4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[FilmFreakosaurus]

I'm thinking that CES 2016 is when any significant announcements of UHD media product will be made. There may be some initial rumblings at CEDIA in Texas, but nothing of significance.

The BDA is moving at a glacial pace this time around.

[GenPion]

They already said it would be coming this year. We will likely hear more this summer. And some titles and players will become available come December. Things will expand in 2016 greatly, though.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

The recent version of the HEVC proposal from Movielabs includes some BDA slides about Ultra HD Blu-ray. Most of the information came out last month but it includes a bit more information about the metadata.

b.t.w., I didn’t get a chance to mention it last month when you linked the leaked Panasonic slide from AV Watch, but anyhow, with regards to BT.2020 on p.2, footnote3 of the BDA pdf file….

with my quick perusal of AV websites containing articles including editorials/commentary over the past several months, AV writers seem to assume that the biggest debate amongst engineers/scientists involved in determining the parameters of 2020 was concerning the chromaticity coordinates for the color primaries (red, green blue) or perhaps bit depth (10, 12bit)…not so….most attention and study was actually afforded to coding (Constant vs Non-Constant luminance) for sub-sampled signals -
reference, April 2013

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by GenPion

They already said it would be coming this year. We will likely hear more this summer. And some titles and players will become available come December. Things will expand in 2016 greatly, though.

Unless the BDA is being purposefully cagey and sneaky and things are further along than they are stating in public (with a nod to the studios that they can start prepping compliant consumer video masters and stamping discs and manufacturers can start building players with the ability to add firmware to the boxes as soon as the specs are locked), there won't be enough time to create much for 2015.

That's why I'm beginning to think that most hardware manufacturer announcements will begin at next year's CES.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by GenPion

At the minimum, I expect a wave roll-out from Sony. Some other studios might join in...

Well, the company is providing early leadership in one Ultra HD sector - http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20150217PD204.html

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, the company is providing early leadership in one Ultra HD sector - http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20150217PD204.html

Which broadcasters will promptly ruin with filtering, resolution down conversion, and hyper compression.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by GenPion

... but with how many titles?

The bar for Blu-ray (in terms of the quality and quantity of launched titles) was set on June 20, 2006 ( https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...90&postcount=7 )

….if this is improved upon, will/should people consider the launch of Ultra HD Blu-ray to be a success?

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Unless the BDA is being purposefully cagey and sneaky and things are further along than they are stating in public (with a nod to the studios that they can start prepping compliant consumer video masters and stamping discs and manufacturers can start building players with the ability to add firmware to the boxes as soon as the specs are locked), there won't be enough time to create much for 2015.

That's why I'm beginning to think that most hardware manufacturer announcements will begin at next year's CES.

Exactly. I'm with you 100% on this line of thought.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The bar for Blu-ray (in terms of the quality and quantity of launched titles) was set on June 20, 2006 ( https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...90&postcount=7 )

….if this is improved upon, will/should people consider the launch of Ultra HD Blu-ray to be a success?

Should we put money down that Sony will release the exact same titles at the launch of Ultra HD Blu-ray?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Exactly. A few players and a token handful of titles = non-starter for 2015.

but isn't that true for any launch? The PS4/xbone launched with a handful of games each, BD launched with one manufacturer/model BD player and a handful of films in the summer of 2006, DVD launched in Japan in in Q4 1996, in the US in a few cities in Q1 1997...... everything starts small and insignificant. I don't get the point people are trying to make.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

but isn't that true for any launch? The PS4/xbone launched with a handful of games each, BD launched with one manufacturer/model BD player and a handful of films in the summer of 2006, DVD launched in Japan in in Q4 1996, in the US in a few cities in Q1 1997...... everything starts small and insignificant. I don't get the point people are trying to make.

The point is this is not a totally new format, just an extension to what we already have. And yet the industry is dragging their feet once again and once more the right hand doesn't seem to know what the left is doing. They make the same mistakes time after time after...

