Edgewood Teacher Resigns Over Bar "Field Trip"

[brettallica]

Originally Posted by aramis109

So high school kids shouldn't be going to bars? The law says otherwise in this case. Additionally, propriety differs from each person. I can imagine multiple scenarios (such as the one that robin painted) where I see this as being proper, and a way to show kids that they are not alone. We want teachers to have an active part in students' lives, and maybe this was an extreme case where she saw it as a viable option.

I just think that some folks are so quick to pass judgement, that this teacher never had a chance. Again, it's why I sure as hell wouldn't do it if I was in the same boat. It's guaranteed that she was told to resign or be fired.

High school kids (as long as they're 18) can go to bars in this case, as the law allows it in that city/county/state/whatever. That is definitely not the question. Should a teacher take their students to bars? That is the question. My answer is: no, they shouldn't.

...and let it be known that I'm not passing judgment toward anyone. I disagree with what the teacher did. I'm sure she's a fine, upstanding citizen, as I have no reason to believe otherwise. I just wouldn't have made that same choice if I were her.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by brettallica

High school kids (as long as they're 18) can go to bars in this case, as the law allows it in that city/county/state/whatever. That is definitely not the question. Should a teacher take their students to bars? That is the question. My answer is: no, they shouldn't.

...and let it be known that I'm not passing judgment toward anyone. I disagree with what the teacher did. I'm sure she's a fine, upstanding citizen, as I have no reason to believe otherwise. I just wouldn't have made that same choice if I were her.

Oh, I wouldn't have either, but for different reasons. She's doomed in that state to teach.

To me, it depends on what was the nature of the trip- was it to go out and have fun, or was it to go out and see that there is another culture out there, that there are other options for gay people? If it was just to party, then yeah I take umbrage with it as well. She's not there to be their BFF, she's there to be a teacher and mentor. If it was the latter, then I don't have a problem with it personally.

I assume that more will come out as time goes on but to me that's the crux of the issue- lack of information.

[brettallica]

Originally Posted by aramis109

Oh, I wouldn't have either, but for different reasons. She's doomed in that state to teach.

To me, it depends on what was the nature of the trip- was it to go out and have fun, or was it to go out and see that there is another culture out there, that there are other options for gay people? If it was just to party, then yeah I take umbrage with it as well. She's not there to be their BFF, she's there to be a teacher and mentor. If it was the latter, then I don't have a problem with it personally.

I assume that more will come out as time goes on but to me that's the crux of the issue- lack of information.

Yes, all good points. I'm sure there's a ton of detail that's missing with this. I have no problem with a teacher exposing their students to other lifestyles (or even ones that may particularly pertain to them), but surely there could have been a better choice than a bar. Then again, though, we're getting back to the supposition thing. I don't think we really know why the teach took the students to the bar.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by brettallica

Yes, all good points. I'm sure there's a ton of detail that's missing with this. I have no problem with a teacher exposing their students to other lifestyles (or even ones that may particularly pertain to them), but surely there could have been a better choice than a bar.

Sadly... if her specific aim was to help the kids not feel so isolated.... and to be sure I am purely speculating on this based on my own experiences with young gay people... then there may NOT have been any other options. I live in a metropolitan area of almost half a million people and we JUST got a gay community center about 3 years ago. It's great for kids who are not old enough to get into bars or for adults who just aren't into the bar scene. But for the majority of communities that lack something like this... "the gay bar" truly is the only place to go and "be yourself" without fear of being bullied, ridiculed or far worse.

I think the teacher did make a mistake... but what she did is far from "apalling" and I don't think she deserves to be crucified for it.

[Another_Dude]

How about we take the gay thing out of it, as we're dealing with a government employee, "person of authority" laws, and underage drinking.


Male teacher takes four male students to the bar: Fired.

Female teacher takes four make students to the bar: Fired, possible Lifetime movie.

Male teacher takes four female students to the bar: Fired, possible Lifetime movie that is much different than the other one.

Female teacher takes four female students to the bar: Fired.


Just like the cop vs. Ryan Moats case, it doesn't matter to me which laws (if any) were broken as your authority:common sense ratio is way too out of line for you to continue with this job.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by Another_Dude

How about we take the gay thing out of it, as we're dealing with a government employee, "person of authority" laws, and underage drinking.


Male teacher takes four male students to the bar: Fired.

Female teacher takes four make students to the bar: Fired, possible Lifetime movie.

Male teacher takes four female students to the bar: Fired, possible Lifetime movie that is much different than the other one.

Female teacher takes four female students to the bar: Fired.


Just like the cop vs. Ryan Moats case, it doesn't matter to me which laws (if any) were broken as your authority:common sense ratio is way too out of line for you to continue with this job.

