Dolby Pro Logic IIz questions

[BigGuy219]

I was able to get a Onkyo HT-TC160 on sale and it's currently on the truck headed to me, and while I'm very excited ... I am also very nervous because this marks the first time I haven't simply gotten a basic $200 HTiB. There's a lot of features I'm not familiar with, and while I've done research there are a few questions I have about Dolby Pro Logic IIz.

I've downloaded the manual from the Onkyo website and looked at the connection diagrams and I've noticed there are an additional two speaker connections on the back of the unit, for "Zone 2" and the "height" feature.

From what I understand if I hook up 9 speakers to the unit, only 7 will function at the same time. I'm afraid the manual didn't seem to make it clear how exactly this works.

Some assumptions ... if I put in a 7.1 blu-ray ... the height speakers will be 'off' and the two rears will be 'on'? ... and if I put a 5.1 disc in and activate Pro Logic IIz the height speakers will be 'on' and the rears will be 'off'? Is it that simple?

Lastly, I've never liked Pro Logic on any of the setups I've had ... in fact, I've always used it only for mono/stereo sources when DD or DTS wasn't an option. When is Pro Logic IIz used ... for DD/DTS and stereo/mono only? Will it 'mess up' a lossless DTS-HD/DD-TrueHD/PCM?

[Big Daddy]

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...z-details.html

By expanding the soundfield vertically Dolby Pro Logic IIz lets you create a 7.1-channel playback system from your 5.1 surround system, or a 9.1 system from your 7.1-channel setup. Dolby Pro Logic IIz even makes speaker positioning and wiring simple. And if it’s not practical to add rear surround speakers in your environment, Dolby Pro Logic IIz still lets you enjoy incredibly realistic surround sound.

How flexible is Dolby Pro Logic IIz? If you already have a 5.1-channel system and buy a new 7.1 audio/video receiver with Dolby Pro Logic IIz, you can put the two additional speakers above your left and right front speakers for 7.1 height, or at the back for a traditional 7.1 setup. Or you can stay with 5.1 channels and use the extra amplifier channels for stereo speakers in another room. With a 9.1-channel setup, you have even more choices, including state-of-the-art 9.1 playback with both surround and back speakers and two front height speakers.

http://www.dolby.com/professional/ce...logic-IIz.html

Because it processes only nondirectional sounds for the height channels, Dolby Pro Logic IIz maintains the integrity of the source mix, so the effects are always appropriate to the material. This added dimension complements the sound from the rear surround speakers, increasing spaciousness while staying true to the original intent of the content creator.

As is the case in existing Pro Logic IIx technology, the height extensions don’t require new kinds of program content to drive the height channel outputs. Instead, the extensions are designed to effectively add depth and dimension to existing program material.

Dolby Pro Logic IIz also incorporates an encoding aspect that enables content providers and game developers to maximize the added dimension by creating entertainment with height elements of near-discrete quality.

http://www.dolby.com/professional/ce...IIz-specs.html

Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz incorporates all of the features and capabilities of Dolby Pro Logic IIx. The following information summarizes existing Dolby Pro Logic IIx implementations and what’s added for Dolby Pro Logic IIz.

Features and configurations for Dolby Pro Logic IIx:

Ability to generate up to 7.1 channels from stereo and 5.1 sources
Supported decoding:
Pro Logic mode
Virtual Compatible mode
Music mode
Movie mode
Matrix mode
Dolby Digital EX mode.Supported upmixed output configurations based on stereo sources:
2 to 3 [L, R to L, C, and R]
2 to 4 [L, R to L, R, Ls, and Rs]
2 to 5.1 [L, R to L, C, R, Ls, and Rs]
2 to 6.1 [L, R to L, C, R, Ls, Rs, and Cs]
2 to 7.1 [L, R to L, C, R, Ls, Rs, Lrs, and Rrs].Supported upmixed output configurations based on 5.1 sources with independent Ls and Rs channels:
5.1 to 6.1 [Ls, Rs to Ls, Rs, and Cs]
5.1 to 7.1 [Ls, Rs to Ls, Rs, Lrs, and Rrs]
.The features listed above allow Dolby Pro Logic IIx to provide a true surround sound experience from a variety of sources. However, all the outputs derived by existing Dolby Pro Logic IIx decoders are located in a horizontal plane. The Dolby Pro Logic IIz extensions to Dolby Pro Logic IIx allow it to derive height channel outputs that significantly enhance the spatial experience.

