Uncompressed or Dolby Digital?

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by leukoplast

As I said in a previous post, I think (just think) that you can also do multichannel PCM via analog cables. Like multichannel-in and having 6 separate cords (signifying each channel) going to the receiver.

You don't have to 'just think' . I already answered this in a previous post. You're correct that multichannel PCM can be output to any receiver that has analogue multichannel inputs. My receiver has two sets of them - one 5.1 and one 7.1. I connect my Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-ray player's 7.1 analogue multichannel outputs to my receiver's 7.1 analogue multichannel inputs, and I get to listen to uncompressed PCM, TrueHD, and DTS-HD HR soundtracks, as the Panny decodes those two codecs as well and passes them as PCM via HDMI and the analogue multichannel outs.

That and optical can do 2.1, but HDMI can do all the rest.

Actually, optical/coax can do 48/24 5.1 LPCM, and tops out at 96/24 2.0, IIRC. Some receivers may or may not then add a .1 or 'LFE' channel, meaning, do bass management, on a LPCM 96/24 signal.

[leukoplast]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

You don't have to 'just think' . I already answered this in a previous post. You're correct that multichannel PCM can be output to any receiver that has analogue multichannel inputs. My receiver has two sets of them - one 5.1 and one 7.1. I connect my Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-ray player's 7.1 analogue multichannel outputs to my receiver's 7.1 analogue multichannel inputs, and I get to listen to uncompressed PCM, TrueHD, and DTS-HD HR soundtracks, as the Panny decodes those two codecs as well and passes them as PCM via HDMI and the analogue multichannel outs.

Actually, optical/coax can do 48/24 5.1 LPCM, and tops out at 96/24 2.0, IIRC. Some receivers may or may not then add a .1 or 'LFE' channel, meaning, do bass management, on a LPCM 96/24 signal.

Good, thank you for answering that question Now I can know for sure.

Also, about optical and LPCM. I was only able to get stereo uncompressed PCM while watching the Fifth element. But when it was in HDMI, it did (at least) main/center/main

Reason I say at least is cause I currently don't have my backs connected.

But that stands to reason that optical can only pass 2.1 uncompressed. And not by my own experience but I have read other things that point in that direction as well. (Although nothing in concrete)

Also, here is further interesting info from my PS3 menus.

I can manually choose which sound I want for each audio option (HDMI, optical etc) and here is the list of supported formats via optical.

(BTW first one says Dolby Digital 5.1...but my cam doesn't pick up the bright whites in the TV very well)



So by this example, it seems either the PS3 cannot send more than a 2.1 LPCM, or its just impossible with optical. I would have to go with the latter on this, since the PS3 is quite the techno marvel.

And here is the HDMI options list, which has a heck of a lot more options. (left a few out of the pic...didn't want 3 pics for the HDMI list, lol.)

[digital.view]

Interesting. I'd always wondered if I was getting the full spectrum using toslink. Guess not.

[PeterTHX]

HDMI bandwidth is measured in gigabits.

Toslink was good enough for the 90's, but with stuff like uncompressed multichannel 24 bit PCM it can't handle the new formats.

[jcs913]

So by this example, it seems either the PS3 cannot send more than a 2.1 LPCM, or its just impossible with optical. I would have to go with the latter on this, since the PS3 is quite the techno marvel.

And here is the HDMI options list, which has a heck of a lot more options. (left a few out of the pic...didn't want 3 pics for the HDMI list, lol.)



[/QUOTE]

I always found it interesting that the True HD is not an option in the menu since the PS3 decodes it. By the way, why does it seem that most people have Linear PCM checked off. If you are running an HDMI cable to a capable receiver, don't you want the receiver to do the decoding for you? I have an Elite 82 and it decodes all forms of PCM, DD and DTS. I am pretty sure that it's DAC's are better than the PS3's decoding of the codecs. The only time I use the Linear PCM options is through the Dolby TrueHD track, where I need the PS3 to decode it and send it PCM. I am curious to others thoughts on my setup.

[leukoplast]

Originally Posted by jcs913

I always found it interesting that the True HD is not an option in the menu since the PS3 decodes it. By the way, why does it seem that most people have Linear PCM checked off. If you are running an HDMI cable to a capable receiver, don't you want the receiver to do the decoding for you? I have an Elite 82 and it decodes all forms of PCM, DD and DTS. I am pretty sure that it's DAC's are better than the PS3's decoding of the codecs. The only time I use the Linear PCM options is through the Dolby TrueHD track, where I need the PS3 to decode it and send it PCM. I am curious to others thoughts on my setup.

I think the reason Dolby THD isn't there, cause the list of audio options is what the PS3 passes along. And it can't pass the Dolby THD, but as 7.1 LPCM.

And I have everything checked, since PCM is really the only option for the PS3 and the new audio formats.

As it cant pass certain bitstreams. Not to mention when I have it set to bitstream, some sounds don't occur, like on meuns and stuff.

