4K stream better quality than blu Ray disc?

[bokes]

I take delivery of a 4K monitor in a few weeks and I'm curious about 4K streaming.
It's been my experience that what Netflix, Amazon and iTunes call 1080p HD still falls short of an actual blu Ray disc.
So I'm quite skeptical of a 4K stream.
I doubt it will match A UHD disc.
So will a 4K stream at least beat a blu Ray?

[RBBrittain]

4K streaming will always fall short of UHD for the same reason HD streaming (even at 1080p) always falls short of BD -- lossy compression into a lower-capacity Internet pipe. It remains to be seen if 4K streaming can reach BD quality -- it probably depends on the quality of the encode -- but I doubt it.

[Agent_DVD]

it does, mainly because of HDR

[bokes]

Thanks

[Andyways]

Originally Posted by RBBrittain

4K streaming will always fall short of UHD for the same reason HD streaming (even at 1080p) always falls short of BD -- lossy compression into a lower-capacity Internet pipe. It remains to be seen if 4K streaming can reach BD quality -- it probably depends on the quality of the encode -- but I doubt it.

Vudu on PS3 allows you to download the movie, how would the quality compare downloaded?

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by Andyways

Vudu on PS3 allows you to download the movie, how would the quality compare downloaded?

Its the same file. If your diwnload stream is good, it shouldn't matter.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Andyways

Vudu on PS3 allows you to download the movie, how would the quality compare downloaded?

Originally Posted by Greyman

Its the same file. If your download stream is good, it shouldn't matter.

I say it does matter, the Downloaded File is Compressed while the Streaming File has the Higher BitRate depending on your set up and Bandwidth. With Vudu HDX you get Blu-ray Disc Quality if you have the right set up and Bandwidth. This should hold true for 4K as well, again depending on your set up and Bandwidth.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I say it does matter, the Downloaded File is Compressed while the Streaming File has the Higher BitRate depending on your set up and Bandwidth. With Vudu HDX you get Blu-ray Disc Quality if you have the right set up and Bandwidth. This should hold true for 4K as well, again depending on your set up and Bandwidth.

On the Vudu forums a mod said they used the same source file for streaming and download with the same quality for each.

[applemac]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I say it does matter, the Downloaded File is Compressed while the Streaming File has the Higher BitRate depending on your set up and Bandwidth. With Vudu HDX you get Blu-ray Disc Quality if you have the right set up and Bandwidth. This should hold true for 4K as well, again depending on your set up and Bandwidth.

HDX = bluray? ... not a snowball's chance in hell.

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by applemac

HDX = bluray? ... not a snowball's chance in hell.

Absolutely correct, because HDX (stream OR download) is far more compressed than BD; the same for 4K streaming vs. UHD. However, the jury is out on 4K streaming vs. BD, as the OP asked about; greater compression could be offset by newer codecs, more raw pixels, and/or HDR.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by applemac

HDX = bluray? ... not a snowball's chance in hell.

Originally Posted by RBBrittain

Absolutely correct, because HDX (stream OR download) is far more compressed than BD; the same for 4K streaming vs. UHD. However, the jury is out on 4K streaming vs. BD, as the OP asked about; greater compression could be offset by newer codecs, more raw pixels, and/or HDR.

I don't know why you guys are in such denial, Vudu with it's Variable BitRate has the ability to Stream Blu-ray Quality Video. If you have FTTH, and are set up properly there is no reason to believe the BitRate for Blu-ray and HDX can't be the same. Vudu Servers are massive, and able to hold and Stream large HDX Files giving full Blu-ray Quality BitRate.

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I don't know why you guys are in such denial, Vudu with it's Variable BitRate has the ability to Stream Blu-ray Quality Video. If you have FTTH, and are set up properly there is no reason to believe the BitRate for Blu-ray and HDX can't be the same. Vudu Servers are massive, and able to hold and Stream large HDX Files giving full Blu-ray Quality BitRate.

There are absolutely not the same. From VUDU Engineering:

HDX max bitrate is 9Mbps, UHD max rate is 15Mbps. They are adaptive so they will work with lower bandwidth at reduced resolution/quality.