In addition to the features already described, the height extensions offer the following new features and configurations:

Ability to generate audio of up to 9.1 channels that include height channel outputs from stereo, 5.1, and 7.1 Back sources.
Supported upmixed output configurations based on stereo sources:
2 to 7.1 Height [L, R to L, C, R, Ls, Rs, Lvh, and Rvh]
2 to 9.1 [L, R to L, C, R, Ls, Rs, Lrs, Rrs, Lvh, and Rvh].Supported upmixed output configurations based on 5.1 sources with independent Ls and Rs channels:
5.1 to 7.1 Height [Ls, Rs to Ls, Rs, Lvh, and Rvh]
5.1 to 9.1 [Ls, Rs to Ls, Rs, Lrs, Rrs, Lvh, and Rvh]
Note: For 5.1-channel sources, Dolby Pro Logic IIz height extensions operate only on the Ls and Rs channels; L, C, R, and LFE channels are bypassed..Because new formats (such as Blu-ray Disc™) allow content to contain up to 7.1 discrete channels from Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD audio programs, the height extensions support 7.1 Back sources and offer the following upmixed output configurations:

7.1 Back to 7.1 Height [Ls, Rs, Lrs, and Rrs to Ls, Rs, Lvh, and Rvh]
7.1 Back to 9.1 [Ls, Rs to Ls, Rs, Lrs, Rrs, Lvh, and Rvh]
Note: For 7.1-channel sources, Dolby Pro Logic IIz height extensions may operate only on the Ls, Rs, Lrs, and Rrs channels; L, C, R, and LFE are bypassed.

[AmberMosquito]

hey big daddy, you seem to be very knowlidgeable in this area.. so i was wondering what you think about audyessy(im sure i spelled it wrong) dynamic eq. Should I use it when playing bluray movies at a loud level? 73 being usually the loudest i ever need it. Does it add anything at loud levels? Or is it only for use at lower levels? When I do use it at lower levels I usually have to turn it wat down cause it makes the surrounds + front very loud. and it adds a ton of base. I have an onkyo txnr708 with 5.1+front height. do you know the difference between the NR model and the SR model? any insight on these matters would be greatly appreciated.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

hey big daddy, you seem to be very knowlidgeable in this area.. so i was wondering what you think about audyessy(im sure i spelled it wrong) dynamic eq. Should I use it when playing bluray movies at a loud level? 73 being usually the loudest i ever need it. Does it add anything at loud levels? Or is it only for use at lower levels? When I do use it at lower levels I usually have to turn it wat down cause it makes the surrounds + front very loud. and it adds a ton of base. I have an onkyo txnr708 with 5.1+front height. do you know the difference between the NR model and the SR model? any insight on these matters would be greatly appreciated.

Give this a read Amber & Welcome to the forum!!

https://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theo...ur-system.html

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

hey big daddy, you seem to be very knowlidgeable in this area.. so i was wondering what you think about audyessy(im sure i spelled it wrong) dynamic eq. Should I use it when playing bluray movies at a loud level? 73 being usually the loudest i ever need it. Does it add anything at loud levels? Or is it only for use at lower levels? When I do use it at lower levels I usually have to turn it wat down cause it makes the surrounds + front very loud. and it adds a ton of base. I have an onkyo txnr708 with 5.1+front height. do you know the difference between the NR model and the SR model? any insight on these matters would be greatly appreciated.

