Blu-ray going 1440p and 50Mbs + bitrate ?

[IMind]

Originally Posted by djepic112

Ding, ding, ding! Best response so far. I don't think resolution beyond 1080P will develop for the masses (at least for a VERY LONG time) because most homes don't have television screens that are huge enough to benefit much at all. Seems like it will only be for professional use in editing and later theatrical release.

I basically agree with you. I see any attempt to move beyond 1080p in the near term to be basically marketing driven smoke and mirrors. Upscaling, Toshiba SUC, basically minor improvements at best or pure BS at worst.

[CptGreedle]

Originally Posted by cj-kent

1080p is wonderful on home displays and since that is the limit of all our displays, if not 1080i, then the point is moot. However, as beautiful as 1080p is, it is not anywhere near the resolution of real film and it's only half the resolution of 2k. The theater still wins.

Half the resolution of 2k?
Nonononono. it is much closer than that. 1080 refers to the vertical lines of data on the screen. 2k refers to the horizontal lines of data. A 1080 image is 1920 horizontal. (In fact 1920 is the only size that will not change with aspect ratio except if it is less than 16:9 - most films will fit in 1920 but not always 1080)
2K and 1080 are VERY close. 4K is indeed much better. But you have to realize something, 4k is also on a screen that size of your house (exaggeration). A theater screen has to stretch that resolution way across the entire image plane which means that per inch you will see less data. However you sit farther back so you see less data again if you are not in the optimal range (too far back and you lose more information). An HDTV is much much smaller (typically from about 36" to around 65"). So you see the detail more clearly, sharper, and closer than you can in the theater.
Not to mention that with 1080, we can now see a large amount of grain in film. If you go higher, you are only going to be making that grain sharper, not the image. This is not true with all films but with a lot of them, enough that there really is no benefit to going 4k outside a movie theater size screen.

Take a CLOSE look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UHDV.svg

you can see HDTV 1080p (1920x1080) is almost identical to Digital Cinema - 2K (2048x1080).

[Mikeblu]

Originally Posted by JasonR

They won't make the TVs until broadcast standards change, only way it will happen.

in the UK weve had HD TVS sonce 2002 and no HD broadcasts

[U4K61]

It is the year 2025. It's another soggy rainy Feburary in southern New England. Climate change has made the snowy winters of my childhood a thing of the past. It can now only be viewed in the family album. I slip into our smallish, bearly waist high, two year old white gasoline/electric hybrid. My wife of 25 years follows closley behind. From afar, in well fitting jeans and blouse, she still has the curvy yet slim figure I knew when I met her in her 20s. I press my thumb on a biometric device, and a small blue LED on the instrument cluster indicates the car is on. A second or two later, a holo sonic audio system that mimics engine sounds kicks in to reminde us the the car is really on. Today I choose the sound of a classic Dodge Datona muscle car. I get the 'boys toys' look from her, but I am driving. The lightning acceleration I remember from 70s version is absent, but I am thankful for the high mileage the power starved car delivers. Gas now averages $7 at the pump. Falling petroleum production struggling to feed the 1.1 billion+ cars around the world has made peak oil a household name.

After several hopeful starts after the Great Recession of 2007, the economy is in permanent decline because of the energy problems. Job rationing has left us with four day work weeks, and on occasion, only three days. There is talk of cutting back even more. One week would be on Monday, Wednesday, Friday; the other week would be Tuesday and Thursday, an odd/even concept that looked like it was borrowed from an analogue video system from a by gone era. At any rate, I have lots of free time on my hands, which is ironic since we can't afford and are not allowed to drive around much. I am goded on to only remaing electronics store for miles around, Best Buy, by my wife. What a change! I thought I was always the one who struggled to bring her in. She says the LCD TV is too small and takes up too much space and does not fit the decore. But we both agree its energy consumption is too high.

