Which is better, streaming 480p H.264 with very good internet, or DVD 480i MPEG-2?

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I have no direct experience with Apple, but I have seen nothing in print that quantifies the bitrate increase that you are claiming. Apple has always been among the best streaming providers in terms of their bitrates, but I have not read anything that quantifies an improvement to their HD streams.

See e.g. here:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=7243

As for Amazon, they are the most, and only, problematic streaming provider that I ever used. Despite having ample internet bandwidth and despite having no problems with any other streaming provider, Amazon can not maintain a consistent HD stream, yet alone a 4K stream, even over my wired network.

I have never had any such issues with Amazon. I just recently streamed the 4th season of The Expanse and it was excellent.

Some content that still languishes in SD has serious source limitations; video tape sources in particular for some vintage TV shows, but many were also shot on actual film stock. MASH (the TV series) looks sad on DVD despite having been filmed on 35mm film; it deserves better.

Indeed. I would love to have proper HD versions of Sledge Hammer!, Space Above & Beyond, Tour of Duty and a number of other shows. Sadly, it will likely never happen and we're saddled with material that even the best encoding will not turn into good quality.

I will not respond to your remaining remarks since we really don't need another "physical vs. digital" thread.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

See e.g. here:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=7243
I have never had any such issues with Amazon. I just recently streamed the 4th season of The Expanse and it was excellent.
Indeed. I would love to have proper HD versions of Sledge Hammer!, Space Above & Beyond, Tour of Duty and a number of other shows. Sadly, it will likely never happen and we're saddled with material that even the best encoding will not turn into good quality.

I will not respond to your remaining remarks since we really don't need another "physical vs. digital" thread.

No, we have plenty of that in other threads; I agree.

You live in a densely populated area whereas I live in a rural one and I have observed that people living in such areas as you do have less trouble with Amazon. Still, even when Amazon is intermittently delivering its best 4K stream, it still looks worse than most other providers and reliably worse than most of my blu-rays. It is no coincidence that Amazon comes in last in forum member samlop10's detailed comparative post:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...6&postcount=12

The post that you link to is comparing the bitrate of an Apple stream to an Apple download and that is not what I am talking about at all. I had hoped to see evidence that Apple now streams its HD content at a higher bitrate than it streamed it at in, say, 2015, or 2016, etc. I have seen no evidence that any streaming provider has improved their streaming bitrates nor have any of them raised their internet speed requirements to reflect such a change.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The post that you link to is comparing the bitrate of an Apple stream to an Apple download and that is not what I am talking about at all. I had hoped to see evidence that Apple now streams its HD content at a higher bitrate than it streamed it at in, say, 2015, or 2016, etc.

Until last year or so Apple streamed at the same video bitrate as the downloads (around 5 Mbit/s).

I have seen no evidence that any streaming provider has improved their streaming bitrates nor have any of them raised their internet speed requirements to reflect such a change.

I think pretty much all of them have increased their bitrates at various times (e.g. just a few months ago Netflix increased their audio bitrates to 640/786 kbit/s). If the minimum internet speed requirements haven't gone up that doesn't mean much since they all use adaptive streaming anyway these days, so they can serve a lower bitrate stream if the customer doesn't have sufficient speed for the highest tier.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Until last year or so Apple streamed at the same video bitrate as the downloads (around 5 Mbit/s).
I think pretty much all of them have increased their bitrates at various times (e.g. just a few months ago Netflix increased their audio bitrates to 640/786 kbit/s). If the minimum internet speed requirements haven't gone up that doesn't mean much since they all use adaptive streaming anyway these days.

Apple improved their HD streams rather recently then. A pity that the others have not. Netflix still only recommends 5 mbps internet service for their HD streams, Vudu 4.5 mbps, Hulu 6 mbps, and Amazon users recommend 5 mbps.

Adaptive streaming just reacts and adapts to the customer's internet service; at no point does a streaming provider ever come close to offering a stream that takes advantage of the full bandwidth offered by an ISP. I never get a 4K stream at 235 mbps; Netflix never exceeds even 16 Mbps in my experience and those of some professional reviewers. Samlop10's post shows you the best bitrate that you can hope to receive from 7 of the top streaming providers and none of these come close to utilizing the available bandwidth that many of us receive from our ISP. Adaptive streaming is designed to accommodate fluctuating network conditions; conditions which usually deteriorate.

Netflix has most definitely not raised their internet service speed requirements. Adding a few kbits to their audio stream would not necessitate a raise in their overall internet service requirements. Netflix recommends a 25 Mbps connection for their 4K streams the same as they always have. Their 4K streams did not require an increase to their long existing internet service requirements even with this negligible uptick in audio bitrates.

Anyway, I think I will watch some upscaled DVDs tonight as this thread has had me thinking about them. I hope that you enjoy your evening as well.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Apple improved their HD streams rather recently then. A pity that the others have not. Netflix still only recommends 5 mbps internet service for their HD streams, Vudu 4.5 mbps, Hulu 6 mbps, and Amazon recommends an anemic 3.5 mbps.

I just gave you a recent counter example (Netflix audio bitrate). Since none of them publishes available bitrates (which is again not the same as minimum required internet speed) I think we are not really in a position to make such blanket statements (unless you are continuously monitoring their streams).

Adaptive streaming just reacts and adapts to the customer's internet service; at no point does a streaming provider ever come close to offering a stream that takes advantage of the full bandwidth offered by an ISP.

That doesn't mean they can't offer higher bitrates than the published minimum requirements at any given resolution.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

I just gave you a recent counter example (Netflix audio bitrate). Since none of them publishes available bitrates (which is again not the same as minimum required internet speed) I think we are not really in a position to make such blanket statements (unless you are continuously monitoring their streams).
That doesn't mean they can't offer higher bitrates than the published minimum requirements at any given resolution.

The bitrates that they offer have been tested and verified by both professional review sites and by several of our forum members on repeated occasions with every level of internet service in multiple locales. Samlop10's results are consistent with what I have read from several sources, both here on these forums and on professional review sites alike, and his results align with my own observations where applicable. We have ample data from a legion of sources putting us in a perfect position to state these bitrates. I do not continuously monitor anything, other than disc sale prices, because collectively others do it for me.

No streaming provider recommends an internet connection of "X" Mbps for a given resolution while secretly delivering you more if you have the bandwidth. The testing done by many, many people has already proven what the delivered bitrates are time and time again.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

No streaming provider recommends an internet connection of "X" Mbps for a given resolution while secretly delivering you more if you have the bandwidth. The testing done by many, many people has already proven what the delivered bitrates are time and time again.

I just played "Joker" in 1080p through Amazon Video with activated ATV4 developer HUD. It showed an average video bitrate around 8-9 Mbit/s, which is more than twice of what you said they recommend above. I can't test Netflix and Hulu since I'm currently not subscribed.