that you may experience issues if the equipment is not compatible. So since I wasn't receiving and signal at all so I went back to 48Khz.
So, some more tinkinger and set it again to 44.1/88.2/176.4 and this time let the PS3 set the HDMI output automatically. Weirdly, it didn't select 176.4.
So I went back and selected a song KRS One, Step into a World. Now the output frequency was 88.2Khz, and I was at -10db...BOOOM....I had bass. I was 10db quieter and had more bass than when I was 0db at 48Hz.
What is weird is that the DACs in my T175 are Burr Brown 24bit/192khz, but it won't take a 176.4 setting. But that is another question for another day.
Now onto figuring out why my rogers box outputs 48Khz cause there is limited bass there.
I don't know if you've already read it or not but there's a thread in the two channel section of AVS on using the PS3 as a cdp, you may find the optimal settings there. I think these days alot of music is very source dependant, some are really good and some really bad. The only time I get really deep bass from my 100's is when I hook them up to my Marantz two channel gear with my amp. With that combo of gear I get deep pounding bass, when playing music on my BDP or PS3 it's the same as you. I can't remember where but I read that the volume gain on the PS3 is low, so you have to bump the gain in the PS3 to +2 or +3. I would agree with Chris that your best bet is to try a good CDP and see what happens.
I don't know if you've already read it or not but there's a thread in the two channel section of AVS on using the PS3 as a cdp, you may find the optimal settings there. I think these days alot of music is very source dependant, some are really good and some really bad. The only time I get really deep bass from my 100's is when I hook them up to my Marantz two channel gear with my amp. With that combo of gear I get deep pounding bass, when playing music on my BDP or PS3 it's the same as you. I can't remember where but I read that the volume gain on the PS3 is low, so you have to bump the gain in the PS3 to +2 or +3. I would agree with Chris that your best bet is to try a good CDP and see what happens.
Absolutely. A CDP is in the works but I am certainly trying to get the most out of what I have right now. But it all fell onto the 48Khz setting. I back and forthed the same music and when the PS3 is outputting some permutation of 44.1KHz, it made a world of difference.
Here, I'll give you my full and perfect description of what I saw with my own eyes.
I was sitting in front of my right speaker which is next to my gear. I had both grills off the speakers. I played "Step into a world" and its bass line. The PS3 was set in 48Khz mode and the T175 displayed this on the front panel. At -10dB I looked across the room at the left speaker which I could see the front woofers on an angle pointing into the room. I couldn't really notice any real movement from the woofers. I went and changed the settings so that it output at 44.1/88.2 Khz. Front display of the T175 read 88.2Khz, same volume -10dB. Same song. Nothing has changed except that setting of output frequency. Song in playing, I look over to the left speaker and it is very visible that the woofers are now moving, plus I can feel the air on my ass from the right speaker since I am sitting in front of it.
I do look forward to getting a nice quality CD player. I know my NAD rep mentioned that he had an older C542 player that he could give me a great deal on. We'll see.
Last edited by Ryan Peddle; 09-17-2010 at 05:53 PM.
Reason: adding in REP where it very much needs to be
Absolutely. A CDP is in the works but I am certainly trying to get the most out of what I have right now. But it all fell onto the 48Khz setting. I back and forthed the same music and when the PS3 is outputting some permutation of 44.1KHz, it made a world of difference.
Here, I'll give you my full and perfect description of what I saw with my own eyes.
I was sitting in front of my right speaker which is next to my gear. I had both grills off the speakers. I played "Step into a world" and its bass line. The PS3 was set in 48Khz mode and the T175 displayed this on the front panel. At -10dB I looked across the room at the left speaker which I could see the front woofers on an angle pointing into the room. I couldn't really notice any real movement from the woofers. I went and changed the settings so that it output at 44.1/88.2 Khz. Front display of the T175 read 88.2Khz, same volume -10dB. Same song. Nothing has changed except that setting of output frequency. Song in playing, I look over to the left speaker and it is very visible that the woofers are now moving, plus I can feel the air on my ass from the right speaker since I am sitting in front of it.
I do look forward to getting a nice quality CD player. I know my NAD mentioned that he had an older C542 player that he could give me a great deal on. We'll see.
Who's your NAD? I think another part of the problem is that the speakers are accurate enough that they don't hide anything, where as others will mask a bad source a bit more. I've found that the source has to be high quality to get the best sound out of them. I bought my first two SACD's this week and the only thing I have to play them with is the PS3. I wonder how they're going to sound, I'll have to try later.