The weather clears, and bright sunshine is peaking through the thinning clouds. The temps quickly rise to almost 70, unbelievably high for Feburary. The moisture rises from the wet land in small twisting wisps into the air. We leave the unkempt back roads and pick up a newly paved seconday raod. It is smooth and jetblack, and have to bit my lips to drive withen posted limits. But this is not just another day at the big box retailer. A gawky green and red caped figure comes swooping in just as we entered the front door. It was Captian OLED! He leads us to what looks like an almost bare display wall. Only faintly visible are the outlines of a big 150" clear flexable 3mm thick 1,000,000:1 contrast 4K 2.35:1 TV powered by a 3TB HVD system - the latest in home cinema. After one look at the laser like colors pulsing from the jet black screen, we were both sold. My old 47" 1080p LCD never looked so bad. We asked only a few questions to the robot retailer. I gave a tight smile as the significant other inquired if it would display our legacy DVDs - we still had a few of thoes around. "Of course", was the response, "they will all be upscaled to UHDTV resolution". "Wow", she said, "they will look even better on this set!" Even now, almost 20 years later, I still had to explain that upscaled DVD was not true UHDTV. The sets have changed, but the questions have not.... The robot, mercifully, had infinite patience with queries like this. It was not human, and we got what weemed like just a canned response despite all the claims to true artificial intelligence in machines, but at least we got one-on-one service.

On the way home with the set rolled up in something that looked like a oversized cardboard giftrap tube tossed between the front seats of our plug-in prius, I was left wondering what I was going to do with all thoes Blu-ray disks that I had purchased over the years....

We pull into the driveway. The property is a strange amalgam of old and new. The lawn we once had has given way to large hand tilled vegetable garden that goes almost to the from steps of the house. A dirty ho and shovel leans near the door. On the roof, a copper weather cock stands next to a satelite anatana. A newly installed hand water pump is the the shadow of some pole mounted solar panels. At the furtest corner of the property, a sligtly out of plumb privey with a crecent moon flanking a compost pile. The sound of squaking chickens can be heard from the next door neighbor as we exit the car with our new TV.

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by CptGreedle

Take a CLOSE look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UHDV.svg

I wouldn't mind the HDTV displayed in the green box in my house. But I don't want to have to wait till 2011 or more. I want it tomorrow.

[Blu Haze]

Originally Posted by robgmun

I'd be more than happy to settle for that, if your worried about cost then you must have been a red ant

Yea put another dollar into the product.

[unreal1080p]

Sorry I couldn't respond earlier...

Now that I'm back with a nice golden tan from my "Vacation"...



...for putting some weasel in his place:



I can now address what you wrote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Von Karls

If you think a mass amounts of people are going to be happy with one format for 30-40 years you're kidding yourself. .

Are U kidding? The VAST majority of the population would be simply ECSTATIC with one format (Blu-Ray) for the next 30-40+ years (increased consumer confidence and value in their investment + peace of mind etc...).

That's not to say movie and home theater buffs like us would be pleased... far from it: I'll be the first to applaud if something of higher quality comes along sooner rather than later but, I'm being realistic about it and, for reasons outlined earlier in this post:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=129

I'm certain we won't see anything superior to Blu-Ray before approx 2050.
That's not to say movie studios won't try to sell you the same content in different containers (HD downloads, HD VOD, flash cards etc...)... but nothing higher than 1920 X 1080 resolution is coming (mainstream content) and you better get used to that idea.

Originally Posted by Gavin Von Karls

There is already a reason for the people to upgrade and have their sets 3d compatible. With the sudden huge interest in 3d films.

IMHO (take it for what it's worth) 3D is bullshit and no serious home theater enthusiast will (IMHO) put any weight whatsoever on what is ultimately a "catch phrase" gimmick that's been around forever and keeps rearing it's ugly head once every 20 years only to disapear and be forgotten rather quickly thereafter. Remember these:



3D is an experience meant for GINORMOUS screens like IMAX.
Talented engineers might be able to successfully improve on what I consider and old and "already done that" concept but, IMHO, this is simply a "ploy" to try to differentiate the large movie theater going experience from the ever improving domestic living room home theaters and, ultimately (IMHO), will be soon forgotten when movie theaters concentrate on the ONLY thing that will make me start going back to the movie theaters more regularly: 4K Digital Cinema. Considering that insiders have mentioned that the "real life" resolution of the current analog movie theater experience averages out at 1K due to too many variables in the equation... 4K DIGITAL will be a HUGE improvement and one that is repeatable 100% of the time EVERY time

Originally Posted by Gavin Von Karls

Thousands of theaters across the country have already been prepped for 3d.

You said it: "theaters across the country" see the bold underline... that's where it begins and ENDS (IMHO)

Originally Posted by Gavin Von Karls

And 8k is not next... 4k is and it looks a whole lot better than 2k.