First of all, make sure all your speakers and the subwoofer are calibrated properly. Double check with an SPL meter.

Audyssey Dynamic Equalization is meant to be used at low volumes. Technically, as long as you are below reference level, using Audyssey Dynamic Equaliztion is a good idea. Reference level is extremely loud. I would leave dynamic eq on all the time. However, if it bothers you so much, turn it off. It is a matter of personal preference.

Brief Explanation of Audyssey Dynamic Eq:
Multi-channel audio is mixed at high volume and is meant to be played back at very high reference level. However, in home theaters, people turn the volume down and as a result the sound quality suffers. Normally, when you turn the volume down for surround sound movies, the bass and surround effects suffer. With the Audyssey Dynamic EQualization, you can regain this information even at low volumes.

For more detailed information, check the following links:

http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dynamiceq.html
http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...ynamic_volume/


Reference Level:
Reference level is defined for film mixing and movie theaters. Every studio and movie theater is calibrated according to this level. It represents an average of 85dB for the regular speakers on the SPL meter (set on C weighting and Slow) using a band limited (500Hz to 2,000Hz) pink noise at the listening position. The peak level is set 20dB higher at 105db and the LFE peak level is set +10dB higher to a maximum of 115dB. The purpose of the +10 dB gain for the LFE channel is to increase the dynamic range of bass sound such as explosions and crashes. This means when the receiver master volume is set to 0dB, the regular speakers are expected to play a peak level of 105dB and the subwoofer is expected to produce a peak output level of 115dB. This is louder than most people can tolerate, so people normally set the master volume much lower than 0 when watching movies or listening to music. Furthermore, such loud bass level places a heavy burden on the subwoofer and requires multiple high-end subwoofers to produce it accurately.

Because 85dBC test tones can be very loud in a small home theater room and can damage hearing, receiver manufacturers through the encouragement by Dolby and THX decided that a reasonable test-tone level is 75dB and that is the level that most receivers use.

[AmberMosquito]

thanks for the info.. i have been using the setup mic to calibrate the speakers. but i do have a sound meter. which do you think is better? and if i do use the sound meter i usually calibrate the speakers to 75db. all equal. is that the best way to do it? or does the setup mic actally do any special calculations that i cant do with the sound meter?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

thanks for the info.. i have been using the setup mic to calibrate the speakers. but i do have a sound meter. which do you think is better? and if i do use the sound meter i usually calibrate the speakers to 75db. all equal. is that the best way to do it? or does the setup mic actally do any special calculations that i cant do with the sound meter?

The calibration program inside the receiver and the included microphone do several things:

1. Measure the distances between the speakers/ subwoofer and the listening position.
2. Adjust the levels of the speakers/subwoofer.
3. Perform equalization to get rid off some of the problems associated with audio in small rooms.
4. Depending on the calibration program that you own and its version, they can perform equalization for multiple listening positions.

An SPL meter is generally used to check the levels of the speakers and is a good idea to double check the speaker levels after calibration. In order to measure the frequency response of the speakers in the room and perform equalization with an SPL meter, you need other equipment and it will take several hours. Moreover, low cost SPL meters do not have the needed accuracy for such measurements. It is best to use a calibrated microphone. Behringer sells one for less than $100.

[AmberMosquito]

thanks so much for all the good info! now I know the dynamic eq works with the setup mic, I turn it off before doing mic set up test and after tests its back on again.. does that mean the calibrated settings will not apply when the dynamic eq is off?

[AmberMosquito]

Also before I buy this mic... how do I use it?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

thanks so much for all the good info! now I know the dynamic eq works with the setup mic, I turn it off before doing mic set up test and after tests its back on again.. does that mean the calibrated settings will not apply when the dynamic eq is off?

