Balanced Connections

[Intamin]

Quick question:

When making connections, is it possible to go balanced from cdp to preamp, then unbalanced from preamp to the amp, or do you need to keep it either all balanced or all rca? I don't plan on doing the proposed set up, but was just curious.

[jibucha]

Hello

Interesting.

Balanced is always preferred when available.

Technically, if the equipment allows; you can do whatever you like.

A complete balanced chain of connectivity is the best performance.

Thank You

[Johnny Vinyl]

This has always confused me somewhat. Can someone provide a link or explain here is to what the differences are and why one would use one over the other.

John

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by John72953

This has always confused me somewhat. Can someone provide a link or explain here is to what the differences are and why one would use one over the other.

John

Basically, balanced connections have a lower noise floor which can increase output by 6db if I recall. I'm sure there are other reasons, but that's the one that sticks out in my mind.

[sokrman14]

It has a ground post, so it should also remove some ground loop humming. Basically there should be some less interference, thats why it is designed for long cable runs

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Intamin

Quick question:

When making connections, is it possible to go balanced from cdp to preamp, then unbalanced from preamp to the amp, or do you need to keep it either all balanced or all rca? I don't plan on doing the proposed set up, but was just curious.

Balanced connections are of real value in live concert venues, where a lot of wiring can induce real problems with interference.

It's usually not needed, and makes no difference, if you're setting up audio connetions at home - far less chaotic, unless you're hooking up independent amplifiers for each channel or something and have a rat's nest of wires back there.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Intamin

Quick question:

When making connections, is it possible to go balanced from cdp to preamp, then unbalanced from preamp to the amp, or do you need to keep it either all balanced or all rca? I don't plan on doing the proposed set up, but was just curious.

There are possibly advantages to using all-balanced, but there's no technical reason why you can't mix balanced and single-ended operation, provided your equipment supports it (some gear is balanced or single-ended only).

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by richteer

There are possibly advantages to using all-balanced, but there's no technical reason why you can't mix balanced and single-ended operation, provided your equipment supports it (some gear is balanced or single-ended only).

I use both, but most are balanced cables. I only use single ended when a source component or amp does not offer balanced connections.

Rich

[Intamin]

My new CDP and pre-amp have balanced outs/ins, but my current amp doesn't have balanced which was what originally piqued my interest. I'm going to stick with rca until I get an amp with balanced this summer, just to keep things simple.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by John72953

This has always confused me somewhat. Can someone provide a link or explain here is to what the differences are and why one would use one over the other.

John

No link off hand, but I'll try to explain:

Normal (single-ended) cables have two conductors: hot and ground. The hot carries the signal, and the ground is the, well, ground. :-) With a balanced cable there are three conductors: a +ive hot, a -ive hot, and a ground, where the +ive and -ive signals are 180 degrees out of phase with each other.

Some environments are worse than others, but there is nearly always electrical noise and other nasties in the air, which cables can pick up. The longer the cable, or the more electrically noisy the environment, the noise the cable will pick up.

Apart from shielding, there's not much we can do with single ended cables. But balanced cables have a solution. The noise will be present on both the +ive and -ive hot cables, in the same phase. When the +ive and -ive signals are combined again, the signal that is common to both conductors (that is, the noise), will be cancelled out: their amplitudes tend to sum to zero. The amount of cancellation is presented as the cable's CMR, or Common Mode Rejection ratio.

So, with long cables--especially in an electrically noisy envrionment--balanced cables offer an advantage over their single-ended brethren due to their higher CMR.

[mdabb]

Hey,

I only have unbalanced on my CDP but do have balanced connections from pre-amp to amp and all is good !!! Seems to be a tad quieter using the balanced between pre and amp even though all connections aren't XLR.

I was gonna go with an RCA to XLR adapter on the CDP but have been told that the benefit of the XLR isn't realized with an adapter so no point. Do wish I had balanced connects on my CDP ............

I have a longish pair (8ft.) of XLR's you can borrow if you would like to try it out ???

[sokrman14]

Most home audio equipment will only have balanced connections on preamps and amps. Possibly speakers if you have self powered speakers, but most self powered speakers are professional speakers used for recording.

[mdabb]

I have seen plenty of CDP's with XLR's. I just wish mine had'em too. Since mine is a tube modified CDP, wish they would have considered XLR's as well. I know it's really not a huge deal maybe I feel left out .

I can say I love my CDP though BIG TIME !!!

[Gohanto]

Pretty well covered. In home use, balenced isn't really needed.

And try to avoid using a XLR (balenced) to RCA (unbalenced) cable. The reason for this is that many times unbalenced inputs and outputs are set for -10dBV, which balenced i/o's are set for +4dBu. This can occassionally result in too hot of a signal coming into a piece of gear and the signal getting clipped.

[Big Daddy]

Some helpful links:

http://www.harmony-central.com/artic...vs_unbalanced/
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/...227500,00.html
http://www.audioholics.com/education...-interconnects

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Some helpful links:

http://www.harmony-central.com/artic...vs_unbalanced/
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/...227500,00.html
http://www.audioholics.com/education...-interconnects

Daddy! You're home!!!


John

[Chevypower]

I think Richteer explained it really well. I was under the impression that noise picked up wouldn't be common on both signals, and therefore, it would be cancelled out, only common signals would be passed through.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by mdabb

Hey,

I only have unbalanced on my CDP but do have balanced connections from pre-amp to amp and all is good !!! Seems to be a tad quieter using the balanced between pre and amp even though all connections aren't XLR.

I was gonna go with an RCA to XLR adapter on the CDP but have been told that the benefit of the XLR isn't realized with an adapter so no point. Do wish I had balanced connects on my CDP ............

I have a longish pair (8ft.) of XLR's you can borrow if you would like to try it out ???

Hi Andrew,

I have a single ended RCA to XLR cable that I had made up to go from my upgraded (modified) Denon DVD 5910 digital out to my AES XLR in on my upgraded (modified) Lavry DA 10 DAC. It works extremely well; I then use XLR cables from the Lavry to the analog in of the upgraded (modified) Onkyo 885 Pre/pro. I do not think that I have to increase the gain as much on the Lavry as if I had used single ended digital or optical cables between the Denon and the Lavy but that may just be due to the circuitry.

Rich

[Big Daddy]

This is the graphical explanation of Richteer's post.

In an unbalanced connector, the entire audio signal is carried in the center pin. In a balanced connector, Pin 1 is used as the ground connection, Pin 2 is the audio signal, and pin 3 is also the audio signal, but inverted. How does the signal get inverted for the second conductor? An amp inside the sending device is wired to invert the signal. A similar amp in the receiving component is used to compare the two conductors when the signal arrives into the component.

Assume we have a 1 volt signal. The following graph shows the sine wave on a balanced cable. The blue line represents the signal on Pin 2, and is also the signal that is carried on the center pin of an unbalanced cable. The red line is the signal that is carried on Pin 3 of a balanced connection. As you can see, it is out of phase with Pin 2.

The following graph is the same as above, but with noise added to the signal.

With XLR connection, any signal that is common to both the positive and negative conductors is rejected. Anything that is different, is considered to be part of the signal and will be accepted.

[Clark Kent]

It really should be one of the finishing touches in an audio system. On my list of audio priorities, it would be nearly the last thing I consider in putting a system together. There is some minor audible benefit to using balanced connections but not all equipment is even engineered correctly to take advantage of them.