Sorry. 4K will NEVER become a broadcast standard therefore the VAST majority of the population WILL NOT have adequate TV's to view it and therefore a new domestic mass market movie format catering to 4K WILL NEVER HAPPEN... it's as simple as that. As mentioned earlier, Movie Studios will reserve 4K for Digital Cinema in order re-invigorate the stagnant and declining Movie Theater going business. Even though, as a home theater enthusiast, you will be able to eventually own expensive 4K panels and/or projectors (expensive because they will NOT be mass produced)... the movie studios will not bring forth a new domestic movie format to cater to a niche within a niche... it will NEVER happen. The next movie format WILL be based on the next North American broadcast standard and that will be 8K Super Hi-Vision and you are looking at approx 2050.

Originally Posted by Gavin Von Karls

Also theaters output at about 250mbs so the next logical step would be a format that does this as well (or even half of this would be a great deal better). Right now bluray is not even close to this, especially with titles like Predator running at around 20mbs. Now whether or not a mass amount of people are going to want this is questionable, but only time will tell. Nothing is certain.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that Movie Studio and CE executives will NEVER sign off on anything like this (frankly they won't even give it a second thought) because there would simply be no viable market for it.
It doesn't mean that a couple of crazy's like you and me would buy it that the masses would... they simply wouldn't. A format that doesn't have a prayer of a chance to be accepted by the masses will simply not see the light of day (or even be considered for that matter).

Originally Posted by Gavin Von Karls

Lastly why should we ever settle for less? Why not push the industry to keep advancing and give us the best they possibly can? I mean they can start by making all titles 50gig discs.

Because we are the mercy of:

Joe 6 Pack's


and the all mighty dollar... CE companies and Movie studios wanting to make this... not lose this:



You can attempt to push all you want... you will simply be hitting a

Buy 200 million 4K displays and distribute them amongst North Americans and we might get a new 4K format... other then that you (and I) are SOL

P.S. Again, THIS (below) is what I want for the next movie format... but I KNOW it just not going to happen before approx 2050

The next media based movie format (hopefully):

1) Lossless Video
2) 4:4:4 (NO chroma subsampling)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV_4:2:0#4:2:0
3) xvYCC color space (30 million colors --> 1.8 times more then RGB)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC
4) 48bit color depth (16bit per color)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Color
5) Super Hi-Vision 8K resolution (7680 X 4320)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Hi-Vision
6) I'm good with 7.1 Lossless audio but Super Hi-Vision has 22.2 audio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22.2

[adamkang]

lol "son of the directors cut"

[unreal1080p]

Originally Posted by adamkang

lol "son of the directors cut"

[RustyK94]

Originally Posted by redblotch83

The reason that the movies never get up to bitrates that high is because of all the extras and different language audio channels everyone wants. What people don't realize is that if there were less extras-the movie could be a higher quality.

Thats why they will release blurays with 2 discs. One for the film and one for the extras

[radagast]

Originally Posted by sega_smasher

or just but the extras on a bd 25 and the movie on a bd50 and leave it at that =)

+1

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Brian Cash

the blu rays would be more exspensive then

This is where Profile 2.0 might come in handy. The extras could be accessed via the ethernet, with the BD disc containing the best possible encode.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by unreal1080p

The next media based movie format (hopefully):

1) Lossless Video
2) 4:4:4 (NO chroma subsampling)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV_4:2:0#4:2:0
3) xvYCC color space (30 million colors --> 1.8 times more then RGB)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC
4) 48bit color depth (16bit per color)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Color
5) Super Hi-Vision 8K resolution (7680 X 4320)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Hi-Vision
6) I'm good with 7.1 Lossless audio but Super Hi-Vision has 22.2 audio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22.2

If we're at the mercy of J6P, then all of these are hopeless desires. No new improved format can get launched without catering to the videophiles for several years.

xvYCC should be possible on Blu-ray if the spec is ammended to allow a flag. It's supposed to be backward compatible.

In most areas of free enterprise there are offerings for the general consumer, and premium offerings for others. Why is home video the exception?

Gary

[Gavin Von Karls]

Originally Posted by unreal1080p

Sorry I couldn't respond earlier...

Now that I'm back with a nice golden tan from my "Vacation"...



...for putting some weasel in his place:



I can now address what you wrote

Are U kidding? The VAST majority of the population would be simply ECSTATIC with one format (Blu-Ray) for the next 30-40+ years (increased consumer confidence and value in their investment + peace of mind etc...).

