Alien: Covenant (2017)

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by P-Rock

It's higly likely another space crew will stumble upon Shaw. Space pirates is my guess.

Crossover.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by dgoswald

I'm no expert on the Alien mythos by any stretch of the imagination, but does anyone else think the Engineer premise may have been the wrong direction to pursue in terms of creating an "origin" for the events / world of the Alien films? Having watched the first 2 Aliens films for the first time relatively recently (in the past 5 years; I wasn't into that kind of sci-fi as a kid) I don't feel the Engineers fit into the aesthetic of the world created and delivered in the original Alien film (and arguably the sequel). I don't know, like I said, this is all relatively new to me.

I actually loved all the ideas in the film, they just didn't pull any of them off very convincingly and tried to be far too vague about it all to try and be 'trendy'.

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by Impossible

I actually loved all the ideas in the film, they just didn't pull any of them off very convincingly and tried to be far too vague about it all to try and be 'trendy'.

I think I fall into that category. If the Engineer premise was what they went for I don't see a problem with that (not my cup of tea but that's fine, I'm a big boy, I can see beyond personal tastes), but as you said, the execution was off unfortunately.

Not sure I'd blame Lindelof entirely tbf. As someone who has discovered Ridley Scott in recent years (as strange as that sounds) I think he's not at the height of his once-considerable powers that were so evident in Alien and Blade Runner.

[Wernski]

Originally Posted by JamesBenjamin

I'll also add that the other big complaint people have is the stupid scientists doing stupid things... Well, its a horror/thriller movie. When you watch a Friday the 13th movie you KNOW the hot girl is going to investigate the noises outside even though its obviously the killer... well this is something similar. Its a plot device.

But I don't think most film lovers would say the F13 films are well written with high quality scripts, plotting and characters. Better scripts can get their characters into the situations they want (i.e. investigating the noise outside) while still acting intelligently, in character, and logically.

I would argue you have just pointed out that Prometheus shares a flaw with the F13th films, which is one of the reasons viewers were disappointed.

And for the record, I enjoyed both Prometheus and the Friday films. But I certainly wouldn't nominate any of them for screenwriting Oscars.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by dgoswald

I think I fall into that category. If the Engineer premise was what they went for I don't see a problem with that (not my cup of tea but that's fine, I'm a big boy, I can see beyond personal tastes), but as you said, the execution was off unfortunately.

Not sure I'd blame Lindelof entirely tbf. As someone who has discovered Ridley Scott in recent years (as strange as that sounds) I think he's not at the height of his once-considerable powers that were so evident in Alien and Blade Runner.

It's a common problem these days especially when you are trying to make something with a huge mythology.

I don't know if you ever saw the much derided Southland Tales, but that is exactly the same. There are literally like 3 lines of dialogue in the last scene of the Cannes cut that he removed from the final film (about 15 seconds) that explains the whole film and it's meaning perfectly and he (or whoever made the decision) just ruins the entire film by removing them.

[JamesBenjamin]

Originally Posted by Wernski

But I don't think most film lovers would say the F13 films are well written with high quality scripts, plotting and characters. Better scripts can get their characters into the situations they want (i.e. investigating the noise outside) while still acting intelligently, in character, and logically.

I would argue you have just pointed out that Prometheus shares a flaw with the F13th films, which is one of the reasons viewers were disappointed.

And for the record, I enjoyed both Prometheus and the Friday films. But I certainly wouldn't nominate any of them for screenwriting Oscars.

I wouldn't call it a flaw though, I'd call it plot movement. If every movie character took the time to study everything and take the proper steps and not take any risk, then we'd have nothing but boring movies. (Exemption for the upcoming flick The Martian, where "Sciencing the sh$t out of stuff" is expected).

Would it make that big of a difference if (for example) two security guards were left behind and they were the ones poking the critters? I guess that would solve that "flaw" but then there would be two more characters to write in. Plus then people would be like "omg security should have seen them as hostile" etc.

