HDMI 2.1: HDR Dynamic Metadata

[Vashetti]

Can someone explain in layman's terms what it actually does?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Vashetti

Can someone explain in layman's terms what it actually does?

Different TVs have different levels of maximum performance, in terms of brightness or colour gamut or whatever, right? What the dynamic metadata allows the HDR TV to do is to actually adjust the brightness, colour etc on a "content dependent" shot-by-shot basis to better suit the performance of the TV and to better convey the original intent of the HDR grade. (This also applies to the SDR transform too)

The current static metadata has nothing like this level of finesse which is why I think we're seeing such radically different opinions of these UHD discs so far, and why people are having to do so much tweakery from movie to movie. All it's doing is adjusting the image in a cruder way, not on a shot-by-shot basis but on a fixed global level.

Make sense?

[Vashetti]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Different TVs have different levels of maximum performance, in terms of brightness or colour gamut or whatever, right? What the dynamic metadata allows the HDR TV to do is to actually adjust the brightness, colour etc on a "content dependent" shot-by-shot basis to better suit the performance of the TV and to better convey the original intent of the HDR grade. (This also applies to the SDR transform too)

The current static metadata has nothing like this level of finesse which is why I think we're seeing such radically different opinions of these UHD discs so far, and why people are having to do so much tweakery from movie to movie. All it's doing is adjusting the image in a cruder way, not on a shot-by-shot basis but on a fixed global level.

Make sense?

Makes perfect sense, thanks

So effectively, current hardware is still 'underspecced' so to speak, and for someone like me who hasn't updated to any 4K capable hardware yet, it's best to keep waiting?

[Geoff D]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell, yep: it's been launched half-baked, but then such is the curse of the early adopter and/or the terminally rich (delete as applicable). Still, they had to launch UHD Blu now after several years of vague hints and promises, as waiting another year or 18 months could've been terminal for the format.

The more I think about it the more I'm definitely not gonna move on a new TV until the issue of dynamic metadata is sorted out with the adoption of SMPTE ST 2094 and the means to transmit it (HDMI two-point-whatever). Maybe I shouldn't be so jealous of the current HDR cool kids after all!

Deffo gonna get the Panasonic player though!

[flyry]

Originally Posted by Canada

Jesus, how in the world do you keep up I mean, my God.

Its getting ridiculous and I'm a damn nerd. The average consumer will be even more lost

[PRO-630HD]

Now truth be told with HDR 10 specifically HDMI 2.1 isn't going to make a difference anyway is it? Since the metadata is static would 2.1 alter the picture on the currently released HDR 10 UHD bluray's for example.

Curious now if the newer LG B and C series OLED's coming out this summer will have HDMI 2.1 or of this is possibly FW upgradeable.

[Ruined]

Even if HDR10 is using static metadata right now, I wouldn't be surprised if it were revised in the future to use the dynamic metadata feature of HDMI 2.1 to keep up with Dolby and Philips.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Different TVs have different levels of maximum performance, in terms of brightness or colour gamut or whatever, right? What the dynamic metadata allows the HDR TV to do is to actually adjust the brightness, colour etc on a "content dependent" shot-by-shot basis to better suit the performance of the TV and to better convey the original intent of the HDR grade. (This also applies to the SDR transform too)

The current static metadata has nothing like this level of finesse which is why I think we're seeing such radically different opinions of these UHD discs so far, and why people are having to do so much tweakery from movie to movie. All it's doing is adjusting the image in a cruder way, not on a shot-by-shot basis but on a fixed global level.

Make sense?

So Geoff, the dynamic data (which will probably be Dolby Vision) doesn't actually make the picture have a higher dynamic range than HDR10, but simply acts as a live calibrator to give more accurate colors and brightness levels?

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Even if HDR10 is using static metadata right now, I wouldn't be surprised if it were revised in the future to use the dynamic metadata feature of HDMI 2.1 to keep up with Dolby and Philips.

That would be nice.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

So Geoff, the dynamic data (which will probably be Dolby Vision) doesn't actually make the picture have a higher dynamic range than HDR10, but simply acts as a live calibrator to give more accurate colors and brightness levels?

Right basically HDMI 2.0a enables HDR; HDMI 2.1 enables HDR (and sdr downconversion) to be as accurate and as consistent as possible across the wildly varying hardware out there.

Pretty important IMO if accuracy is important to you, which I assume it is to most posting here. Most in this forum dont just want retina-burning "pop," they want accuracy also - where HDMI 2.1 comes in.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

So Geoff, the dynamic data (which will probably be Dolby Vision) doesn't actually make the picture have a higher dynamic range than HDR10, but simply acts as a live calibrator to give more accurate colors and brightness levels?

Dynamic metadata is better because the graders can change it scene to scene when grading.

I know a guy who does hdr10 grading and he tried doing scene to scene with hdr10 and ran into problems and had to just leave it alone.

With that said, his hdr video is gorgious and probably the best I've seen thus far.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

dynamic metadata
static metadata

Never heard of them.