Guys, I listened to a boat load of music last night. AC/DC, Floyd, Verve Pipe, Gorillaz, Jewel, Green Day, Beastie Boys. It's like I have all new speakers. I can't believe I have been dealing with improper settings for so long.
I'll tell you, I can actually feel the bass beat in Intergalactic now. I very much prefer listening to music without my sub. Years ago when I owned my Monitor 7V2 and my PW2200. I used to love turning the sub off and really hearing what the towers can do.
I have been in a closet of worry since March when I bought the Studio 100s that there was either something wrong with them, that they weren't as good as advertised, or that the M25 powering them wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. I even thought that, in my room, I couldn't push the speaker loud enough to truly deliver.
I can tell you now, the 100s are an out of this world stellar speaker, and there is no worry regarding my amp at all.
The soundstage that is now present when I listen to music is phenomenal. Just a massive wall of sound. I listened to The Freshman by the Verve Pipe, and Brian Vander Ark's vocals are literally the entire wall. It sounded like he was 50 ft tall.
I love it.
Last edited by Ryan Peddle; 09-17-2010 at 05:54 PM.
Guys, I listened to a boat load of music last night. AC/DC, Floyd, Verve Pipe, Gorillaz, Jewel, Green Day, Beastie Boys. It's like I have all new speakers. I can't believe I have been dealing with improper settings for so long.
I'll tell you, I can actually feel the bass beat in Intergalactic now. I very much prefer listening to music without my sub. Years ago when I owned my Monitor 7V2 and my PW2200. I used to love turning the sub off and really hearing what the towers can do.
I have been in a closet of worry since March when I bought the Studio 100s that there was either something wrong with them, that they weren't as good as advertised, or that the M25 powering them wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. I even thought that, in my room, I couldn't push the speaker loud enough to truly deliver.
I can tell you now, the 100s are an out of this world stellar speaker, and there is no worry regarding my amp at all.
The soundstage that is now present when I listen to music is phenomenal. Just a massive wall of sound. I listened to The Freshman by the Verve Pipe, and Brian Vander Ark's vocals are literally the entire wall. It sounded like was 50 ft tall.
Guys, I listened to a boat load of music last night. AC/DC, Floyd, Verve Pipe, Gorillaz, Jewel, Green Day, Beastie Boys. It's like I have all new speakers. I can't believe I have been dealing with improper settings for so long.
I'll tell you, I can actually feel the bass beat in Intergalactic now. I very much prefer listening to music without my sub. Years ago when I owned my Monitor 7V2 and my PW2200. I used to love turning the sub off and really hearing what the towers can do.
I have been in a closet of worry since March when I bought the Studio 100s that there was either something wrong with them, that they weren't as good as advertised, or that the M25 powering them wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. I even thought that, in my room, I couldn't push the speaker loud enough to truly deliver.
I can tell you now, the 100s are an out of this world stellar speaker, and there is no worry regarding my amp at all.
The soundstage that is now present when I listen to music is phenomenal. Just a massive wall of sound. I listened to The Freshman by the Verve Pipe, and Brian Vander Ark's vocals are literally the entire wall. It sounded like he was 50 ft tall.
I love it.
So Ryan, what settings did you play with to correct your issue? Was it at a certain frequency like you said where the null or rolloff was occuring?
Guys, I listened to a boat load of music last night. AC/DC, Floyd, Verve Pipe, Gorillaz, Jewel, Green Day, Beastie Boys. It's like I have all new speakers. I can't believe I have been dealing with improper settings for so long.
I'll tell you, I can actually feel the bass beat in Intergalactic now. I very much prefer listening to music without my sub. Years ago when I owned my Monitor 7V2 and my PW2200. I used to love turning the sub off and really hearing what the towers can do.
I have been in a closet of worry since March when I bought the Studio 100s that there was either something wrong with them, that they weren't as good as advertised, or that the M25 powering them wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. I even thought that, in my room, I couldn't push the speaker loud enough to truly deliver.
I can tell you now, the 100s are an out of this world stellar speaker, and there is no worry regarding my amp at all.
The soundstage that is now present when I listen to music is phenomenal. Just a massive wall of sound. I listened to The Freshman by the Verve Pipe, and Brian Vander Ark's vocals are literally the entire wall. It sounded like he was 50 ft tall.
I love it.
What settings did you find worked the best on the PS3, I only have one cdp and it's not in the system with the 100's. I'm glad you've found the right settings to enjoy your 100's to the fullest, now if you could just pass those settings my way that would be great. I'm not getting the most out of my 100's yet, you could look at this one of two ways. #1 My Pioneer doesn't have enough voltage to drive the MCA 50 to full power or #2 the Anthem is a hard amp to drive to full power. So it's either sell one or the other, I'm not sure which one will go yet. The most cost effective solution would be to sell the amp but I'm looking hard at the Marantz AV7005, time will tell I guess. Which one would you guys keep?