Blu-ray far exceeds 9Mbps, with rates that target between 15-25Mbps and peak at 40Mbps. UHD discs peak at 108Mbps.

VUDU's HDX offers roughly twice the bitrate of iTunes (4.5-5Mbps) and nearly 4x other UV providers (2.5Mbps). HDX is very good and I prefer VUDU over Blu-ray for other reasons but pretending it's equivalent to Blu-ray is silly.

[Krizzle1]

4K stream better than Bluray?

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I don't know why you guys are in such denial, Vudu with it's Variable BitRate has the ability to Stream Blu-ray Quality Video. If you have FTTH, and are set up properly there is no reason to believe the BitRate for Blu-ray and HDX can't be the same. Vudu Servers are massive, and able to hold and Stream large HDX Files giving full Blu-ray Quality BitRate.

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

There are absolutely not the same. From VUDU Engineering:

Blu-ray far exceeds 9Mbps, with rates that target between 15-25Mbps and peak at 40Mbps. UHD discs peak at 108Mbps.

VUDU's HDX offers roughly twice the bitrate of iTunes (4.5-5Mbps) and nearly 4x other UV providers (2.5Mbps). HDX is very good and I prefer VUDU over Blu-ray for other reasons but pretending it's equivalent to Blu-ray is silly.

With Stats you can discredit anything, but your Engineer Posts are a year old and you know how Technology moves so fast. The BitRate at 9.5Mbps is the Average, but it can go much higher depending on the connection set up. Two or three years ago it was going up to 20Mbps, so by now it should be up to 40Mbps just like Blu-ray. I have FTTH, and I know other Posters who have said they see no difference between Blu-ray Disc and HDX. BitRate is all determined by the size of the File, and if you have Direct Access to the Vudu Server with Blu-ray Quality Files there is no reason to deny these Streaming capabilities.

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by alchav21

With Stats you can discredit anything, but your Engineer Posts are a year old and you know how Technology moves so fast. The BitRate at 9.5Mbps is the Average, but it can go much higher depending on the connection set up. Two or three years ago it was going up to 20Mbps, so by now it should be up to 40Mbps just like Blu-ray. I have FTTH, and I know other Posters who have said they see no difference between Blu-ray Disc and HDX. BitRate is all determined by the size of the File, and if you have Direct Access to the Vudu Server with Blu-ray Quality Files there is no reason to deny these Streaming capabilities.

No, you're simply wrong. HDX has been the same since it was released. Upgrading the infrastructure and getting their content partners to deliver new encodes would be a nontrivial effort. You've offered hand-waving about technology being fast as a refutation of what a VUDU engineer, with close knowledge of their own infrastructure, stated.

Dismissing "stats" in general and then supplying your own as a defense is absurd. Surely numbers aren't everything but they're most relevant here. There is an old aphorism about cars: There's no substitute for cubic inches. In this case there's no substitute for bitrate. I believe VUDU is the highest H.264 bitrate streamer. For comparison, Netflix SuperHD is 6Mbps. Both HDX and SuperHD look very good but neither match Blu-ray. Could some streamed content look better than some Blu-ray content? Absolutely. But that has more to do with the source/encode than the network.

The 9Mbps rate is not the average, it's the maximum. It doesn't burst higher, it's adaptive downwards. There's no 20Mbps average happening. Could you see transient spikes of 20Mbps using a network analysis tool? Sure. Then you'd see it drop to a minimal level, even 0Mbps. That has to do with network transport and buffering and isn't representative of the bitrate for the video stream contained within.

Saying that some people perceive HDX to be equivalent to Blu-ray is meaningless unless they watched the same content in the same controlled environment on the same equipment. A common rule of thumb is that you need double the bitrate to see a difference. Blu-ray is going to typically offer double the bitrate over HDX. If this was a debate between 9Mbps and 11Mbps, I would agree that many people could perceive them as being the same. But that's not the case here.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

No, you're simply wrong. HDX has been the same since it was released. Upgrading the infrastructure and getting their content partners to deliver new encodes would be a nontrivial effort. You've offered hand-waving about technology being fast as a refutation of what a VUDU engineer, with close knowledge of their own infrastructure, stated.

