4K Movies Releases

[dvdmike]

Over 80% will be upscales

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Over 80% will be upscales

how u noe dis?

[Opips3]

Hollywods annoy many many superheroes movies...highest price spend films.

Hollywoods do not care...about superheroes. Your family kid is a four years old wants to watch movie spider-man.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

how u noe dis?

You hear things here and there, plus cost plus 2k di's plus reality.

Look at everyone bar Sony its crazy how poorly this has been handled

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Over 80% will be upscales

Originally Posted by Geoff D

how u noe dis?

After Penton posted that Light Iron video about Ender's Game, I also watched this other Light Iron video about Arri's 4k workflow from their 3k cameras. If you go to the 3:35 mark, they guesstimate that 99% of films are finished at 2k.

https://vimeo.com/96252497

[dvdmike]

That's a broad generalisation, many films were shot 35mm with no special visual effects bar the credits and opticals

[Opips3]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Of what, Phantom Menace? First I've heard of it. When the Blu-rays were announced they made a big thing about going back to the original 2K files and bypassing any filmed out elements completely (which is what the DVD was derived from).

I read magazine or internet opinion review about Phantom Menace is poor movie. Blame Jar Jar Binds

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I could be wrong but if that's what Josh is saying then he's missed the point spectacularly (and it wouldn't be the first time, gawd love him), as the film can be rebuilt from the 'raw' materials using metadata derived from the original grading/editing sessions, preferably in conjunction with the original colourist. So decisions about framing (with >4K shows usually shooting for a 4K extraction, as per the Light Iron tutorial of Ender's Game), split-screening of takes, power windows and all the other subtleties present in the original grade aren't just thrown out, they're used to rebuild the movie whilst simultaneously applying the new HDR grading.

Now, we've got no guarantees that this is being done for EVERY 4K HDR movie, I'm not naive enough to assume that, and (as was said above) films with wall-to-wall VFX or those that are entirely CG animated will have mostly upscaled content. That much is true. But for films that ARE properly rebuilt, as The Martian was, they're effectively getting a brand new 4K DI. (Yeah, the VFX will still be 2K but this is par for the course for first-run 4K finishes anyway, and will be for a while yet.)

Well this rebuild process is something I (and perhaps Josh?) am/are unaware of. That changes everything in terms of my understanding. Is there a good (but not too lengthy) primer you might direct me to, sir?

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

Well this rebuild process is something I (and perhaps Josh?) am/are unaware of. That changes everything in terms of my understanding. Is there a good (but not too lengthy) primer you might direct me to, sir?

[Opips3]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

From Dolby Vision idea...

Well done.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by puddy77

After Penton posted that Light Iron video about Ender's Game, I also watched this other Light Iron video about Arri's 4k workflow from their 3k cameras. If you go to the 3:35 mark, they guesstimate that 99% of films are finished at 2k.

[Show spoiler]https://vimeo.com/96252497

Yes, "finished in 2K" in the past tense, absolutely. But people need to understand that some movies are being rebuilt at a higher resolution from the original source materials, 2K VFX notwithstanding. When grading for HDR they need to use a source with as high a dynamic range as possible, and although a 10-bit P3 finish will do in a pinch they will get better results by using camera originals (be it negative or raw digital data) and that's exactly what Fox did with The Martian, rebuilding it in 4K for the HDR version even though the standard version did indeed have a 2K DI. (2themax confirmed the 4K DV finish a few months ago, in fact: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...k#post11409376 )

One handy bonus of going back to the original capture is that they can also harvest a true 4K extraction at the same time, and although there are no guarantees that this will happen for every single 2K -> UHD migration (for the reasons Mike states above, cost & time above all) I feel a lot better about the situation than I once did.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, "finished in 2K" in the past tense, absolutely. But people need to understand that some movies are being rebuilt at a higher resolution from the original source materials, 2K VFX notwithstanding. When grading for HDR they need to use a source with as high a dynamic range as possible, and although a 10-bit P3 finish will do in a pinch they will get better results by using camera originals (be it negative or raw digital data) and that's exactly what Fox did with The Martian, rebuilding it in 4K for the HDR version even though the standard version did indeed have a 2K DI. (2themax confirmed the 4K DV finish a few months ago, in fact: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...k#post11409376 )

One handy bonus of going back to the original capture is that they can also harvest a true 4K extraction at the same time, and although there are no guarantees that this will happen for every single 2K -> UHD migration (for the reasons Mike states above, cost & time above all) I feel a lot better about the situation than I once did.

I feel better about "real" 4k content but there is the HDR fun to be had yet.
I don't see them spending the cash on many post launch weirdly, it took BD what 8+ years to get new decent masters on most titles?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

I feel better about "real" 4k content but there is the HDR fun to be had yet.