So Ryan, what settings did you play with to correct your issue? Was it at a certain frequency like you said where the null or rolloff was occuring?
Well, when the output was 48Khz from the PS3 (again this is for music only as blurays are usually 48Khz), the highs "seemed fine" but the bass was so muted by comparison. I had to turn it WAY up just to get what I felt was decent bass, and usually that was with the tone control at +4 to 6 for the bass, and I even tinkered and turned the treble down -2 to 4.
So I finally switched the music setting output to 44.1/88.2/176.4. But allowed the PS3 to automatically select the output frequency over HDMI which it selected 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, (no 176.4) 192. I don't know why it didn't select 176.4, but it didn't.
Once these settings were selected, my preamp was finally receiving 44.1KHz via 88.2 sampling. It made a world of difference. First off, I didn't have to have the volume at 0db to get decent bass. at -10db (still loud) everything was now balanced. Treble was more distinct but not bright, and bass was supple and you felt ever note.
Just so that everything is known, my PS3 is a 40Gig version with the latest firmware.
These settings have weirdly evaded me for the longest time, regardless of the fact that I had been playing with them for a while. The problem was simply that my preamp didn't like 176.4 which I was previously ALWAYS manually selected as I thought I should select everything since the DAC is Burr Brown 24bit 192 Khz.
Well, when the output was 48Khz from the PS3 (again this is for music only as blurays are usually 48Khz), the highs "seemed fine" but the bass was so muted by comparison. I had to turn it WAY up just to get what I felt was decent bass, and usually that was with the tone control at +4 to 6 for the bass, and I even tinkered and turned the treble down -2 to 4.
So I finally switched the music setting output to 44.1/88.2/176.4. But allowed the PS3 to automatically select the output frequency over HDMI which it selected 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, (no 176.4) 192. I don't know why it didn't select 176.4, but it didn't.
Once these settings were selected, my preamp was finally receiving 44.1KHz via 88.2 sampling. It made a world of difference. First off, I didn't have to have the volume at 0db to get decent bass. at -10db (still loud) everything was now balanced. Treble was more distinct but not bright, and bass was supple and you felt ever note.
Just so that everything is known, my PS3 is a 40Gig version with the latest firmware.
These settings have weirdly evaded me for the longest time, regardless of the fact that I had been playing with them for a while. The problem was simply that my preamp didn't like 176.4 which I was previously ALWAYS manually selected as I thought I should select everything since the DAC is Burr Brown 24bit 192 Khz.
Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to type that!
What settings did you find worked the best on the PS3, I only have one cdp and it's not in the system with the 100's. I'm glad you've found the right settings to enjoy your 100's to the fullest, now if you could just pass those settings my way that would be great. I'm not getting the most out of my 100's yet, you could look at this one of two ways. #1 My Pioneer doesn't have enough voltage to drive the MCA 50 to full power or #2 the Anthem is a hard amp to drive to full power. So it's either sell one or the other, I'm not sure which one will go yet. The most cost effective solution would be to sell the amp but I'm looking hard at the Marantz AV7005, time will tell I guess. Which one would you guys keep?
Your Pioneer and Anthem should make a great compliment. Simply go into the settings area of the PS3 Xross Media Bar. First go down to Music settings, output frequency and enable 44.1/88.2/176.4 Khz.
Then go back out to the main settings column and scroll down to audio settings, and output settings, select HDMI (if that is what you are using) and choose automatic, it will then come up with a list of output settings, I know that the only ones that were not selected we 176.4 for 2/5.1/7.1 and 192 for the same.
This then allowed the PS3 to output 88.2 (for my particular circumstance) and made a world of difference to the sound for 2ch music for my 100s when set to Large with no sub.
As you can see, I am having a very slow day at work. Did Audyssey calibration in the theatre room. Setup another zone for Sonos in the store, had lunch, called a few leads, posted here. What a Friday.
As you can see, I am having a very slow day at work. Did Audyssey calibration in the theatre room. Setup another zone for Sonos in the store, had lunch, called a few leads, posted here. What a Friday.
I want to come down to your shop and check out your gear.
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I think another part of the problem is that the speakers are accurate enough that they don't hide anything, where as others will mask a bad source a bit more. I've found that the source has to be high quality to get the best sound out of them. I bought my first two SACD's this week and the only thing I have to play them with is the PS3. I wonder how they're going to sound, I'll have to try later.
Linear Mode
