Helpful chart for choosing TV size/resolution

[dobyblue]

You can get 23" reference 1920x1200 monitor from Barco.
http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/pr...asp?gennr=1990
LED backlit and 120Hz refresh rate.

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by MoPe

Smallest 1080p TV I know is 26".

There are also the Samsung TOC series monitors with HDMI, HDCP, and TV-tuner at 22" and 24" that are 1080p. Price is $400+ for the smaller.

So what is the 22" TV I linked above?

[MoPe]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

So what is the 22" TV I linked above?

mmm I don`t know really. The one you linked is 1680x1050. AND it is not ToC like I mentioned.

Anthing else?

[enialal]

Guys how far should I sit from the TV if I want to see a difference from 720p and 1080p on a Sony Bravia 40" W Series. A topic just stimulated my curiosity so please explain it in a way that I can easily understand.

[Johnny Vinyl]

I live with an 8ft viewing distance at home, so when I go in to look at HDTV's I normally stand that distance away as well. I have NOT been able to tell a real difference. I should state that I'm only a casual movie viewer, so my eyes aren't trained to detect minute differences. I have found that once I approach the 5ft. mark I can see a difference. The significant increase in pixels on a 1080p set start to shine through at that point for me.

[enialal]

Oh ok. 5 feet it is right?

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by enialal

Oh ok. 5 feet it is right?

Yes! But remember though! YOUR eyes are different! What I see may not be what you see.

[ground chuck]

some people would argue that on a 40" display that they'd see no difference between 720p and 1080p. as said above, it depends on you.

[rattyfinky]

I have a 42' Philips 1080i set, I sit were I want and see no difference at all,well except if I stick my nose to the screen that is. Looks great wherever

[U4K61]

Originally Posted by laddie

is 1080i equivalent to 720p ??

No, it is not when 1080i is deinterlaced correctly to 1080p. It has twice the spatial resolution as 720p.

Table of Symbols
Equivalence

Statement
Classified as eather True or False, from this we build up logic and can be represented on a Truth Table using Boolean Logic with the following symbols.

• NOT p, ~p - One logical value
• Conjunction - AND
• Disjunction - OR
• Implication - p implies q, p → g
• Equality - p EQ g, p ⇔ q
• Disjunction - p XOR q, p+q
• NAND - p NAND q
• NOR - p NOR q

Commutative: (p and q) ⇔ (q and p), (p or q) ⇔(q or q)
Associative: [p and (q and r)] ⇔ [(p and q) and r], [p or (q or r)] ⇔ [(p or q) or r]
Distributive: [p and (q or r)] ⇔ [(p and q) or (p and r)], p or (q and r)] ⇔ [(p or q) and (p or r)]

Universal Quantifier, ∀ For all...
Existential Quantifier, ∃ There exists at least one...
Uniqueness Quantifier, ∃! There exists exactly one...

Set builder notation
the set of all elements x such that x...
{x:x > 0} or {x|x > 0}; the set of all x such that x is greater then 0.

Some common set operations on well defined sets A and B
Union: A ∪ B = {a : a∈A or a∈B}
Intersection: A ∩ B = {a : a∈A and a∈B}
Difference: A - B = {a : a∈A and a∉B}; EX: R \ Q = J
Relative Complement: A \ B = {a : a∈A and a∉B}; EX: R \ Q = J
Cartesian Product: A X B = {(a,b) : a∈A and b∈B}

Binary Relations
A realtionship between pairs of things. A Binary Relation on set S is the set of all ordered pairs or the Cartesian Product S^2 = SxS.

Functions and equivalence relations
The binary equivalence relation in Abstract Algebra: A Subset R of a cartesian product of some set S, SxS. Read 'a is related to b by R': aRb or a~b.
Reflexive: aRa for every a in S. ∀a∈S, (a,a)∈R. States that something is equal to itself.
Symmetric: if aRb, then bRa. ∀a,b∈S, (a,b)∈R → (b,a)∈R. Allows us to switch the left and right sides of an equation.
Transitive: if aRb and bRc, then aRc. ∀a,b,c∈S, (a,b)∈R and (b,c)∈R → (a,c)∈R. Tansfers along chains of realations.

EX: Let T be a set of rectangles in a place, define R as the set
R = {(a,b): a∈T, b∈T, a and b are congruent}.
Reflexive, aRa is congruent to itself.
Symmetric, a and b, and b and a are congruent.
Transitive, a and c are congruent.