[digital.view]

Originally Posted by leukoplast

I think the reason Dolby THD isn't there, cause the list of audio options is what the PS3 passes along. And it can't pass the Dolby THD, but as 7.1 LPCM.

And I have everything checked, since PCM is really the only option for the PS3 and the new audio formats.

As it cant pass certain bitstreams. Not to mention when I have it set to bitstream, some sounds don't occur, like on meuns and stuff.

What you are saying is that currently, the PS3 "understands" how to decompress DTHD, but passes it as LPCM to the receiver?

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by digital.view

What you are saying is that currently, the PS3 "understands" how to decompress DTHD, but passes it as LPCM to the receiver?

Correct, the PS3 has built into it the required (either software or hardware) information to decode the Dolby TrueHD track onboard and then pass it along to the receiver via LPCM. Unfortunately there is no way to pass the bitstream of Dolby TrueHD from the PS3 to the receiver...yet.

[digital.view]

Originally Posted by Zaphod

Correct, the PS3 has built into it the required (either software or hardware) information to decode the Dolby TrueHD track onboard and then pass it along to the receiver via LPCM. Unfortunately there is no way to pass the bitstream of Dolby TrueHD from the PS3 to the receiver...yet.

What would be the benefit of sending a DTHD bitstream from PS3 to receiver?

Isn't that doing the same thing? Uncompressing the DTHD, then sending it to the ones receiver as bitstream to be converted to analog?

[leukoplast]

Originally Posted by Zaphod

Correct, the PS3 has built into it the required (either software or hardware) information to decode the Dolby TrueHD track onboard and then pass it along to the receiver via LPCM. Unfortunately there is no way to pass the bitstream of Dolby TrueHD from the PS3 to the receiver...yet.

Don't count on any of the current PS3's to do it, this is a hardware issue. Seems when they implemented HDMI 1.3 on the PS3, they got a early version that is incapable of passing bitstream with the new lossless formats.

So unless they decide to start putting the newer HDMI 1.3 on the 80GB models, you will never be able to bitstream DTS-HDMA or Dolby TrueHD from the PS3. You will only be able to internally decode them, and have it go out as LPCM. But from what Ive been told, there is no difference besides the PS3 decoding it, instead of the receiver.

[warren]

Originally Posted by leukoplast

What AAC stands for ? and what is it ?

so correct me if i am wrong , please...
Bit stream - optical
lpcm - HDMI

what about stereo ?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by warren

What AAC stands for ? and what is it ?

AAC is an audio codec co-developed by Dolby and the MPEG group, basically combines the best aspects of Dolby Digital and MP3 into a new lossy codec that has acceptable sound at low bitrates. Apple iTunes uses it as their format. The PlayStation 3 allows you to rip your CDs using this as a compression format (along with MP3). I use the 320kbps bitrate.

Even though I also have AAC checked off as well on my PS3, my receiver gets the signal (via HDMI or optical) as PCM.

so correct me if i am wrong , please...
Bit stream - optical
lpcm - HDMI

what about stereo ?

You can send either bitstream or Linear PCM through either output. Optical, however, can only send PCM in stereo format. It doesn't have the necessary bandwidth to send multichannel PCM.

I have my PS3 HDMI audio out set to "bitstream". It pre-decodes Dolby TrueHD and SACD audio to multichannel PCM and send it as such to my receiver's HDMI (version 1.1) input.

[jcs913]

I have my PS3 HDMI audio out set to "bitstream". It pre-decodes Dolby TrueHD and SACD audio to multichannel PCM and send it as such to my receiver's HDMI (version 1.1) input.[/QUOTE]


I have mine set to bitstream for all tracks, but TrueHD and DTS-MA. The PS3 decodes the TrueHD track, but in bitstream, doesn't it send it out as a standard DD soundtrack? Doesn't the PS3 need to be on LPCM on the TrueHD track, to get the bit for bit PCM track correctly sent? My receiver Pioneer Elite (1.2a HDMI) says DD when I bitstream that track out, but says PCM, when I choose LPCM on the PS3. It is the only time I change the setting. Am I missing something?

[DaViD Boulet]

I think over HDMI the PS3 might auto-decode the DolbyTrueHD regardless of the PCM/bitstream setting. Not sure though since I don't have an HDMI receiver!

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

I think over HDMI the PS3 might auto-decode the DolbyTrueHD regardless of the PCM/bitstream setting. Not sure though since I don't have an HDMI receiver!

Maybe, I don't have a PS3, so I can't say for sure, but I would think that it would have to be set to PCM, otherwise, if you wanted to listen to the DD, even if just for comparison's sake, how would you do it?

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by jcs913

I have mine set to bitstream for all tracks, but TrueHD and DTS-MA. The PS3 decodes the TrueHD track, but in bitstream, doesn't it send it out as a standard DD soundtrack? Doesn't the PS3 need to be on LPCM on the TrueHD track, to get the bit for bit PCM track correctly sent? My receiver Pioneer Elite (1.2a HDMI) says DD when I bitstream that track out, but says PCM, when I choose LPCM on the PS3. It is the only time I change the setting. Am I missing something?

