The uselessness of dual layer

[Chris Beveridge]

For anyone who has been following a number of threads elsewhere recently, is it just me or do many of those who aren't actively purchasing BD releases seem to have changed their meme recently? With so many dual layered BD discs being announced, including titles from Warner that just barely go over the 25 mark, dual layer is being denounced as useless and just for extras.

The previous meme, as most recall, alternated between dual layer being science fiction, incredibly rare, for really long movies only and probably a few other things. Now they don't mean anything at all because Warner is going to just put 30gb HD DVD releases on there.

There are two things to understand about this. First, it means that dual-format companies aren't quite so restricted in releasing on BD in that they don't have to sacrifice on extras or audio. They can just be like EA Games and port to both and be done with it. Even if it's minimal, it provides balance.

The more important thing is that dual layer will give the single-format companies a chance to really shine. Since they will NOT be restricted to a 30gb limit they can go much bigger and grander. Fox, Sony, Disney and independents doing BD only will be able to work on their releases without worry of making sure they can fit on both formats. Just like with video games, WB, Paramount will be reliable releases on both formats. But just like MS, Sony and Nintendo, "first party games" will be the ones that will be the key draws to the format.

Right now, HD DVD has key draws of Universal titles and WB titles with IME. Once November hits and Fox provides its key draws, Sony gets a few more announcements out and Disney gets rolling, we're going to be in a treasure of riches.

I'm just excited and get more so each day.

[Dave]

Not again!
Haven't you been here all that time since everyone thought that 16MB memory will be too much, that 10GB HDD was is useless and waste of money?That 650MB CD is too big? ... and so on

Come on! We live in ever expanding world (in every sence).

Now (even before the beginig) the movies are 27-28GB. What is HD DVD going to do when these movies just cant fit on HD DVD disc? They dont yet have even a prototype of 45GB disc (not to mention how much it will cost)...

The cost of BLU-RAY per GB is lower than HD DVD.
This (BD) future proof thing is the only way that will save your (so badly protected) pocket from throwing once again money for another format in 1-2 years...

Get real. We need it!, desperately!

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by Dave

Now (even before the beginig) the movies are 27-28GB. What is HD DVD going to do when these movies just cant fit on HD DVD disc? They dont yet have even a prototype of 45GB disc (not to mention how much it will cost)...

I agree with the sentiment, but we need to stick to the facts.

So far I have not heard of a single movie, by itself, which has exceeded 25 GB when encoded with VC-1 or AVC. All the disks of which I am aware that have exceeded 25 GB in total data have done so by including "extras" of some kind.

This does not mean that features won't exceed 25 GB. They most definitely will when studios decide to go for the highest quality and/or longer duration movies.

I have read several reports from credible sources over the last year that there actually are lab versions of the 45 GB HD DVD disks. (I haven't checked into this personally.) However, I've read nowhere when those might become available to the consumer (months? years? never?). Also, since 45 GB HD DVD disks are not part of the current HD DVD standard no currently shipping (or even shipping within the next few months) HD DVD players are likely to be able to support 45 GB disks -- if they ever materialize. (It has more to do with the optics than the firmware. If the optics were not designed and built to support 3 separate layers and read them accurately, a simple firmware "upgrade" is out of the question.)

Conversely, the 50 GB Blu-ray disks are part of the specification. Any system shipping which claims to be fully compliant with the spec must be able to read 50 GB disks.

Another way to look at the issue:
IIRC the Blu-ray standard allows for up to 40 Mbps for video and up to 24.5 Mbps for audio. Studios may really start to use that bandwidth in order to proclaim they really do have the best possible experience. One sobering thought: At these bit rates even a 50 GB Blu-ray disk won't support a full two hour movie on a single disk. So, maybe we should all be pushing for the Blu-ray specification team to take 100 GB disks out of the "roadmap" and the "lab" and put them into the specification for consumer products!

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by Shadowself

Also, since 45 GB HD DVD disks are not part of the current HD DVD standard no currently shipping (or even shipping within the next few months) HD DVD players are likely to be able to support 45 GB disks -- if they ever materialize.

I have read that the drive inside the A1 is supposed to be capable of reading the TL discs. This was in an NEC (the A1 drive is an NEC) data sheet.

No idea how real it is though.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Dave

Now (even before the beginig) the movies are 27-28GB. What is HD DVD going to do when these movies just cant fit on HD DVD disc? They dont yet have even a prototype of 45GB disc (not to mention how much it will cost)...

The movies are shrinking in size Dave. Batman Begins is reference level at 13Mbps. This benefits Blu-Ray as well so there's no need to start building strawmen out of datasizes.

Originally Posted by Jazar

This is the final milestone and I'm extrmely anxious to see it pass. Once BDJ comes into full use then HD DVD has NOTHING over BD (as everyone innitially assumed with the given specs).

You mean to tell me you can't think of one thing that HD DVD will have over Blu-Ray? You need to read Sun Tzu because it sounds like you don't know your opponent. Both formats will have advantages over the other. Speaking in absolutes is foolish.

Originally Posted by ProvenFlipper

I think the biggest mistake that HD-DVD fanboys make is that they are living in today's world. 30gb is being filled to the brim as we speak... and BD still has 20gb to go. HD-DVD launched earlier and enjoyed a sucessful launch.

For chrissakes you guys simply refuse to learn. Historically data rates for video decrease as the compressionist gain access to better tools. My first DVDs look like crap at 8+Mpbs and now I've seen DVDs look phenomenal at 4Mbps. The "Maxed out" myth is pure FUD plain and simple. DVDs have only gotten better looking...did the datarate improve? Did they change the spec? No ...movie encoding simply improved to the point where they set new thresholds for refrence level encodes within the available datarate. You all know this is the truth yet you're so eager for affirmation you eschew all common sense.

