Uncompressed or Dolby Digital?

[warren]

Originally Posted by leukoplast

What AAC stands for ? and what is it ?

so correct me if i am wrong , please...
Bit stream - optical
lpcm - HDMI

what about stereo ?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by warren

What AAC stands for ? and what is it ?

AAC is an audio codec co-developed by Dolby and the MPEG group, basically combines the best aspects of Dolby Digital and MP3 into a new lossy codec that has acceptable sound at low bitrates. Apple iTunes uses it as their format. The PlayStation 3 allows you to rip your CDs using this as a compression format (along with MP3). I use the 320kbps bitrate.

Even though I also have AAC checked off as well on my PS3, my receiver gets the signal (via HDMI or optical) as PCM.

so correct me if i am wrong , please...
Bit stream - optical
lpcm - HDMI

what about stereo ?

You can send either bitstream or Linear PCM through either output. Optical, however, can only send PCM in stereo format. It doesn't have the necessary bandwidth to send multichannel PCM.

I have my PS3 HDMI audio out set to "bitstream". It pre-decodes Dolby TrueHD and SACD audio to multichannel PCM and send it as such to my receiver's HDMI (version 1.1) input.

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

And who cares if DTS has it in their spec yet NO releases use it?
A spec is only as useful as actual product.

Sorry, this is a ridiculous argument. The big difference is, it is there in the spec to be used if anyone wants to, period. With TrueHD it just cannot be done, and that's that, so if a customer wants to do 192/24 5.1, for, say, a music release, guess which codec they are going to choose?

They may be shipping receivers with the decoders, but until the Denon ships, no one can *hear* it.

So?

In any case TrueHD covers just about every film soundtrack yet produced (how many film soundtracks use 24/192? I'm betting close to none). It works, uses less DSP and is supported by the majority of BD players out there.

Who's limiting this conversation to film soundtracks? As a matter of fact, the majority of film soundtracks aren't even recorded digitally, so they can be remastered digitally at whatever resolution the producer/director/studio desires. Blu-ray (or HD-DVD for that matter) aren't even limited to just film releases, so, what's your point? Maybe I want to listen to a concert on Blu-ray recorded in 192/24 or how about a multichannel audio-only release of an album? The potential is there, and Dolby has limited TrueHD to only 96/24 in the spec, for whatever their reasons.

[DaViD Boulet]

Not to mention that DTS avoids the (likely) issue of Dialog Normalization with Dolby TrueHD encodings.

[jcs913]

I have my PS3 HDMI audio out set to "bitstream". It pre-decodes Dolby TrueHD and SACD audio to multichannel PCM and send it as such to my receiver's HDMI (version 1.1) input.[/QUOTE]


I have mine set to bitstream for all tracks, but TrueHD and DTS-MA. The PS3 decodes the TrueHD track, but in bitstream, doesn't it send it out as a standard DD soundtrack? Doesn't the PS3 need to be on LPCM on the TrueHD track, to get the bit for bit PCM track correctly sent? My receiver Pioneer Elite (1.2a HDMI) says DD when I bitstream that track out, but says PCM, when I choose LPCM on the PS3. It is the only time I change the setting. Am I missing something?

[DaViD Boulet]

I think over HDMI the PS3 might auto-decode the DolbyTrueHD regardless of the PCM/bitstream setting. Not sure though since I don't have an HDMI receiver!

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by jcs913

I have mine set to bitstream for all tracks, but TrueHD and DTS-MA. The PS3 decodes the TrueHD track, but in bitstream, doesn't it send it out as a standard DD soundtrack? Doesn't the PS3 need to be on LPCM on the TrueHD track, to get the bit for bit PCM track correctly sent? My receiver Pioneer Elite (1.2a HDMI) says DD when I bitstream that track out, but says PCM, when I choose LPCM on the PS3. It is the only time I change the setting. Am I missing something?

No, you are correct. This is exactly how my Panasonic DMP-BD10 works as well. Any player that doesn't have HDMI 1.3 (and the proper HDMI 1.3 at that) cannot stream the advanced codecs, so therefore you have to set the player to PCM, otherwise it will just send DD or (in the case of the Panny and DTS-HD HR content) the dts core.

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

I think over HDMI the PS3 might auto-decode the DolbyTrueHD regardless of the PCM/bitstream setting. Not sure though since I don't have an HDMI receiver!

Maybe, I don't have a PS3, so I can't say for sure, but I would think that it would have to be set to PCM, otherwise, if you wanted to listen to the DD, even if just for comparison's sake, how would you do it?

[mikem471]

Originally Posted by BozQ

Dolby Digital is compressed. So which do you think is better?

Wow, nice douchey response to the guys question.

Anywho, uncompressed is the way to go, IMO.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

Maybe, I don't have a PS3, so I can't say for sure, but I would think that it would have to be set to PCM, otherwise, if you wanted to listen to the DD, even if just for comparison's sake, how would you do it?

If you set the HDMI to "bitstream" it decodes the TrueHD and SACD to multichannel PCM.

If you want to compare you simply switch to the companion DD track.