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Unless the BDA is being purposefully cagey and sneaky and things are further along than they are stating in public (with a nod to the studios that they can start prepping compliant consumer video masters and stamping discs and manufacturers can start building players with the ability to add firmware to the boxes as soon as the specs are locked), there won't be enough time to create much for 2015.

That's why I'm beginning to think that most hardware manufacturer announcements will begin at next year's CES.

I don't fully agree, for studios the final specs are more or less immaterial because the BD specs and 4K specs are known and they don't necessarily need to go with the extras (i.e. if the studio won't use HDR on a film then why would they need to know the HDR specs before beginning, if the content is 24fps, why would the studio need to wait to see if the BDA adds 48fps or changes it's mind and makes 50fps a global spec?..... Not only can the studios have a 4k film master ready, but they can have a BD master ready and even have replicated BDs ready. It might be jumping the gun but 4k BD is built on BD and so any critical feature is known.

Where I agree a bit is on manufactures, if the BDA decides X is mandatory then the device needs to support X. But my guess, like with the BD launch, most of the first generation players won't be SOC so even there you can have a large head start and just change the FW because of the overkill.

I think you are also missing something important, the different companies make the advancements, the BDA (or similar org) then decides what to do with those proposed techs (drop it, optional, mandatory...) so to the manufacturers it is not as murky as it is for us. What I mean is that a manufacturer might not have known what the BDA would finally decide to do with HDR until the decision was made, but they might have known what Dolby, Philips and Technicolor were working on and maybe have built prototype players and code that supported all of them (and any manufacturer on the BDA workgroup must have definitely done so in order to give an educated opinion on what it entailed from a manufacturing point of view).

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I don't fully agree, for studios the final specs are more or less immaterial because the BD specs and 4K specs are known and they don't necessarily need to go with the extras (i.e. if the studio won't use HDR on a film then why would they need to know the HDR specs before beginning, if the content is 24fps, why would the studio need to wait to see if the BDA adds 48fps or changes it's mind and makes 50fps a global spec?..... Not only can the studios have a 4k film master ready, but they can have a BD master ready and even have replicated BDs ready. It might be jumping the gun but 4k BD is built on BD and so any critical feature is known.

Where I agree a bit is on manufactures, if the BDA decides X is mandatory then the device needs to support X. But my guess, like with the BD launch, most of the first generation players won't be SOC so even there you can have a large head start and just change the FW because of the overkill.

I think you are also missing something important, the different companies make the advancements, the BDA (or similar org) then decides what to do with those proposed techs (drop it, optional, mandatory...) so to the manufacturers it is not as murky as it is for us. What I mean is that a manufacturer might not have known what the BDA would finally decide to do with HDR until the decision was made, but they might have known what Dolby, Philips and Technicolor were working on and maybe have built prototype players and code that supported all of them (and any manufacturer on the BDA workgroup must have definitely done so in order to give an educated opinion on what it entailed from a manufacturing point of view).

Some of the specs that are being hashed out have to with the base video standards and how to encode the metadata. That fowls up the timing of the roll out of mastering and authoring software necessary to finalize the deliverable "package" to create glass masters and send them off to be replicated.

This was the reason for the hangup in at-home Dolby Atmos last year... the Blu-ray authoring software with support for the new audio codec (software mostly made by Sony) was delayed... delaying and shrinking the potential initial debut Atmos titles.

The BDA standards set the mastering and authoring software standards and work hand in hand, which must have time to be created and then sent to the various post houses. So, I would imagine studios are standing pat until the BDA has crossed their T's and dotted their i's. And once again, Sony may be dragging its heels. They tend to do that if there's technology involved they didn't have a controlling hand in making.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

The point is this is not a totally new format, just an extension to what we already have. And yet the industry is dragging their feet once again and once more the right hand doesn't seem to know what the left is doing. They make the same mistakes time after time after...

don't get me wrong the sooner the better, but I don't agree with you.