If you (royal you here) are going to pick apart the scientists and other plot moving "flaw" then you have to pick apart the whole mission: why not just sent 4-5 androids like David? Keepp Guy Peirce in his pod, maybe have one human pilot/captain. But if they made that movie, it would be boring.

[JamesBenjamin]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

Except these are supposed to be intelligent experts in their fields, not dumb bimbos running topless through a camp site.

My point was that they clearly weren't experts. They were whoever would take that job, for the money, no questions asked. They weren't at the top of their field. The one scientist guy is getting high on the job!

This makes no sense to me and seems like the Engineers made their Alien design plan a little bit too complicated.

Maybe I rambled a bit, but here's my point with that section (about the critters): the engineers wanted to make the Aliens we know. They took a bit of genetic material from each of 4-5 critters, combine it via some process and at the end you get Aliens. (in our world we might combine the genetic material in a lab, the engineers do it by this process that we only see parts of, thanks to the characters messing things up). Stuff in {brackets} is how the individual parts link to the Alien lifecycle we know.

Look at the critters individually: you get a worm that has "wings" (but no crab like legs) that latches onto someone's face {1/2 of facehugger} and squirts acid into them {alien's acid blood}, you have the black goo that mutates things and makes them aggressive (the guy who turned "zombie") {the alien's behavior}, boyfriend guy impregnates the lady with squid baby which then later implants an embryo of sorts into the engineer {via hugging his face the way a facehugger does, implanting it in his gut via his throat} and THAT turns into the "deacon" alien {similar to normal Alien, but smaller, less armored, and easier to kill}.

I haven't watched the flim in a while but I know there were other critter/mutation bits in there. There are also two different "goo" (goos?) in the film, the metal "eggs" melt when exposed to air which makes the black goo that mutates the worms and makes them agressive, but the goo that David uses on boyfriend guy is *inside* the egg (he removes the top that would normally have melted and finds a glass tube inside, inside that tube is the goo he puts in boyfriend's drink).

So imagine the whole life cycle, had the humans not been involved: Outer shell melts, mutates worms, worms break glass fighting with each other, new goo mutates them further adding the genetic material that David fed to boyfriend guy which makes something akin to a traditional facehugger, THAT facehugger attaches to an engineer and now instead of the crappy "deacon" Alien we get the ones we know from Alien.

Again, not trying to talk against one specific person I'm quoting, just trying to outline what I (and some others) see that many people have apparently missed.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by JamesBenjamin

Look at the critters individually: you get a worm that has "wings" (but no crab like legs) that latches onto someone's face {1/2 of facehugger} and squirts acid into them {alien's acid blood}, you have the black goo that mutates things and makes them aggressive (the guy who turned "zombie") {the alien's behavior}, boyfriend guy impregnates the lady with squid baby which then later implants an embryo of sorts into the engineer {via hugging his face the way a facehugger does, implanting it in his gut via his throat} and THAT turns into the "deacon" alien {similar to normal Alien, but smaller, less armored, and easier to kill}.

I haven't watched the flim in a while but I know there were other critter/mutation bits in there. There are also two different "goo" (goos?) in the film, the metal "eggs" melt when exposed to air which makes the black goo that mutates the worms and makes them agressive, but the goo that David uses on boyfriend guy is *inside* the egg (he removes the top that would normally have melted and finds a glass tube inside, inside that tube is the goo he puts in boyfriend's drink).

So imagine the whole life cycle, had the humans not been involved: Outer shell melts, mutates worms, worms break glass fighting with each other, new goo mutates them further adding the genetic material that David fed to boyfriend guy which makes something akin to a traditional facehugger, THAT facehugger attaches to an engineer and now instead of the crappy "deacon" Alien we get the ones we know from Alien.

Again, not trying to talk against one specific person I'm quoting, just trying to outline what I (and some others) see that many people have apparently missed.

