4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’m looking for a risk vs. reward analysis here. Will anyone (any company) suffer as the result of a January BDA update, and if so, who would be hurt the most?

I don't think an update at CES would have much effect on people who would want 4K video on DirecTV or Netflix. Also while the people who hate physical media are going to hate 4K Blu-ray I think it would give them extra ammo if CES passed without any mention of 4K Blu-ray.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Do you or anyone here think such a reassuring revelation (with invariable subsequent publicity) would undermine sales/adoption of alternative 4K delivery solutions as itemized here - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post10033572 to a point where the involved distributors and content producers would lose any revenue?

Or, on the other hand, would the increased awareness/exposure addressing the topic of 4K by spokesperson(s) for the BDA at CES, if anything, actually help sell those non-disc options to current 4K TV/projector owners….esp. those clueless or uncaring to the advantages of physical media.

I’m looking for a risk vs. reward analysis here. Will anyone (any company) suffer as the result of a January BDA update, and if so, who would be hurt the most?

I don't think the existing providers would be harmed greatly because they use different delivery systems, and so there will still be a market for streamed 4K material alongside the physical discs, just as HD streaming co-exists with Blu-ray today.

I suppose the folks who've bought into Sony's 4K streaming solution will be a little bit peeved, but if they thought that that was going to be the only 4K home video platform EVER then they're being somewhat naive. Hopefully Sony will make it more attractive to stay with the service by fully integrating 4K Unlimited into their actual Video Unlimited platform, allowing streaming (not just downloading) and to provide 4K movies from other studios.

[AK65]

Streaming may crush 4KBD anyway, but a gimped spec gives them no chance.

[Kirsty_Mc]

An update and possibly some prototype demonstrated would be nice. It would help shut up all the 4K haters we are plagued with these days.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kirsty_Mc

...haters we are plagued with these days.

Makes me wonder if their behavioral impairment is secondary to a chromosomal abnormality or environmentally based (unhappy childhood); regardless, sometimes there is justice in torturing them with marketing videos…

4K Solutions,Panasonic 4K Solutions - YouTube

[Kirsty_Mc]

Very informative video. Backs up what Red has been banging on about for quite a while.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by AK65

Streaming may crush 4KBD anyway, but a gimped spec gives them no chance.

"Them" as in member companies of the BDA?

Just in case you’re not satisfied with what breaks out of the starting gate with 4K BD…consider like back in the day with 3D (http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...-Specification), 4K Blu-ray could be updated to support new features.

[Tok]

So why can't some of the improvements be used to create a better BD spec without the resolution increase.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by AK65

Streaming may crush 4KBD anyway, but a gimped spec gives them no chance.

That's fine. Let it be niche. If we got the same library as laserdisc, which was also niche, I'll be more than happy.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

That's fine. Let it be niche. If we got the same library as laserdisc, which was also niche, I'll be more than happy.

I agree. I'll still buy the discs regardless of their popularity.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

"Them" as in member companies of the BDA?

Just in case you’re not satisfied with what breaks out of the starting gate with 4K BD…consider like back in the day with 3D (http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...-Specification), 4K Blu-ray could be updated to support new features.

That was a bad model to repeat. It was a huge technology change, requiring new player, new television, new receiver - and didn't have any backwards compatibility, despite early claims that a 3-D disc could play in a 2-D disc machine.


Not making a compatible disc format that has the public, already wary of any cheery advertising starting with "Announcing!", is going to have a very weak launch. The landscape is saturated with streaming - DVD is still huge - Blu-Ray is not an obsolete tech, and won't be for a while.


People who "can't tell the difference" aren't going to flood the stores with Blu-Ray 3-D changes still not dominant, Atmos and Auro still not implemented or dominant, and 4K given a "partial" introduction with a Big Changes On The Horizon caveat.


Everyone will be quite happy to wait for things to settle down. Not good if you're trying to launch a spec, for money.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Tok

So why can't some of the improvements be used to create a better BD spec without the resolution increase.

Good question, but the majority of equipment is designed/built to only provide the specifications set, rather than built to have room for improvement. This reduces cost and complexity.

But I am not 100% sure of that. MPEG-4 AVC is a very modular codec, I am no expert on the matter, but I don't know how easy or hard it would be for example, to update players to support the High 10 profile which provides 10-bit colour depth.

You have also got any other processing that takes place, of which may need to be altered/updated to allow for the additional data, and also output, in terms of HDMI. As not every piece of equipment supports all HDMI features, to keep cost down and cut down on complexity.

I would like to hear others on this matter. What is your view Penton?

[Geoff D]

Trouble is though Tech the main A/V decoding is done by hardware, not software, so updating it on a 'regular' BD player isn't going to happen because the hardware does not allow it, unlike the PS3 where they wrote new routines that used the rest of the machine's processing power to support 3D BD. That's why we needed a new player for 3D BD, and 4K BD will be no different.