No matter what, launch will be small because anything else does not make sense. Movies are "perishable" ( for example a new release goes for 20$ and a few months later it is 15 and then 10 and then 5) Even if a studio could do it, it would be madness to release 1000 films on week one because consumers won't buy them (who has the $ and needs 1000 films at once) and by the time they get to some of them the consumer won't want to spend as much ( "that film came out a year ago, why are they charging full price")

Second I am not surer they are "dragging their feet". My guess is that you have never been part of a working group like this.

first you have self interest (we want X to be added because it is good for us, we don't want Y to be added because it is bad for us....)

e.g.

[Show spoiler] look at DTHD or VC1, I am sure Dolby and MS would have preferred if their rival was never included in the BD specs. So it is not enough to just be in it as an optional spec

then you have politics (we want X, you guys want Z , I will support Z, you support X we both say we don't want Y)

[Show spoiler] the BDF was formed because many companies were working on and wanted a new blue, .1mm HD format but some of the other companies in the DVD forum wanted to keep getting the DVD royalties their patents gave them and did not want to see those drop or disappear before the patents expired.

then you have feasibility (it is nice to have a bunch of specs but what will it mean for the studio, the replicator, the manufacturer.....)

[Show spoiler] I am sure we would all love a 500GB BD for 4k but can it be replicated with a cost that makes sense? what will it cost to have a device that supports Dolby's, Philips and Technicolor's HDR and will they all work together on one device? I have always thought that an RFID built into the disk would be an awesome idea - for the retailer it eliminates shoplifting and can be used for inventory control , for the consumer it could mean "fancier" multi disk players- distributed digital/physical AV server or a simple auto disk changer feature TVshow_1, TVshow_2... or Movie_1, movie_2 or would it be too

and lastly details (they always exist)

[spoiler] for example what profile do you add for video, how many speakers for audio....... CODECs are not enough[/quote]

It is never as simple as OK let's just add 4K, it always needs some time

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Some of the specs that are being hashed out have to with the base video standards and how to encode the metadata. That fowls up the timing of the roll out of mastering and authoring software necessary to finalize the deliverable "package" to create glass masters and send them off to be replicated.

This was the reason for the hangup in at-home Dolby Atmos last year... the Blu-ray authoring software with support for the new audio codec (software mostly made by Sony) was delayed... delaying and shrinking the potential initial debut Atmos titles.

The BDA standards set the mastering and authoring software standards and work hand in hand, which must have time to be created and then sent to the various post houses. So, I would imagine studios are standing pat until the BDA has crossed their T's and dotted their i's. And once again, Sony may be dragging its heels. They tend to do that if there's technology involved they didn't have a controlling hand in making.

agree but you missed the point I was making. Let me make it simple, if a studio did not care about using Atmos last year would they have been delayed? If a 50GB disk is enough for a film does the studio need to know what other sized disks might be an option? If a studio wants to use Atmos (or DTHD or DTS-MA....) does it matter what other audio 4k will support?

my point was that the basics are known because things (including resolution) are just being added to the existing BD in order to make the new 4k profile and compatibility won't be broken. Unless it is run by morons they won't say the new 4K BDs can't use BD-J or BDMV and must use BD4KM (a new menu system for 4k)

[jono3000]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I have always thought that an RFID built into the disk would be an awesome idea - for the retailer it eliminates shoplifting and can be used for inventory control , for the consumer it could mean "fancier" multi disk players- distributed digital/physical AV server or a simple auto disk changer feature TVshow_1, TVshow_2... or Movie_1, movie_2 or would it be too

Some good points Anthony, I wanted to address your RFID comment.

I work for an RFID company so wanted to add something here. There are many problems with this: the cost of the tag, the process of getting the tag onto the disc in the manufacturing process, interference from metal inhibits the ability to read the tag - so you couldn't read a disc in a steelbook or in a case in a metal basket or trolley, you would need an Reader and antenna in your disc player, worldwide differences in frequency regulations. Having said that there are advantages to be had in the supply and distribution chain of tracking items (cases), but I wouldn't consider a tagged disc to be practical once it reaches the retail stage or leaves Amazon's warehouse.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by jono3000

Some good points Anthony, I wanted to address your RFID comment.