Well the whole theme of the film was basically evolution so I don't think there was anything wrong with their 'monster' as clearly it was going to evolve into what we see later.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JamesBenjamin

If you (royal you here) are going to pick apart the scientists and other plot moving "flaw" then you have to pick apart the whole mission: why not just sent 4-5 androids like David? Keepp Guy Peirce in his pod, maybe have one human pilot/captain. But if they made that movie, it would be boring.

Only speaking for the non-royal me here but I think I'm starting to get real jaded by movie-making tropes in general, like the 'mission briefing' scene that doubles up as exposition for both the characters and the audience. So far, so typical of Prometheus, only in this case it seemed completely and utterly bizarre to me that otherwise rational people would allow themselves to be frozen and slung across however many million miles of space without knowing so much as a hint of what they're doing and why they're doing it. Then again, once they're thawed out they don't seem to be the most rational and balanced bunch of people anyway, so (as you've pointed out above) perhaps that's a sign that the Prometheus was always the crazy train.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by JamesBenjamin

My point was that they clearly weren't experts. They were whoever would take that job, for the money, no questions asked. They weren't at the top of their field. The one scientist guy is getting high on the job!

I only saw Prometheus once, in the cinema, so maybe they were a bunch of yahoos, you might be right. In that case I stand corrected.

Maybe I rambled a bit, but here's my point with that section (about the critters): the engineers wanted to make the Aliens we know. They took a bit of genetic material from each of 4-5 critters, combine it via some process and at the end you get Aliens. (in our world we might combine the genetic material in a lab, the engineers do it by this process that we only see parts of, thanks to the characters messing things up). Stuff in {brackets} is how the individual parts link to the Alien lifecycle we know.

Look at the critters individually: you get a worm that has "wings" (but no crab like legs) that latches onto someone's face {1/2 of facehugger} and squirts acid into them {alien's acid blood}, you have the black goo that mutates things and makes them aggressive (the guy who turned "zombie") {the alien's behavior}, boyfriend guy impregnates the lady with squid baby which then later implants an embryo of sorts into the engineer {via hugging his face the way a facehugger does, implanting it in his gut via his throat} and THAT turns into the "deacon" alien {similar to normal Alien, but smaller, less armored, and easier to kill}.

I haven't watched the flim in a while but I know there were other critter/mutation bits in there. There are also two different "goo" (goos?) in the film, the metal "eggs" melt when exposed to air which makes the black goo that mutates the worms and makes them agressive, but the goo that David uses on boyfriend guy is *inside* the egg (he removes the top that would normally have melted and finds a glass tube inside, inside that tube is the goo he puts in boyfriend's drink).

So imagine the whole life cycle, had the humans not been involved: Outer shell melts, mutates worms, worms break glass fighting with each other, new goo mutates them further adding the genetic material that David fed to boyfriend guy which makes something akin to a traditional facehugger, THAT facehugger attaches to an engineer and now instead of the crappy "deacon" Alien we get the ones we know from Alien.

Again, not trying to talk against one specific person I'm quoting, just trying to outline what I (and some others) see that many people have apparently missed.

Okay I understand what you're saying... I think... but it still seems awfully complicated and something the filmmakers should have streamlined.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

it seemed completely and utterly bizarre to me that otherwise rational people would allow themselves to be frozen and slung across however many million miles of space without knowing so much as a hint of what they're doing and why they're doing it.

You're clearly not a freelancer lol

[Geoff D]

Indeed. Hell, maybe that's what Weyland did when he put the mission together. He couldn't find any sane people to go into the arse end of space without being told why, so he recruited a bunch of loonies instead. I'll watch it again with that mindset and see how I get on.

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Indeed. Hell, maybe that's what Weyland did when he put the mission together. He couldn't find any sane people to go into the arse end of space without being told why, so he recruited a bunch of loonies instead. I'll watch it again with that mindset and see how I get on.