My receiver does not have dynamic equalization and I can't give you a definite answer. My guess is that dynamic equalization uses the information that the calibration program provides. I suggest that you read the manual and follow the directions that they suggest for calibration.

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

Also before I buy this mic... how do I use it?

If you are talking about the Behringer microphone, don't buy it. In order to be able to use it, you need a laptop with a very good sound card or an external sound card, a parametric equalizer or the Behringer Feedback Destroyer, and special software program.

[ReverendSlim]

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

thanks so much for all the good info! now I know the dynamic eq works with the setup mic, I turn it off before doing mic set up test and after tests its back on again.. does that mean the calibrated settings will not apply when the dynamic eq is off?

Dynamic EQ works based on knowing where reference level is on the receiver. It does this by using the Audyssey mic, which has a production error tolerance of about +/-2dB, so it should do a good job of ensuring that Audyssey's software knows where reference level is. You don't have to turn off Dynamic EQ to do the Audyssey process as all processing automatically disables during the test tones anyway.

Basically, Dynamic EQ provides a slowly changing loudness curve based on a known volume level (i.e. 0 = reference). In the past, loudness curves just boosted bass around 50Hz as you turned volume down, but there was no reference point where this stopped happening. Because Dynamic EQ knows that 0 = reference, it can apply no change at reference level, then gradually add the changes as you get further down from reference. Also unlike other loudness systems, it doesn't just boost bass - it actually tweaks frequencies in the ranges of the human voice to ensure dialogue clarity as volume is decreased, and it performs a slight boost to the surround equalization in the most directional frequencies to ensure directional placement of sounds in the surrounds at lower volumes.

So because of its dependence upon knowing where reference level is, it's typically not a good idea to change the channel trim levels based on another SPL meter's readings. For instance, in my case, my trusty old Radio Shack SPL meter reads 72dB with internal test tones post-Audyssey, whereas it should read 75dB. However, changing all the channel trims so that they read 75dB on the meter results in my normal listening level being at a lower number on the volume readout... which also results in more boost being used by Dynamic EQ, and it doesn't sound as good. Additionally, internal test tones are not equalized, meaning that setting your levels post-Audyssey with a SPL meter isn't taking the equalization into account. You can do this, however, with a calibration disc, since the test tones will be passed through the processing and equalized, giving you the actual in-room levels at which you should be setting channel trims. This is a big reason why most SPL meters won't match up to what Audyssey sets its levels to. When I check my post-Audyssey channel levels using the AIX Records Blu-ray's test tones so that Audyssey's equalization stays in place, they read 74dB at reference, which means my system is properly resolving equalized levels within 1dB (or, since I'm using a Radio Shack SPL meter, it could also mean that my meter's reading is off by 1dB, but I digress).

Audyssey does, however, allow for a way to mitigate the rate at which Dynamic EQ does its changes if your AVR has the REFERENCE control for Dynamic EQ. This lets you change the reference point in 5dB increments for material not mixed specifically for reference levels (i.e. TV and music). So if you set the REFERENCE control to 5dB, Dynamic EQ will go from applying no change at 0 on the volume level to hitting its no-change point at -5 on the volume level (and -10 if you use 10dB REFERENCE, etc.). This means that if you don't like how much boost Dynamic EQ is applying, you can simply change the reference point it uses with the REFERENCE control.

However, some AVRs don't have this control. In this case, you can mitigate the amount of boost by lowering all the channel trims equally. This means your normal listening level will be higher on the volume readout, thereby putting you closer to 0 on the dial and decreasing the amount of boost that occurs. The side-effect of this method, however, is that 0 will no longer actually equal reference level in your room.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

Also before I buy this mic... how do I use it?

You just need a Radio Shack Analog SPL meter.
Set it to "C" Weighting, "Slow" Response, and "70 db" Calibration Scale, on the dial.