EX: Let L be a set of lines in a plane and define R as the set
R = {(a,b): a,b∈L, a is perpendicular to b}.
L is not equivalant because it does not satisfy all three:
Reflexive, line a is not perpendicular to itself.
Symmetric, a and b, b and a are perpendicular.
Transitive, a and c are parallel.

EX: congruence mod 5.
aRb. a congruent to b(mod 5); b -a is divisible by 5; 5/b -a
Reflexive, 5/a-a=0
Symmetric, 5/b-a and 5/a-b since a-b= -(b-a)
Transitive, 5/b-a and 5/c-b and 5/c-a since c-a = (c-b)+(b-a)


Glossery
¬ - negation operator NOT ¬(¬A) ⇔ A, x ≠ y ⇔ ¬(x = y).
∧ - conjunction operator AND
∨ - disjunction operator OR
⊕ - XOR
∈ - is an element of.
∉ - is not an element of.
→ - implication, if … then. x = 2 ⇒ x^2 = 4.
⇔ iff, A is true if B is true and A is false if B is false, x+5 = y+2 ⇔ x+3 = y
a ~ b means (and equivalently
∀ - for all. Universal qunatification. ∀ x: P(x), ∀ n∈N: n^2 ≥ n.
∃ - there exists. Existential quantification. ∃ n ∈N: n is even.
∃! - there exists exactly one. Uniqueness qunatification. ∃! n∈N: n + 5 = 2n.
∴ - therefore. All humans are mortal. Socrates is a human. ∴ Socrates is mortal
∵ - because; since. '3331 is prime ∵ it has no positive integer factors other than itself and one' (Wiki)
■ - Q.E.D.

De Morgan's Laws (E∪F)' = E'∩F', (E∩F)' = E'∪F'
¬(P∨Q) ⇔ (¬P) ∧ (¬Q)
¬(P∧Q) ⇔ (¬P) ∨ (¬Q)

Congruence
A similarity between objects, but not a complete equivalence. In geometry, two figures are congruent if they have the same shape and size.



Next Post Equivlence: 720 and 1080i/p

[U4K61]

So we ask something about 720p,1080i, and 1080p originating from 24fps film.
Implication: p→g
Equivalence: p⇔g

If we deinterlace 1080i and remove the unwanted frames, we can map 1080i 1:1 to 1080p frame for frame so it is bijective, thus 1080i⇔1080p. 1080i is equivalent to 1080p. Functions f(x) can produce 1080i→1080p→1080i→1080p→1080i→1080p which are lossless reversable mappings and do not degrage PQ, provided of course, the rest of the system is doing what it should.
1080i to 1080p to 1080i is Bijective:

1080p→720p does not map 1:1, so it is a one way trip. 1080p is down-converted to 720p by a surjective function where every point in the codomain of 720p for a given value f(x) can be represented by either one or more then one point from the domain 1080p. It can never be recovered to back 1080p from 720p because f(x) is injective and not one-to-one to 1080p, meaning some points in the codomain 1080p will never be mapped to from the domain 720p. The lossy non-reversable injective mappings of 1080p→720p→1080p→720 will degrade PQ. Likewise, injective non one-to-one 480p mappings by some function to 1080p can't produce Near 1080p HD Quality, it can only be smoothed over. You can't create new data points.

Functions mapping 1080p to 720p are surjective: onto but not one-to-one.
Functions mapping 720p to 1080p are injective: one-to-one but not onto.
Functions mapping 1080i to 1080p are bijective: one-to-one and onto.

1080p, 1080i, and 720p can produce a similar picture on a 720p set.
1080p, 1080i can be equivalent on a 1080p set, but not 720p.

Originally Posted by dobyblue

1080p24 converts to 1080i60 and back to 1080p24 again WITH NO LOSS when a set passes 3:2 and deinterlacing tests simultaneously like the Pioneer KURO panels do.

Take an HD DVD player with 1080i-only output like the A2, beside the Sony BDP-S300 and play a movie with the exact same video encode like Harry Potter, I Am Legend, etc. Play them both on a Pioneer PDP-6010FD.

The Pioneer hooked up to the Sony will show the 1080p24 content at 72Hz.
The Pioneer hooked up to the Toshiba will take the 1080i60 signal, convert it to 1080p24 and display it at 72Hz.