That said, let's bear in mind that when Blu-ray launched it had none of this internet malarkey, but the provision was there for improved BD profiles and the internet stuff was added with profile 2.0. I do believe that it'll be possible to ensure that 4K BD is scaleable in the same way as long as they leave enough wiggle room in the spec.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Trouble is though Tech the main A/V decoding is done by hardware, not software, so updating it on a 'regular' BD player isn't going to happen because the hardware does not allow it, unlike the PS3 where they wrote new routines that used the rest of the machine's processing power to support 3D BD. That's why we needed a new player for 3D BD, and 4K BD will be no different.

That said, let's bear in mind that when Blu-ray launched it had none of this internet malarkey, but the provision was there for improved BD profiles and the internet stuff was added with profile 2.0. I do believe that it'll be possible to ensure that 4K BD is scaleable in the same way as long as they leave enough wiggle room in the spec.

Exactly Geoff. Performing in hardware is hard to impossible to upgrade without physically swapping out components.

As you said, features did evolve and added to existing hardware, but how much more could be improved is harder to determine.

As you said the PS3/4, with its powerful processor is more flexible in terms of upgrading.

In a perfect world you would make something future proof and give it more power than required (this is especially true in business/enterprise equipment, specifically in computing/networking).

In the consumer market, the companies want you to buy brand new equipment in order to support the latest technology, so I doubt we will see an improved Blu-ray spec supporting current equipment, I am not talking about 4K Blu-ray, but as Tok asked, improving the spec of current Blu-ray in regards to 10-bit colour depth, 4:2:2 subsampling, yes it won't be done, but can it be done.

[Geoff D]

It's basically a rhetorical question though because we already know the answer: Of course they could update the spec but you'd need a new player to take advantage of it, as per 3D BD. And with the prospect of the 4K BD iteration on the horizon you've got two hopes of getting any sort of new HD-level BD hardware in the West at this point: Bob Hope and no hope.

That said, our Nippon friends came up with a way of encoding Blu-ray with enhanced bit-depth called MGVC, using 3D-style encoding of the main feature + the differential to effectively create 12-bit colour, but it's propriety to Panasonic and there have been very few players and discs that have supported it.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Just in case you’re not satisfied with what breaks out of the starting gate with 4K BD…consider like back in the day with 3D (http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...-Specification), 4K Blu-ray could be updated to support new features.

Blu-ray 3D is only used on a tiny percentage of titles, was needed since the revival of 3D didn't really start until after Blu-ray had been released, and Blu-ray 3D titles generally cost $5 to $10 more. 4K Blu-ray should look good from day one and I think it would be reasonable to judge 4K Blu-ray based only on what the base standard supports.

Originally Posted by Tok

So why can't some of the improvements be used to create a better BD spec without the resolution increase.

They could do that but I don't think the CE companies would support a new video format if it didn't support 4K resolution.

[Truewitt]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

That was a bad model to repeat. It was a huge technology change, requiring new player, new television, new receiver - and didn't have any backwards compatibility, despite early claims that a 3-D disc could play in a 2-D disc machine.


Not making a compatible disc format that has the public, already wary of any cheery advertising starting with "Announcing!", is going to have a very weak launch. The landscape is saturated with streaming - DVD is still huge - Blu-Ray is not an obsolete tech, and won't be for a while.


People who "can't tell the difference" aren't going to flood the stores with Blu-Ray 3-D changes still not dominant, Atmos and Auro still not implemented or dominant, and 4K given a "partial" introduction with a Big Changes On The Horizon caveat.


Everyone will be quite happy to wait for things to settle down. Not good if you're trying to launch a spec, for money.

I just wanted to bold the part of your post that goes past opinion into absolute falsehood. Whether or not a 3D disc is authored to allow play on a 2D player, all 3D BDs are capable of being played on 2D players per the spec. And, functionally, virtually all 3D releases have a 2D version of the film included, even if the 3D specific disc is authored to lock out 2D playback.

[Geoff D]

Yep, the disc spec itself is still capable of delivering exactly what was promised, but the backwards compatibility on certain discs is being locked out by the studios during the authoring process.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's basically a rhetorical question though because we already know the answer: Of course they could update the spec but you'd need a new player to take advantage of it, as per 3D BD. And with the prospect of the 4K BD iteration on the horizon you've got two hopes of getting any sort of new HD-level BD hardware in the West at this point: Bob Hope and no hope.

That said, our Nippon friends came up with a way of encoding Blu-ray with enhanced bit-depth called MGVC, using 3D-style encoding of the main feature + the differential to effectively create 12-bit colour, but it's Panasonic's baby and there have been very few players and discs that have supported it.

MGVC is similar to xvYCC, of which uses what's already available to provide more (of course they differ in what they do, and require new software/hardware, but they are proprietary technologies so to speak and not supported by the BDA).

So yes, additional technologies have become available, but not standardised/supported for all BD players.

The problem is, the BDA wouldn't allow a technology unless it could be supported on all current hardware, you need to purchase specific hardware to support MGVC or xvYCC, as you said Geoff, MGVC is only available on some Panasonic players in JP.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Tok

So why can't some of the improvements be used to create a better BD spec without the resolution increase.

Anyone not brainwashed by 4K has been wanting the same thing. I think you know the answer to that already.