The Scottish fella who was with the Rafe Spall character seemed unnecessarily aggressive. He was a scientist / intellectual, but he conducted himself like an old-school police inspector, lol.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by dgoswald

The Scottish fella who was with the Rafe Spall character seemed unnecessarily aggressive. He was a scientist / intellectual, but he conducted himself like an old-school police inspector, lol.

In fairness that is really the only role that actor is capable of playing lol

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by Impossible

In fairness that is really the only role that actor is capable of playing lol

Spall's character is trying to break the ice by being friendly, and the other fella comes out with, "I'm not here to be your friend," or words to that affect. I'm like, "Steady on, he was only being nice." That was the moment when I began to think that there's something a bit dodgy about the characterisation here. When the boyfriend character (Tom Hardy-lite) starts laying into David in that passive aggressive manner he did I was actively looking forward to his inevitable death.

[JamesBenjamin]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

Okay I understand what you're saying... I think... but it still seems awfully complicated and something the filmmakers should have streamlined.

Yeah, I'm kinda hoping they have a more direct explanation in the sequel so it makes more sense. Or if they had put a "Alien biology" featurette on the DVD to explain it.

I think part of the problem with the movie's reception is people expected an Alien-like movie and its really not. Its more of a sci-fi thriller with a slow burn, and a bunch of hidden/subtle things. I remember one of the major complaints when it came out was the two women running in the path of the rolling spaceship at the end and why they wouldn't duck to one side or the other. I mean, that's a trope in EVERYTHING but it was somehow a huge "flaw" here. I think its one of those things where in 20 years people will still be finding things in this movie when other movies are forgotten.

But they really can make it make more sense in a sequel, just show more of the "science" behind the Alien creatures.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by dgoswald

Spall's character is trying to break the ice by being friendly, and the other fella comes out with, "I'm not here to be your friend," or words to that affect. I'm like, "Steady on, he was only being nice." That was the moment when I began to think that there's something a bit dodgy about the characterisation here. When the boyfriend character (Tom Hardy-lite) starts laying into David in that passive aggressive manner he did I was actively looking forward to his inevitable death.

Yeah, to call the characters "broadly sketched" is something of an understatement. Again, perhaps that's all part of the plan, to have the robot dude be the most sympathetic character amongst the human crew whereas Ash was an intergalactic douchebag in the original Alien. In that respect it does have more of a slasher film vibe to the characterisation, you can't wait for these dilberts to die in increasingly horrible and gooey ways.

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, to call the characters "broadly sketched" is something of an understatement. Again, perhaps that's all part of the plan, to have the robot dude be the most sympathetic character amongst the human crew whereas Ash was an intergalactic douchebag in the original Alien. In that respect it does have more of a slasher film vibe to the characterisation, you can't wait for these dilberts to die in increasingly horrible and gooey ways.

Dilberts.

I liked the almost improvisational quality of the crew's interactions in Alien. They seemed like normal people, particularly during scenes when they ate. But then I guess they were the equivalent of what would be blue collar workers; down to earth and chilled I guess. Whereas amongst the apparently more refined and educated crew in Prometheus there was a lot of tension between crew members for no or, at least, spuriously superficial reasons.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, to call the characters "broadly sketched" is something of an understatement. Again, perhaps that's all part of the plan, to have the robot dude be the most sympathetic character amongst the human crew whereas Ash was an intergalactic douchebag in the original Alien. In that respect it does have more of a slasher film vibe to the characterisation, you can't wait for these dilberts to die in increasingly horrible and gooey ways.

How was David sympathetic? He was just as manipulative and as much a liar as Ash.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by dgoswald

Dilberts.

I liked the almost improvisational quality of the crew's interactions in Alien. They seemed like normal people, particularly during scenes when they ate.

Yes that was missed in all the sequels especially Aliens where all you got was cliched army jerk bullshit.