I work for an RFID company so wanted to add something here.

thanks

There are many problems with this:

I am sure there are (namely I don't know much on the subject) it was just an idea that had crossed my mind once and thought it would be fun to add to the list under "feasibility" . I am sure if it made sense they would not need me.

the cost of the tag

there are a few films that have one in the case, that is where the initial idea came from. (unless I am using the wrong terminology)

interference from metal inhibits the ability to read the tag

good point for the retailer, I don't buy many steel books and not all films have one so it never clicked that steel books might be an issue

you would need an Reader and antenna in your disc player

obviously (and if you say they are prohibitively expensive that might explain why it would not be a good idea, but the idea at it simplest was something like the old multi disk CD cartridges from back in the day
you put the disks in the machine so the range was very well defined (i.e. within the machine)

worldwide differences in frequency regulations.

cool, never new that it also applied to stuff like RFID

[jono3000]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

thanks

I am sure there are (namely I don't know much on the subject) it was just an idea that had crossed my mind once and thought it would be fun to add to the list under "feasibility" . I am sure if it made sense they would not need me.


there are a few films that have one in the case, that is where the initial idea came from. (unless I am using the wrong terminology)


good point for the retailer, I don't buy many steel books and not all films have one so it never clicked that steel books might be an issue


obviously (and if you say they are prohibitively expensive that might explain why it would not be a good idea, but the idea at it simplest was something like the old multi disk CD cartridges from back in the day
you put the disks in the machine so the range was very well defined (i.e. within the machine)


cool, never new that it also applied to stuff like RFID

The films with a tag on the case - who put them there? The manufacturer or retailer?

The cost of a passive (ie no battery) tag is pennies, but in the food retail industry with very low profit margins even a few pence can be too much which is why most use currently is for high ticket price items eg meat and champagne.

The cost of the RFID reader and antenna varies according considerably, a HF (13.56MHz) only costing a few pounds but restricted on range to a few cm, to much more for UHF readers which have the range (circa 10m) but are subject to frequency regulations in each country.

It is technically feasible to have a HF tag on the disc and reader in the player that could identify the disc content (by looking up from an Internet database using the unique identifier encoded in the tag) and present a menu of discs in a changer or similar. Doesn't there already exist a system for commercial music CDs that uses Gracenote or similar?

Getting more back to topic it's more likely that support for larger capacity discs will appear at a later date, possibly when a 4K 3D specification is created.

[s2mikey]

So, are you all going to be replacing your entire movie catalogs with 4K versions? IMO that'd be completely crazy but to each their own. From normal viewing distances a good quality 1080p blu Ray setup looks terrific. Sure, 4K is more resolution on paper but..... Nevermind, not gonna even argue it.

I'm good with blu-Ray as it is and just can't see rebuying movies again. Did that going from DVD to BD. That's enough. I wonder if the public is going to bite though? 3D didn't work. It took blu Ray a while to even catch on and the DVDs still outsell the blu Ray for most films.

Niche market? We shall see. Have fun getting Joe Public to rebuy not only the movies again but his TV, AV unit, BD player, cables, etc. us guys are into the hobby so we tend to get roped in but the masses may not. That's all I'm saying. Especially when streaming and online TV services are so hot right now. Physical discs are awesome and I prefer them but most don't care.

[KRW1]

I expect to have one, perhaps two, players and about 6 titles on the market in 2015, November-ish, with more to follow next year. One reason I can think of for keeping their cards close to their chest is not wanting to hurt the bluray market between now and then. Although most won't, there'll be a fear people will stop buying BDs if they make a song and dance about it now. It's baby steps - I can't see any possible reason to rush into it until there's an actual player/titles to announce.

As for buying BDs now, i'll admit to a certain amount of caution when buying a title from a 4k scan, as there's a little voice in the back of my head telling me I should wait 12 months, which I know doesn't make any sense, it's just the words '4k' being on there.