If you're hooked up to optical it outputs the companion DD track (even if TrueHD is selected) and downmixes the SACD to 2 channel PCM.

So, with the PS3, set both outputs to bitstream. You do not need a HDMI 1.3 receiver to hear the TrueHD lossless soundtrack.

[jcs913]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

If you set the HDMI to "bitstream" it decodes the TrueHD and SACD to multichannel PCM.

If you want to compare you simply switch to the companion DD track.

If you're hooked up to optical it outputs the companion DD track (even if TrueHD is selected) and downmixes the SACD to 2 channel PCM.

So, with the PS3, set both outputs to bitstream. You do not need a HDMI 1.3 receiver to hear the TrueHD lossless soundtrack.

Actually, if you bitstream the TrueHD track to your HDMI recevier, it is only playing the DD core track. If you set it to LPCM, you are getting the decoded TrueHD track. The PS3 decodes the TrueHD track internally, but will only send it through HDMI, bit for bit through the LPCM selection. If you look at the menu for the PS3 during playback, say on Ghost Rider, the TrueHD tab is only present during LPCM playback, not bitstream. It seems to only send the DD core track through bitstream, my receiver confirms this. There is no PCM signal coming through on the TrueHD track in bitstream. But the PCM 5.1 track stays the same through bitstream, if you choose that codec. I might be confused, but this is what the receiver is telling me and the sound is telling me.

[PeterTHX]

Actually, if you bitstream the TrueHD track to your HDMI recevier, it is only playing the DD core track

No. It's decoding the TrueHD stream and outputting it as multichannel PCM. The PCM setting is only good if your receiver does not decode DD and DTS thru HDMI (some don't). There is a definate difference in sound when you hear it.

If you look at the menu for the PS3 during playback, say on Ghost Rider, the TrueHD tab is only present during LPCM playback, not bitstream.

I have Legends of Jazz and Letters From Iwo Jima. My settings have always been bitstream and the TrueHD logo comes up if I select those tracks.

Another problem of setting it to PCM is that 6.1 DTS ES soundtracks (like X-MEN: The Last Stand) are decoded 5.1 by the PS3 and sent to a receiver as such. Also older receivers like my 803 Onkyo will not overlay THX Surround EX on multichannel PCM. I prefer it on as much as possible and with DD & DTS thru HDMI I still have that option.

It seems to only send the DD core track through bitstream, my receiver confirms this.

Depends on what your receiver tells the PS3 it's capable of. My audio settings PS3 to Onkyo TX-SR803 via HDMI:

DD
DTS
AAC (PS3 decodes to PCM)
PCM 2 channel all options to 192kHz
PCM 5.1 channel options to 96kHz

Note there are no options for TrueHD or SACD. The PS3 is incapable of outputting them as anything but multichannel PCM due to its revision of the HDMI 1.3 chipset.

[jcs913]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

No. It's decoding the TrueHD stream and outputting it as multichannel PCM. The PCM setting is only good if your receiver does not decode DD and DTS thru HDMI (some don't). There is a definate difference in sound when you hear it.



I have Legends of Jazz and Letters From Iwo Jima. My settings have always been bitstream and the TrueHD logo comes up if I select those tracks.

Another problem of setting it to PCM is that 6.1 DTS ES soundtracks (like X-MEN: The Last Stand) are decoded 5.1 by the PS3 and sent to a receiver as such. Also older receivers like my 803 Onkyo will not overlay THX Surround EX on multichannel PCM. I prefer it on as much as possible and with DD & DTS thru HDMI I still have that option.



Depends on what your receiver tells the PS3 it's capable of. My audio settings PS3 to Onkyo TX-SR803 via HDMI:

DD
DTS
AAC (PS3 decodes to PCM)
PCM 2 channel all options to 192kHz
PCM 5.1 channel options to 96kHz

Note there are no options for TrueHD or SACD. The PS3 is incapable of outputting them as anything but multichannel PCM due to its revision of the HDMI 1.3 chipset.

It is interesting, when you choose the bitstream option, the PS3 warns that you will miss some audio on some BD discs if you choose this. I think this was put in for this TrueHD discussion.

I have the same audio options checked as you, and my Elite 82 says DD main track on the TrueHD output through bitstream and I know it decodes all tracks. I put Ghost Rider back in to confirm, and again when it is bitstreaming the TrueHD track, my receiver just says DD. The PS3 menu screen says multi-channel and it has a 664 bit rate, which I know is not the decoded PCM of TrueHD. But when I choose LPCM on the TrueHD track, it says PCM and the bit rate is at the 2.0, like it is supposed to. It seems like a difference in designs from our receivers. A friend of mine has a Sony ES and his says the same DD core track when he bitstreams it out. But as expected, says PCM when he chooses LPCM.

You are correct on any of the DTS 6.1, you want bitstream as your choice, but of course, we are only talking about TrueHD. I wonder what the differences will be when the PS3 decodes DTS-HD. Hopefully, it will not continue to pull out the 1.5 core track. I understand some DTS-HD tracks get as high as 6MBPS. That should be interesting how it will send that track through PCM.

What does your receiver say when you bitstream the TrueHD tracks out? Multichannel PCM, or does it show the DD?