No, you are correct. This is exactly how my Panasonic DMP-BD10 works as well. Any player that doesn't have HDMI 1.3 (and the proper HDMI 1.3 at that) cannot stream the advanced codecs, so therefore you have to set the player to PCM, otherwise it will just send DD or (in the case of the Panny and DTS-HD HR content) the dts core.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

Actually, optical/coax can do 48/24 5.1 LPCM, and tops out at 96/24 2.0, IIRC. Some receivers may or may not then add a .1 or 'LFE' channel, meaning, do bass management, on a LPCM 96/24 signal.

Optical nor coaxial cannot pass anymore than two channels of PCM. Neither have enough bandwidth. Dts and DD can pass through these channels because both do not have the bandwidth to exceed this output. 2.0 of 24/96 would not have a LFE channel, so bass managment is not an option.

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Optical nor coaxial cannot pass anymore than two channels of PCM. Neither have enough bandwidth. Dts and DD can pass through these channels because both do not have the bandwidth to exceed this output. 2.0 of 24/96 would not have a LFE channel, so bass managment is not an option.

What? Doesn't DVD support up to 48/24 PCM in 5.1, I know it isn't all just to be passed as analogue. In fact, there are some, extremely rare though they are, components that pass 192/24 PCM in stereo via s/pdif-toslink - why wouldn't it do 48/24 5.1? As for Bass Management with 96/24 LPCM 2.0, you are mistaken. It is definitely dependent on the component for sure. If it can handle it, will do bass management, if it can't it won't. My Denon DVD-2200 universal player has a setting that allows me to add LFE to a 2-channel signal, be it 96/24 or otherwise. My Sony SCD-XA9000ES does this with 2-channel SACDs as well. However, for whatever reason, my Sony DA4ES AVR will not apply bass management (or PLII or dts:neo or any other processing) to any 96/24 signal.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

What? Doesn't DVD support up to 48/24 PCM in 5.1,

No, it supports 5.1 24/48khz Dts lossy, and 5.1 18-20bit 48khz DD lossy. It does not support incompressed 5.1, as that would exceed the capacity of the output.

I know it isn't all just to be passed as analogue. In fact, there are some, extremely rare though they are, components that pass 192/24 PCM in stereo via s/pdif-toslink - why wouldn't it do 48/24 5.1?

The bandwidth of 2.0 stereo 24/192khz would not be exceeded on toslink or coaxial. However anything over two channels would exceed the bandwidth of the output.

As for Bass Management with 96/24 LPCM 2.0, you are mistaken. It is definitely dependent on the component for sure. If it can handle, it will do bass management, if it can't it won't. My Denon DVD-2200 universal player has a setting that allows me to add LFE to a 2-channel signal, be it 96/24 or otherwise. My Sony SCD-XA9000ES does this with 2-channel SACDs as well.

Well actually I am not. A 2.0 stereo signal would not have a LFE channel to bass manage. A 2.1 signal would. There is a huge difference between using DSP's that insert a filter to channel the bass below X frequency to the subwoofer and a LFE channel. A LFE channel has to be created and monitored, a filter(or DSP based crossover) just channels whatever low bass frequencies that are in the stereo signal to the sub. Dolby surround (2.0 stereo) does not have a LFE channel, but filters are used to direct the low bass to the subwoofer.

You are not adding anything, you are redirecting what is already there at X frequency to a sub. A LFE channel is created in the studio, and does not require a filter at all except that which the encoder imposes.

However, for whatever reason, my Sony DA4ES AVR will not apply bass management (or PLII or dts:neo or any other processing) to any 96/24 signal.

It probably does not have the processing power to handle signals over 48khz

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

No, it supports 5.1 24/48khz Dts lossy, and 5.1 18-20bit 48khz DD lossy. It does not support incompressed 5.1, as that would exceed the capacity of the output.

Come to think of it, I may have been confusing the DVD and DVD-A specs.

Well actually I am not. A 2.0 stereo signal would not have a LFE channel to bass manage. A 2.1 signal would. There is a huge difference between using DSP's that insert a filter to channel the bass below X frequency to the subwoofer and a LFE channel. A LFE channel has to be created and monitored, a filter(or DSP based crossover) just channels whatever low bass frequencies that are in the stereo signal to the sub. Dolby surround (2.0 stereo) does not have a LFE channel, but filters are used to direct the low bass to the subwoofer.

I know what an LFE channel is, (I record and mix in multichannel on a daily basis) however, in the realm of consumer gear, that still falls under Bass Management, even if it is just redirecting low frequencies. It is, essentially, creating an LFE. 'Reprocessing', if you will. Where do you find the settings for this feature on most gear? Under Bass Management, because that is what it is. It is managing the bass frequencies.