That's not to say movie and home theater buffs like us would be pleased... far from it: I'll be the first to applaud if something of higher quality comes along sooner rather than later but, I'm being realistic about it and, for reasons outlined earlier in this post:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=129

I'm certain we won't see anything superior to Blu-Ray before approx 2050.
That's not to say movie studios won't try to sell you the same content in different containers (HD downloads, HD VOD, flash cards etc...)... but nothing higher than 1920 X 1080 resolution is coming (mainstream content) and you better get used to that idea.




IMHO (take it for what it's worth) 3D is bullshit and no serious home theater enthusiast will (IMHO) put any weight whatsoever on what is ultimately a "catch phrase" gimmick that's been around forever and keeps rearing it's ugly head once every 20 years only to disapear and be forgotten rather quickly thereafter. Remember these:



3D is an experience meant for GINORMOUS screens like IMAX.
Talented engineers might be able to successfully improve on what I consider and old and "already done that" concept but, IMHO, this is simply a "ploy" to try to differentiate the large movie theater going experience from the ever improving domestic living room home theaters and, ultimately (IMHO), will be soon forgotten when movie theaters concentrate on the ONLY thing that will make me start going back to the movie theaters more regularly: 4K Digital Cinema. Considering that insiders have mentioned that the "real life" resolution of the current analog movie theater experience averages out at 1K due to too many variables in the equation... 4K DIGITAL will be a HUGE improvement and one that is repeatable 100% of the time EVERY time



You said it: "theaters across the country" see the bold underline... that's where it begins and ENDS (IMHO)



Sorry. 4K will NEVER become a broadcast standard therefore the VAST majority of the population WILL NOT have adequate TV's to view it and therefore a new domestic mass market movie format catering to 4K WILL NEVER HAPPEN... it's as simple as that. As mentioned earlier, Movie Studios will reserve 4K for Digital Cinema in order re-invigorate the stagnant and declining Movie Theater going business. Even though, as a home theater enthusiast, you will be able to eventually own expensive 4K panels and/or projectors (expensive because they will NOT be mass produced)... the movie studios will not bring forth a new domestic movie format to cater to a niche within a niche... it will NEVER happen. The next movie format WILL be based on the next North American broadcast standard and that will be 8K Super Hi-Vision and you are looking at approx 2050.



I can tell you with 100% certainty that Movie Studio and CE executives will NEVER sign off on anything like this (frankly they won't even give it a second thought) because there would simply be no viable market for it.
It doesn't mean that a couple of crazy's like you and me would buy it that the masses would... they simply wouldn't. A format that doesn't have a prayer of a chance to be accepted by the masses will simply not see the light of day (or even be considered for that matter).



Because we are the mercy of:

Joe 6 Pack's


and the all mighty dollar... CE companies and Movie studios wanting to make this... not lose this:



You can attempt to push all you want... you will simply be hitting a

Buy 200 million 4K displays and distribute them amongst North Americans and we might get a new 4K format... other then that you (and I) are SOL

P.S. Again, THIS (below) is what I want for the next movie format... but I KNOW it just not going to happen before approx 2050

The next media based movie format (hopefully):

1) Lossless Video
2) 4:4:4 (NO chroma subsampling)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV_4:2:0#4:2:0
3) xvYCC color space (30 million colors --> 1.8 times more then RGB)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC
4) 48bit color depth (16bit per color)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Color
5) Super Hi-Vision 8K resolution (7680 X 4320)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Hi-Vision
6) I'm good with 7.1 Lossless audio but Super Hi-Vision has 22.2 audio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22.2

You could be right in your predictions or....

[unreal1080p]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

If we're at the mercy of J6P, then all of these are hopeless desires. No new improved format can get launched without catering to the videophiles for several years.

xvYCC should be possible on Blu-ray if the spec is ammended to allow a flag. It's supposed to be backward compatible.

In most areas of free enterprise there are offerings for the general consumer, and premium offerings for others. Why is home video the exception?

Gary

What I mean is that CE and Movie Studio executives won't launch a new format if it's features don't have a prayer of a snowball's chance in hell of interesting even the smallest percentage of average consummers.
By that I mean another 1920 X 1080 format with an improved color palete (xvYCC) and an improved color bit depth (16bit). This would be a great format for you and me but the VAST majority of consummers would either:

A) not care
or
B) not be able to see the difference
or
C) not have or be able to afford the equipment required to be able to see the diffence

Anyway you slice it we are NOT going to get another 1920 X 1080 format (IMHO) and we will have to wait until the next broadcast standard is established (8K Super Hi-Vision) and once again we are talking approx the half way point of the century (2050)

P.S. xvYcc for movie encodes will NOT be possible on Blu-Ray as an improved color bit depth (10, 12 or 16 bit) is necessary in order to accomodate the increased color palette of xvYCC (see the wikepedia links in my previous post... it's all explained in there). There is NO way that Blu-Ray's limited 40mbps maximum video bitrate can accomodate for this... it's simply not possible (I trully wish it were... but it's not ).