Originally Posted by ProvenFlipper

Some company also needs to get their own BD authoring tools to create VC-1, as not to have to make a HD-DVD encode first

That's a myth. Studios can write directly to VC-1 for Blu-Ray. The only disadvantage here is that Microsoft doesn't make a tool to take this encode and repurpose to HD DVD (which probably would be trivial but they support HD DVD). If a studio has an inkling to hit both platforms they'll write to HD DVD and then import this into the tool for Blu-Ray support.

Shadowself excellent point. There are ways to make a point without descending into half truths and propaganda. Know thy enemy.

50GB discs IMO are very important. I don't view them as a platform savior though. Only content, affordability and good marketing will produce a victor. Blu-Ray is in the drivers seat they have technical superiority and partnership superiority in many areas. But they cannot be lax.

I will not lie that I'm a HD DVD proponent but if Blu-Ray beats HD DVD in a fair manner then I offer the format as many Kudos as I can. Format wars suck but when there's a victor that victor has likely been chosen by the people and has earned its keep.

[thunderhawk]

We need more storage. Decreasing the storage available, is simply not done.

About BD vs HD DVD, I choose BD because it has the most CE companies supporting them. Not primarily because of the technical superiority but that's a nice bonus, something to become a fanboy for.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

The movies are shrinking in size Dave. Batman Begins is reference level at 13Mbps.

In 1997 TV music-videos were 6-10-30MB

In 1999 DVD music-videos were 250-300MB

In 2006 HD music-videos are 500-750MB


More lossless codecs are here.


I think that IT IS ALL ABOUT THE GYGABYTES! The more memry you have, the better quality, the more data you can save.
GB ALWAYS matter!

[Zvi]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

The movies are shrinking in size Dave.

Some of your arguments are really interesting. So, movies are shrinking in size huh? If anything, movies get longer, runtime that is.
And, yes U can shrink the compressed movie size to whatever you want, by rising the compression ratio, and then claim it is a reference and optimal, although that doesn't make PQ any better.

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Batman Begins is reference level at 13Mbps.

Says who? Dude, HD movies have 6 times the pixels compared to SD. So, you're trying convince us that 13mpbs is the max, best, etc? Compared to 8mbps or 4mbps?

[Jazar]

Good post. Couple comments I'd like to make.

Originally Posted by Chris Beveridge

Right now, HD DVD has key draws of Universal titles and WB titles with IME. Once November hits and Fox provides its key draws, Sony gets a few more announcements out and Disney gets rolling, we're going to be in a treasure of riches.

This is the final milestone and I'm extrmely anxious to see it pass. Once BDJ comes into full use then HD DVD has NOTHING over BD (as everyone innitially assumed with the given specs).

Well there's one more big milestone ("the big one") unrealated to BD spec which is sales. Right now HD DVD is selling better then BD. How much is pure speculation based on Amazon's ranking which is anything but scientific but BD definitely needs to reach a wider audience with cheaper hardware. November will be a big indicator with the release of the PS3 and sales of at least 400k overnight. I should hope that BD titles will jump dramatically and climb from there.

The doomsday scenario is that PS3 will not skyrocket BD sales over HD DVD. With the Xbox 360 addon competiting and the heavy push by Universal and even Warner, the HD DVD sales continue to suprass BD. This, however unlikely, would be nothing short of disasterous.

Regardless CE units better have a dramatic price reduction in 2007 because these $1k+ players will never be mainstream. Januaray's CES event will give a good indication on where these companies stand and hopefully Toshiba will still be the only major HD DVD supplier.

Finally, movie studios need to get off their asses and bring some blockbuster titles to BD. None of this Eight Below or The Big Hit or even Click. I'm talking Spiderman 2, X-men 1-3, Pirates of the Caribbean 1 & 2, Da Vinci Code. Maybe not the highest AAA titles but with 1.3 million PS3 units by the end of the year in the US alone there will be sales if the studios give people something to chew on.

[ProvenFlipper]

Great points Chris!

I think the biggest mistake that HD-DVD fanboys make is that they are living in today's world. 30gb is being filled to the brim as we speak... and BD still has 20gb to go. HD-DVD launched earlier and enjoyed a sucessful launch. BD made the mistake of launching too early as not to give up too much ground to HD-DVD, and they may have or may not have paid dearly for it. When it comes down to it, within a month the releases started looking better, which they should have from the start. The Samsung may have had some bugs, but in comparison to the Toshiba players and their firmware updates, is doing alright.

It will be interesting to see how the holidays are going to play out and CES 2007 is going to fare. I sure hope Disney and LG can stick to their guns and continue to soley support BD. Some company also needs to get their own BD authoring tools to create VC-1, as not to have to make a HD-DVD encode first. That will reduce the temptation to put out a HD-DVD disc. Some other brave souls besides Disney and Fox also need to look into creating AVC encodes. What Disney has shown us so far looks great, so more companies should see this and do the same.

[phloyd]

Yeah it is funny - BD50 was 'never going to happen and essential for the survival of BD'

Now it is no big deal.

And before people wanted the extras in HD. Now it is no big deal.

Reality is that it is probably all irrelevant. But hey it is fun to watch

[Treknology]

There are commercial dual layer DVDs out there where only about 5 minutes of the second layer is used; and there are no extra features added to use up any of the wasted space.