How is the Martian 4K rebuild not "real" though? It's been assembled just as 99% of all other 4K finishes have been: 2K VFX, 4K live action (or live action with minimal VFX).

I don't see them spending the cash on many post launch weirdly, it took BD what 8+ years to get new decent masters on most titles?

That's true enough but so many studios were still in a learning stage about how best to approach BD (even the mighty Sony, see TFE) whereas now I think they're a bit more savvy as to how catalogue titles can and should look, in HD and beyond. HDR itself presents another learning curve to be sure, but there will be little room for half-assing this format: if it doesn't blow the bloody doors off then it will fail, and fail hard. Universal and Paramount banging out a load of upscales from their dreadfully inept back catalogue of DNR horrors just won't cut it (perhaps that's why those two have been so quiet about UHD Blu, they're bricking it that they might have to spend some money or they'll be laughed out of town ).

Yeah, if I put my cynical hat on (pffft, when do I take it off?) then it's easy to think that once the initial wave is over and they've hooked consumers then they'll cut back on proper 4K-res rebuilds, or maybe this really is the start of the 4K era? Interesting times ahead.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

How is the Martian 4K rebuild not "real" though? It's been assembled just as 99% of all other 4K finishes have been: 2K VFX, 4K live action (or live action with minimal VFX).


That's true enough but so many studios were still in a learning stage about how best to approach BD (even the mighty Sony, see TFE) whereas now I think they're a bit more savvy as to how catalogue titles can and should look, in HD and beyond. HDR itself presents another learning curve to be sure, but there will be little room for half-assing this format: if it doesn't blow the bloody doors off then it will fail, and fail hard. Universal and Paramount banging out a load of upscales from their dreadfully inept back catalogue of DNR horrors just won't cut it (perhaps that's why those two have been so quiet about UHD Blu, they're bricking it that they might have to spend some money or they'll be laughed out of town ).

Yeah, if I put my cynical hat on (pffft, when do I take it off?) then it's easy to think that once the initial wave is over and they've hooked consumers then they'll cut back on proper 4K-res rebuilds, or maybe this really is the start of the 4K era? Interesting times ahead.

There is a ton of CGI in the Martian
Its not the best example really of the idea, but so few films even are shot over 2.8k

[Geoff D]

Sure, point being that even if it had a 4K finish from the beginning the VFX would be in the exact same boat. So would that no longer be a proper 4K title in any case?

And you're quite right that there's a LOT of Alexa-shot stuff out there, but with 2.8K being double the pixels of the final 2K deliverable there's still something to be said for uprezzing that into a 4K finish from the raw capture instead of starting from the final 2K files. It didn't hurt Skyfall, after all. Perhaps you could ask Roger his thoughts on that?

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sure, point being that even if it had a 4K finish from the beginning the VFX would be in the exact same boat. So would that no longer be a proper 4K title in any case?

And you're quite right that there's a LOT of Alexa-shot stuff out there, but with 2.8K being double the pixels of the final 2K deliverable there's still something to be said for uprezzing that into a 4K finish from the raw capture instead of starting from the final 2K files. It didn't hurt Skyfall, after all. Perhaps you could ask Roger his thoughts on that?

No I mean the effects rendered at 4k, that would be an end to end 4k finish in my eyes.
Plus don't forget a lot of the Martian was shot POV of the many cameras he uses and they were far, far, far from 4k
It's just a shame we have to resort to this at all really, but its shocking how little 4k shot stuff there is really.
The catch of its above 2k is a little weak to hang a format on.
But tbh bar the Samsung stuff we have not seen these upscales yet in detail.
I did ask him

[Geoff D]

Oooh, tell me when he replies.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Oooh, tell me when he replies.

May be more if than when, but I will do

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

[Show spoiler]

Thanks. (FWIW I Googled and found that, according to ray0414 who posted same on AVS, this was tweeted last week by Fox employee James Finn). This is a start. But this is likely not going to be SOP at every studio even with new releases much less catalog.

I'd love to hear from Darius Wolski on this. Maybe a compare/contrast regarding what was done on Martian versus what could/couldn't be done in terms of HDR grading on another pic he shot 20 years (!) ago which I'd love to see on UHD BD, Crimson Tide.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

Thanks. (FWIW I Googled and found that, according to ray0414 who posted same on AVS, this was tweeted last week by Fox employee James Finn). This is a start. But this is likely not going to be SOP at every studio even with new releases much less catalog.

I'd love to hear from Darius Wolski on this. Maybe a compare/contrast regarding what was done on Martian versus what could/couldn't be done in terms of HDR grading on another pic he shot 20 years (!) ago which I'd love to see on UHD BD, Crimson Tide.

Crimson tide was already shot and timed tho, and Tony can no longer oversee it