Deep Color (10, 12 & 16bit) is often employed in video displays where very wide color gamuts are offered, such as with high-end plasma display monitors compatible with the xvYCC gamut range. Due to the increased range of hue and luminosity of these devices, lower color depths might result in wider gaps between color values. This could result in a condition called posterization due to color banding.

[hardcore_canadian]

Originally Posted by unreal1080p

What I mean is that CE and Movie Studio executives won't launch a new format if it's features don't have a prayer of a snowball's chance in hell of interesting even the smallest percentage of average consummers.
By that I mean another 1920 X 1080 format with an improved color palete (xvYCC) and an improved color bit depth (16bit). This would be a great format for you and me but the VAST majority of consummers would either:

A) not care
or
B) not be able to see the difference
or
C) not have or be able to afford the equipment required to be able to see the diffence

Anyway you slice it we are NOT going to get another 1920 X 1080 format (IMHO) and we will have to wait until the next broadcast standard is established (8K Super Hi-Vision) and once again we are talking approx the half way point of the century (2050)

P.S. xvYcc for movie encodes will NOT be possible on Blu-Ray as an improved color bit depth (10, 12 or 16 bit) is necessary in order to accomodate the increased color palette of xvYCC (see the wikepedia links in my previous post... it's all explained in there). There is NO way that Blu-Ray's limited 40mbps maximum video bitrate can accomodate for this... it's simply not possible (I trully wish it were... but it's not ).

You know, if it meant shutting you up, I'd root for HD Downloads

[unreal1080p]

Originally Posted by hardcore_canadian

You know, if it meant shutting you up, I'd root for HD Downloads

The truth hurts doesn't it...

So you can't bring forth any logical arguments and/or contribute in a meaningfull way to this debate so THIS is the garbage you come up with?

P.S. As for shutting me up... in case you haven't noticed... the internet is a free country and I'll express my opinions whenever the hell I feel like it Maybe Canada is'nt the right place for you... Cuba or China might be a better fit for you and your

[kjack]

Originally Posted by unreal1080p

xvYcc for movie encodes will NOT be possible on Blu-Ray as an improved color bit depth (10, 12 or 16 bit) is necessary in order to accomodate the increased color palette of xvYCC (see the wikepedia links in my previous post... it's all explained in there). There is NO way that Blu-Ray's limited 40mbps maximum video bitrate can accomodate for this... it's simply not possible (I trully wish it were... but it's not ).

xvYCC and the color bit depth are not related. 8-bit xvYCC works just fine. I think you misread the wikepedia entry, as I did not see where 8-bit xvYCC was not allowed. And if it did say that, it would be wrong.

[unreal1080p]

Originally Posted by kjack

xvYCC and the color bit depth are not related. 8-bit xvYCC works just fine. I think you misread the wikepedia entry, as I did not see where 8-bit xvYCC was not allowed. And if it did say that, it would be wrong.

I'm affraid not... see for yourself:

Deep Color (10, 12 & 16bit) is often employed in video displays where very wide color gamuts are offered, such as with high-end plasma display monitors compatible with the xvYCC gamut range. Due to the increased range of hue and luminosity of these devices, lower color depths might result in wider gaps between color values. This could result in a condition called posterization due to color banding.

+ link --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Color

Deep Color bit depth (10, 12 or 16 bit) should be used for wider color gamuts (xvYCC) in order to avoid posterization and color banding.

THIS is the whole point for HDMI 1.3 ... which allows for sufficient bandwidth to pass 10, 12 or 16 bit Deep Color (as opposed to previous versions of HDMI).

They definitely seem to go hand in hand to me... unless i'm missing something here

[kjack]

Originally Posted by unreal1080p

They definitely seem to go hand in hand to me... unless i'm missing something here

HDMI 1.3 is needed to transfer deep color. But xvYCC is a separate entity, and can be used with 8-, 10-, 12-bit, etc. bit depths.