@ http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103668

Also, check in one's of Big Daddy's sticky thread for that meter "Compensation Chart".
* Here: @ https://forum.blu-ray.com/644467-post1.html

[mj3k]

I Learned alot today by reading all of this...great and knowledgable info and even if I don't have the Pro Logic IIz...I find it it still important to know..Thanks BR Gents...

[AmberMosquito]

thanks for all the info!! you guys rock! Ive found the settings im happy with... Cable/sat dynamic eq off (too boomy) Xbox360 Dynamic eq on/light volume control Bluray dynamiceq On/ light volume control. Im using the Onkyo TXNR708 with 5.1 + 2 hieght speakers. Dolby pro logic2z listening mode for all 3 sources. does anyone know the difference betwee the "NR" series and the "SR" series Onkyo recievers? I just want to make sure I got a good one...

[ReverendSlim]

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

thanks for all the info!! you guys rock! Ive found the settings im happy with... Cable/sat dynamic eq off (too boomy) Xbox360 Dynamic eq on/light volume control Bluray dynamiceq On/ light volume control. Im using the Onkyo TXNR708 with 5.1 + 2 hieght speakers. Dolby pro logic2z listening mode for all 3 sources. does anyone know the difference betwee the "NR" series and the "SR" series Onkyo recievers? I just want to make sure I got a good one...

NR series has network connection via ethernet. SR doesn't. You're good.

[AmberMosquito]

had a hiccup today... Watching a blu ray, fast fowarded then resumed movie and guess what... ony ambient sounds, no talking or any other sounds! rewinded a little. same problem. stoped the movie, restarted the disk and problem was gone. Im wondering if it was the reciever or just the bluray player. any thoughts...

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

had a hiccup today... Watching a blu ray, fast fowarded then resumed movie and guess what... ony ambient sounds, no talking or any other sounds! rewinded a little. same problem. stoped the movie, restarted the disk and problem was gone. Im wondering if it was the reciever or just the bluray player. any thoughts...

What is your BD player? Receiver? Speakers? Room? ...The more you give, the more you shall receive.

Oh, and what Blu-ray movie was it?

[AmberMosquito]

Bluray player: Samsung BDP1600 reciever:OnkyoTXNR708 Speakers: THX/Onkyo 5.1 W/hieght TV/ panasonicTCP65v10 Listining mode for blurays is dolbyTrueHD/DTS master lossless in... DolbyPL2z w/ hieght is output. Audysee dynamic EQ on/ volume control light....

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

had a hiccup today... Watching a blu ray, fast fowarded then resumed movie and guess what... ony ambient sounds, no talking or any other sounds! rewinded a little. same problem. stoped the movie, restarted the disk and problem was gone. Im wondering if it was the reciever or just the bluray player. any thoughts...

Did you smoke any prohibited substance?

Originally Posted by AmberMosquito

Bluray player: Samsung BDP1600 reciever:OnkyoTXNR708 Speakers: THX/Onkyo 5.1 W/hieght TV/ panasonicTCP65v10 Listining mode for blurays is dolbyTrueHD/DTS master lossless in... DolbyPL2z w/ hieght is output. Audysee dynamic EQ on/ volume control light....

That's great. ...My guess is that it has to do with your settings somewhere, and perhaps the way your components interact between each other. .......................... NOT. Actually the problem stems from the disc spinning in your Sammmy BD player, perhaps just a one time freak accident. Just make sure you clean your discs and set them properly in the disc tray, without rushing, that's all.

And if I was you I'd disable the "CEC" feature (called "Power Control" in your Onkyo 708 receiver) from all your compatibles components (Onkyo receiver, Sammy BD player & Panny TV).
You do have a Logitech Harmony Universal remote right?

* Did it reoccur? ...The issue, not smoking a refer!

[AmberMosquito]

no has not occured again.. I think the sammy gets confused when you fast foward alot the hit play. thats what i did. blu ray players dont handle fast fowarding and rewinding that well for some reason.. And no smoking involved.. Ive been clean for 4 years now