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

Actually, optical/coax can do 48/24 5.1 LPCM, and tops out at 96/24 2.0, IIRC. Some receivers may or may not then add a .1 or 'LFE' channel, meaning, do bass management, on a LPCM 96/24 signal.

Optical nor coaxial cannot pass anymore than two channels of PCM. Neither have enough bandwidth. Dts and DD can pass through these channels because both do not have the bandwidth to exceed this output. 2.0 of 24/96 would not have a LFE channel, so bass managment is not an option.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

So?

Who's limiting this conversation to film soundtracks? As a matter of fact, the majority of film soundtracks aren't even recorded digitally, so they can be remastered digitally at whatever resolution the producer/director/studio desires. Blu-ray (or HD-DVD for that matter) aren't even limited to just film releases, so, what's your point? Maybe I want to listen to a concert on Blu-ray recorded in 192/24 or how about a multichannel audio-only release of an album? The potential is there, and Dolby has limited TrueHD to only 96/24 in the spec, for whatever their reasons.

These days almost all soundtracks are digitally created. You either downsample/downcovert, or upsample and upconvert to whatever resolution you choose. Music is all over the place with some engineers recording in analog, mixing and mastering in analog, and then converting to digital, or just recording in hi rez digital, and downconverting to any format including analog.

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Optical nor coaxial cannot pass anymore than two channels of PCM. Neither have enough bandwidth. Dts and DD can pass through these channels because both do not have the bandwidth to exceed this output. 2.0 of 24/96 would not have a LFE channel, so bass managment is not an option.

What? Doesn't DVD support up to 48/24 PCM in 5.1, I know it isn't all just to be passed as analogue. In fact, there are some, extremely rare though they are, components that pass 192/24 PCM in stereo via s/pdif-toslink - why wouldn't it do 48/24 5.1? As for Bass Management with 96/24 LPCM 2.0, you are mistaken. It is definitely dependent on the component for sure. If it can handle it, will do bass management, if it can't it won't. My Denon DVD-2200 universal player has a setting that allows me to add LFE to a 2-channel signal, be it 96/24 or otherwise. My Sony SCD-XA9000ES does this with 2-channel SACDs as well. However, for whatever reason, my Sony DA4ES AVR will not apply bass management (or PLII or dts:neo or any other processing) to any 96/24 signal.

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

These days almost all soundtracks are digitally created. You either downsample/downcovert, or upsample and upconvert to whatever resolution you choose. Music is all over the place with some engineers recording in analog, mixing and mastering in analog, and then converting to digital, or just recording in hi rez digital, and downconverting to any format including analog.

These days, yes, but we are talking about all soundtracks in total. That means, the vast majority of soundtracks are still analogue. Obviously, at some point in the future there will be a crossover point when that will change, but for now, it hasn't.

As for music, you don't have to tell me, that's my business.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by jcs913

It is interesting, when you choose the bitstream option, the PS3 warns that you will miss some audio on some BD discs if you choose this. I think this was put in for this TrueHD discussion.

I have the same audio options checked as you, and my Elite 82 says DD main track on the TrueHD output through bitstream and I know it decodes all tracks. I put Ghost Rider back in to confirm, and again when it is bitstreaming the TrueHD track, my receiver just says DD. The PS3 menu screen says multi-channel and it has a 664 bit rate, which I know is not the decoded PCM of TrueHD. But when I choose LPCM on the TrueHD track, it says PCM and the bit rate is at the 2.0, like it is supposed to. It seems like a difference in designs from our receivers. A friend of mine has a Sony ES and his says the same DD core track when he bitstreams it out. But as expected, says PCM when he chooses LPCM.

You are correct on any of the DTS 6.1, you want bitstream as your choice, but of course, we are only talking about TrueHD. I wonder what the differences will be when the PS3 decodes DTS-HD. Hopefully, it will not continue to pull out the 1.5 core track. I understand some DTS-HD tracks get as high as 6MBPS. That should be interesting how it will send that track through PCM.

What does your receiver say when you bitstream the TrueHD tracks out? Multichannel PCM, or does it show the DD?

Peculiar.
Perhaps your Elite told the PS3 it can't handle the flag or something.
My Onkyo reads "Multichannel PCM 3/2 48kHz" when playing TrueHD tracks, the onscreen PS3 guide says "TrueHD" and the bitrate bounces between 990kbps and 3.3 Mbps on "Iwo Jima" and 3-5Mbps on "Jazz"

Any other soundtracks (DD or DTS) the receiver will read "Dolby D" / "Dolby D EX" or "DTS"/"DTS ES". HDMI 1.1 is a 2 way street and the receiver should tell the output device what it can or can't handle.

[GreenMotion]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Optical nor coaxial cannot pass anymore than two channels of PCM. Neither have enough bandwidth. Dts and DD can pass through these channels because both do not have the bandwidth to exceed this output. 2.0 of 24/96 would not have a LFE channel, so bass managment is not an option.

You know, I don't understand why that is!?!?. I thought optical cable had a huge bandwidth!?!?

[MatrixS2000]

^ optical cable does, the limitation lies with the electronics on the ends of the cable...