[Penton-Man]

Wait, I remember, sounds quite elegant to me - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post11668726

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Right basically HDMI 2.0a enables HDR; HDMI 2.1 enables HDR (and sdr downconversion) to be as accurate and as consistent as possible across the wildly varying hardware out there.

Pretty important IMO if accuracy is important to you, which I assume it is to most posting here. Most in this forum dont just want retina-burning "pop," they want accuracy also - where HDMI 2.1 comes in.

As far as colors go so far what I've seen looks pretty accurate (compared to the BD) and pretty damn good I might add. If DV makes it better then fine but I have really no way of knowing whether the non-color parameters are "accurate" or not but they certainly look far more realistic than what's on the BD (shadow detail, highlights, explosions, fires, etc, they all come to life).

But Goeff brought up something interesting, that dynamic metadata will allow accurate HDR-->SDR conversions. That will be very important since it gives the option to watch DV movies without HDR and be accurate (compared to the BD) at the same time. For example if Lawrence of Arabia comes out in HDR only, but does have Dolby Vision, then it can be watched both ways, which would be really cool.

[katiehlvr2]

Sooo,
For those of us wanting to jump on the hdr train, with this being said, should i hold off on buying the sony930c? 15 model?

I am actually very pleased with my display hooked up to uhd with resolution alone.
I would like a 65 inch hdr but I do not want to get burnt again like I did with the sdr.
Anyone have any thoughts on the risks of buying a 2016 or 15 tv now?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

So Geoff, the dynamic data (which will probably be Dolby Vision) doesn't actually make the picture have a higher dynamic range than HDR10, but simply acts as a live calibrator to give more accurate colors and brightness levels?

I guess you could interpret it that way, yeah (further settings adjustments at the consumer end aside). But I think Dolby Vision itself will still be encoded to disc with more than 1000 nits brightness, you've got to get it out of your head that metadata is something that you can "see" in the image...it's not. Think of it as a selection of messages that are carried along with the actual luma and chroma signals that you can physically see; these messages then tell the display how to adjust itself.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Vashetti

Can someone explain in layman's terms what it actually does?

This is pretty much as layman as I can get….

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, why should discerning enthusiasts interested in best possible picture quality (like Kris Deering astutely was with the mastering gamma topic back in the day) care or concern themselves about such esoteric things like the various HDR solutions and implementations as such for home viewers?

Well because, as I mentioned last May in the ‘4K Blu-ray Confirmed’ sticky thread (of which I note is moving along at a lightning pace and I just don’t have time to keep up with right now, so apologies to anyone whose asked me questions in that thread, plus the reporters should be covering a lot of what's happening), anyway, as I said last May (long before it became in fashion to talk about) in response to jono3000

“Not all metadata is equal. There is static metadata and dynamic metadata“

So, to reiterate again for new readers….

For HDR10….think static metadata.

For Dolby Vision….think dynamic metadata….meaning every time the scene changes in a movie, there is a new set of metadata that informs the display management engine inside a Dolby Vision television on how best to map the color volume of the source content.....and remember....color volume is the combination of the dynamic range and the color gamut (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post11011071 )

So, for those who don’t catch the drift nor venture into a mastering suite, as far as ‘Premium’ HDR content for movies in terms of elegance…..
Dolby Vision > HDR10 > ST 2084 with no metadata > plain old SDR

Now, as a footnote, not to give Dolby all the HDR accolades because the PQ approach (Dolby) actually codes the picture on a reference display and needs metadata to do so…..with regards to broadcast of live content (sports and such) you don’t have reference displays nor the luxury of a lot of time; ergo, the hybrid log gamma approach in which coding what the camera sees in the signal is an appetizing solution for live material.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by katiehlvr2

Sooo,
For those of us wanting to jump on the hdr train, with this being said, should i hold off on buying the sony930c? 15 model?

I am actually very pleased with my display hooked up to uhd with resolution alone.
I would like a 65 inch hdr but I do not want to get burnt again like I did with the sdr.
Anyone have any thoughts on the risks of buying a 2016 or 15 tv now?

Depends on your budget too. 2016 tvs will be priced higher and will take months to drop in price.

The intriguing cheap tv of 2016 is the Philips 8600 dolby vision hdr tv with a rumored 120 zones for 1699 but not launching until late spring.

[katiehlvr2]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Depends on your budget too. 2016 tvs will be priced higher and will take months to drop in price.

The intriguing cheap tv of 2016 is the Philips 8600 dolby vision hdr tv with a rumored 120 zones for 1699 but not launching until late spring.

Ray, would you hold off on buying a 2015 sony at this point?

Lol, when will it be safe to buy a tv? Anyone?

My situation would be to grab the 930c now or wait and get the 850d later this summer.
Im just not sure what to do.

Also is that tv you mention 65 inch?

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by katiehlvr2

Ray, would you hold off on buying a 2015 sony at this point?

Lol, when will it be safe to buy a tv? Anyone?

My situation would be to grab the 930c now or wait and get the 850d later this summer.
Im just not sure what to do.

Also is that tv you mention 65 inch?

Yes 65".

Personally I'd take the 930c over the 850d.