Identical in every way, shape and form. No increase in sharpness or resolution.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/techn...concerned.html


1080p24 = 1080i60 = 1080p24 = 1080i60
You can go between the two all day long like .wav to .flac with no loss.

Glossery

Types of Functions f:A → B
Let set A = domain, set B = range
A General Function points from each member of A to a member of B.
A appears as the first component of one and only one ordered pair and maps A into B.

Injective (eather one-to-one and not onto or one-to-one and onto [Bijective])
Each element of B is associated with only one element in A meaning every element of the function's codomain is mapped to by at most one element of its domain; some of the elements in B may not be mapped by A. Injective functions can be reversed. If all of the elements in the codomain are mapped to by some element of the domain, then the function is bijective.

Surjective (eather onto and not one-to-one or onto and one-to-one[Bijective])
sur is from french french meaning over or above. Every B has at least one matching A. It is function whose image is equal to its codomain, meaning all of the elements in B are mapped to by some element of A. If every element of B of f, then f is a function from A onto B.
EX: f : Z → {0,1} where f(n) = n mod 2. Maps even integers to 0 and odd integers to 1.

Bijective (one-to-one and onto [one-to-one correspondence])
A bijection from the set A to the set B has an inverse function from B to A. If A and B are finite sets, then they have the same number of elements.

Set partitions
a set P is a partition of S iff, it does not contain the empty set and:
1. ∪P = S. The union of the elements of P is equal to or covers S.
2. A ∩ B = 0 if A∈P, B∈P, A not equal to B. The intersection of any two distinct elements of P is empty or pairwise disjoint.

Resolution
1080i/p = 1920x1080 or 2,073,600 pixels
720p = 1280x720 or 921,600 pixels
480p = 720x480 or 345,600 pixels


Next Post Equivalence Class

[U4K61]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Unfortunately not all 120Hz sets work like Sony's motionflow sets do.
A lot will take the 24Hz signal, use 3:2 pulldown to get to 60Hz, then use 2:2 pulldown to get to 120Hz.

120hz Explained - stockstar1138


Equivalence Class:
By deffinition: a subset of the form {x is an element of X: xRa, where a is an element of X and xRy is the relation between x and y; Continuing on with the Reflexive, Symmetric and Transitive axioms:

Consider the ratio 3(2^n):2(2^n), let n = 0,1,2,3.
n = 0, 2^n = 1, 3(1):2(1) = 3:2 = 3:2
n = 1, 2^n = 2, 3(2):2(2) = 6:4 = 3:2
n = 2, 2^n = 4, 3(4):2(4) = 12:8 = 3:2
n = 3, 2^n = 8, 3(8):2(8) = 24:16 = 3:2
In this equivalence class, it remains a ratio of 3:2 regardless of n.

Also true for 1:1 square pixel 16:9 images: 720p and 1080i/p, are equivalent because they have the same aspect ratio, a contradiction from the first post where 720p is not equivalent to 1080i/p. Yet both are correct. I just pulled out the rug from under you and changed the rules! Takes a while to understand what is meant by 'a is related to b by R'

"Welcome to the Rock" - Sean Connery

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

no. 120hz is the magic number.
tv broadcasts are done in 60 frames per second.
so a blu-ray encoded at 1080p24, the tv will take the image and repeat 5 times
and a broadcast broadcasted at 720p60, the tv will take the image and repeat 2 times.
120hz is so great because both 60 (tv) and 24 (blu-ray) are factors of the number.
both tv and blu-ray are shown in their native forms.

Next Post Frame Rates

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Craig Ruchman

This equivalence class shows why this multiple of 24 results in 3:2 judder regardless of the Hz.

The concept isn't multiples of 24. It's common whole number multiples of 24 and 60.

The pure rate conversion (no interpolation) doesn't change the nature of the judder. So, 24 -> CommonMult(24, 60) will have 24 fps judder. And 60Hz -> CommonMult(24, 60) will have 3:2 judder for film, and 30fps judder for video.

Judder is caused by the jumps between the frames (3:2 is especially annoying because of the changing smoothness of the jumps). Unless the source rate is beyond human perception (or motion interpolation pushes it there), there will be judder.