Why remove it when it is CLEARLY part of the story.

I'm not even saying she doesn't deserve to be suspended or even fired if she KNEW the youngest was only 17 AND if she KNEW that any of them consumed alcohol.

What I am saying is that it is not fair to assume this teacher was just being stupid, when it is equally as likely that she was trying to do something good and it just backfired on her.

I'm not sure your whole "person of authority" assumption even figures in when the parents did give their permission.

[jadedeath]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

Why remove it when it is CLEARLY part of the story.

Extremely fair point, that's like taking the gender aspect out of it and saying a teacher brought 4 students to a bar.

I'm not even saying she doesn't deserve to be suspended or even fired if she KNEW the youngest was only 17 AND if she KNEW that any of them consumed alcohol.

What I am saying is that it is not fair to assume this teacher was just being stupid, when it is equally as likely that she was trying to do something good and it just backfired on her.

I'm not sure your whole "person of authority" assumption even figures in when the parents did give their permission.

Suspended, sure, hell, even WITHOUT pay, but firing people is the last possible resort.

Logan

[brettallica]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

Sadly... if her specific aim was to help the kids not feel so isolated.... and to be sure I am purely speculating on this based on my own experiences with young gay people... then there may NOT have been any other options. I live in a metropolitan area of almost half a million people and we JUST got a gay community center about 3 years ago. It's great for kids who are not old enough to get into bars or for adults who just aren't into the bar scene. But for the majority of communities that lack something like this... "the gay bar" truly is the only place to go and "be yourself" without fear of being bullied, ridiculed or far worse.

I think the teacher did make a mistake... but what she did is far from "apalling" and I don't think she deserves to be crucified for it.

That's unfortunate that your community is that way. I know from my own personal experience that mine is not. We have a lot of gay people here (is it OK to say it that way? I hope that's not offensive sounding to you), and they're just like normal folk around here. I lived and am good friends with a gay woman, so it's not like I'm just some guy who's coming in here and being "that guy" who doesn't get it. I get gay, and I'm more than OK, understanding, tolerant, etc. of the gay culture. I even hesitate to refer to it as "the gay culture" because here, "THE culture" is quite simply homogeneous in that gay people and straight people hang out together all the time and neither is considered "out of place" when hanging out with the other.

Anyone who knows about Santa Cruz and my area of the Bay Area knows about how gays are accepted here. There are the occasional intolerants in my neck of the woods, of course, but that's to be expected anywhere in the world.

Anyway, if you just break it down for what it is, to me it is pretty much unacceptable.

Take away the sexes of all involved:

Teacher takes students to bar.

Does that seem OK to you? Not "you" as in robinandtami necessarily, but to all involved in this conversation.

[Marine Mike]

I think that the mom in the article said it all:

Stevie Moon-Mom, "She's a teacher, they're her students. They're not her friends. She's there to teach them, not to take them to clubs and party. That's ridiculous."

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by brettallica

Anyone who knows about Santa Cruz and my area of the Bay Area knows about how gays are accepted here. There are the occasional intolerants in my neck of the woods, of course, but that's to be expected anywhere in the world.

Anyway, if you just break it down for what it is, to me it is pretty much unacceptable.

Take away the sexes of all involved:

Teacher takes students to bar.

Does that seem OK to you? Not "you" as in robinandtami necessarily, but to all involved in this conversation.

LOL... yeah... it's ok to call gay people gay.

Unfortunately.. the rest of the country isn't quite as aware as southern California.... imagine that I'm sure that many of the gay people you know may have even come from other parts of the country just to live in a more open society. I know here in the south many gay people move from their podunk towns to the larger cities just to have access to the luxury of a gay bar as it is often the only way to meet peers and potential mates.

[brettallica]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

LOL... yeah... it's ok to call gay people gay.

Unfortunately.. the rest of the country isn't quite as aware as southern California.... imagine that I'm sure that many of the gay people you know may have even come from other parts of the country just to live in a more open society. I know here in the south many gay people move from their podunk towns to the larger cities just to have access to the luxury of a gay bar as it is often the only way to meet peers and potential mates.

I just meant in the sense that I didn't mean for it to sound like "gay people" are "those people" or somehow "totally different from the norm" or whatever, because like I said, it's pretty much no difference to me and my intention isn't to lump a group of people together just because they share a trait...at least in this conversation that's not my intent anyway. I can't seem to word that correctly so hopefully you catch what I'm saying.

You are right about people moving to where I live to be able to live more freely. I couldn't tell you numbers or percentage-wise how much it happens, but I know it does. There's a good amount of podunk in California as well, and I know gay doesn't go over well in those parts.