Gary

[U4K61]

The Frame Rates Post

Prime Number
A positive integer, p > 1, that can only be divided by 1 or itself (p).
The first few primes are 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, ...
See the Sieve of Eratosthenes

The Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic (or Unique-Prime-Factorization Theorem)
Any integer greater than 1 can be written as a unique product of prime numbers. 3:2 are prime numbers that are divisible by one or itself. They can't be divided up or broken down into smaller integer whole numbers.

Greatest Common Divisor, GCD(a,b)
Examples: GCD(3,7) = 1, GCD(24,60) = 1, GCD(24,120) = 24
Using GCD(24,120) a = 3*2*2*2 = 24, b = 5*3*2*2*2 = 120. The overlap is 3*2*2*2 = 24

Originally Posted by Branden

...but regarding displaying a 24fps film, how does 240Hz help? on a 120Hz TV a single frame will use up 5 cycles, on a 240Hz TV a single frame will use up 10 cycles, it'll still be the same 24fps to the eye:

120Hz 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3-
240Hz 111111111122222222223333333333

Other Posts

• 3:2 Pulldown - Craig

Back to 1080i/p

[kevinokev]

I've always based a correct viewing distance of twice the size the tv.
52 inch tv should have you sitting no closer than 104 inches or 8.6 feet...

Go Figure.

[Steelmaker]

The screen size vs distance you sit should be so that you "lose yourself" in the picture without having to avert your eyes from one part of the screen and focus them on another to see it all. If you're literally having to turn your head as if you were watching a tennis match to see the whole picture, you're too close or your tv is too big for your viewing area.

My set is 60" and I sit approximately 8' 3" from the screen. According to the chart I'm well within the suggested range so I'd say this chart is pretty accurate. At least for my preference.

[rmm2112]

I have an older 720P Toshiba (52HM84). The screen size is 52". Playing standard DVD's look pretty good (seating is anywhere from 8-11 feet away) My question is -- will I notice a difference with a Blu-ray source given my type of screen and seating distance. I cannot make seating any further of closer. I;ve been looking at the chart but just cannot tell if I would benefit anything in detail with my current setup. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by rmm2112

I have an older 720P Toshiba (52HM84). The screen size is 52". Playing standard DVD's look pretty good (seating is anywhere from 8-11 feet away) My question is -- will I notice a difference with a Blu-ray source given my type of screen and seating distance. I cannot make seating any further of closer. I;ve been looking at the chart but just cannot tell if I would benefit anything in detail with my current setup. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Check here.....

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=93817


A simple answer, is "yes" the perceivable "jump" from 480p (DVD) to 720p (Blu-ray) is much bigger than 720p to 1080p in my opinion....

I have three displays, 32" 37" and 106" all run 720p or 1080i, and I have varying seating distances.... but either way, I find the difference between DVD and Blu-ray IMMENSE on my 37" set so I would think you would be shocked at the jump in resolution you'll notice on your 52" set (what is your viewing distance by the way?)

Either way.... I'm not one of these people saying "DVD LOOKS TERRIBLE" because I think many DVDs look fantastic...... but once you see some solid Blu-ray transfers.... you'll see much more contrast, brighter more vivid colors etc. etc....

52" 720p set, I'd jump on a $200 blu-ray player in a heartbeat.... worth every penny.... plus, movies are affordable if you just shop around, or rent.

[rmm2112]

Great info Beta Man -- thanks for the link, and your own personal observations with 720P

[Apostile]

I think what we would need to know is what you plan on using the TV for. Do you play video games? You'll need HDMI ports to get the most out of the TV. I don't know if they have fully fixed the burn-in issues plasmas were having, but if you play games for long periods of time, you might want to avoid plasma (assuming it hasn't been fixed). What do you watch on it? HD TV? High Definition movies? You'll need at least 720p resolution for those. Do you watch sports? I'd recommend a 120hz TV (or better) if you watch a lot of sports.

Also, look into DLP TVs, especially LED DLPs. When I was shopping for my TV, I found that for the price I could get a 40" LCD or plasma, I could get a 65" DLP TV, with all the bells and whistles the others had. The downside to DLP is that it uses a lamp (much like a projection TV) which can burn out often needs to be replaced, but the LED lamps last about 10-15 years at normal viewing. I wouldn't go DLP unless it was an LED lamp. I couldn't be happier with my LED DLP.