Dismissing "stats" in general and then supplying your own as a defense is absurd. Surely numbers aren't everything but they're most relevant here. There is an old aphorism about cars: There's no substitute for cubic inches. In this case there's no substitute for bitrate. I believe VUDU is the highest H.264 bitrate streamer. For comparison, Netflix SuperHD is 6Mbps. Both HDX and SuperHD look very good but neither match Blu-ray. Could some streamed content look better than some Blu-ray content? Absolutely. But that has more to do with the source/encode than the network.

The 9Mbps rate is not the average, it's the maximum. It doesn't burst higher, it's adaptive downwards. There's no 20Mbps average happening. Could you see transient spikes of 20Mbps using a network analysis tool? Sure. Then you'd see it drop to a minimal level, even 0Mbps. That has to do with network transport and buffering and isn't representative of the bitrate for the video stream contained within.

Saying that some people perceive HDX to be equivalent to Blu-ray is meaningless unless they watched the same content in the same controlled environment on the same equipment. A common rule of thumb is that you need double the bitrate to see a difference. Blu-ray is going to typically offer double the bitrate over HDX. If this was a debate between 9Mbps and 11Mbps, I would agree that many people could perceive them as being the same. But that's not the case here.

I know you are a very knowledgeable person, but I have been Streaming Video over 25 years. I use to Back-up my DVD's, and put them on a Home Server and Stream them to my HDTV with full BitRate. So I know for a fact this is possible on a Network. My ISP has me on an Intra-Net, and has Direct Access to the Vudu Server. I'm sure you have heard of Kaleidescape, they have been doing this for many years at Blu-ray Quality BitRate. Talk to your Engineering contacts, and ask them if this is possible I'm sure they will concur.

I Retired from PacBell, AT&T now, and they pioneered Video Conferencing on Fiber T3's with full BitRate real live Video. Your assumptions are for low end Copper connections, the Future is Fiber Networks, and there are no limits here. Streaming Video is here to stay, and the possibilities are endless!

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I know you are a very knowledgeable person, but I have been Streaming Video over 25 years. I use to Back-up my DVD's, and put them on a Home Server and Stream them to my HDTV with full BitRate. So I know for a fact this is possible on a Network. My ISP has me on an Intra-Net, and has Direct Access to the Vudu Server. I'm sure you have heard of Kaleidescape, they have been doing this for many years at Blu-ray Quality BitRate. Talk to your Engineering contacts, and ask them if this is possible I'm sure they will concur.

I Retired from PacBell, AT&T now, and they pioneered Video Conferencing on Fiber T3's with full BitRate real live Video. Your assumptions are for low end Copper connections, the Future is Fiber Networks, and there are no limits here. Streaming Video is here to stay, and the possibilities are endless!

In a former life I designed and oversaw deployment of IP networking for over 6k employees at a Fortune 50. We used fiber then. I have FTTH now. I don't understand your point here at all. The issue is not whether streaming 20Mbps H.264 is technically possible now or in the future, which is what would be required for "Blu-ray quality". Of course it's possible. But HDX is 9Mbps H.264, no more. Sometimes adaptively less.

Kaleidescape is great. Kscape is basically Blu-rays ripped on your behalf. I actually don't even know if Kscape streams or if you have to download the movie to your media server first. But that's not the point. VUDU HDX is not Blu-ray quality. You said:

Originally Posted by alchav21

I don't know why you guys are in such denial, Vudu with it's Variable BitRate has the ability to Stream Blu-ray Quality Video. If you have FTTH, and are set up properly there is no reason to believe the BitRate for Blu-ray and HDX can't be the same. Vudu Servers are massive, and able to hold and Stream large HDX Files giving full Blu-ray Quality BitRate.

That is incorrect. In the future, perhaps VUDU will change the HDX specs and it will exceed 9Mbps. That day is not today. There isn't even a competitive reason to double their data/CDN costs when nobody besides a niche company contends with them.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I know you are a very knowledgeable person, but I have been Streaming Video over 25 years. I use to Back-up my DVD's, and put them on a Home Server and Stream them to my HDTV with full BitRate. So I know for a fact this is possible on a Network. My ISP has me on an Intra-Net, and has Direct Access to the Vudu Server. I'm sure you have heard of Kaleidescape, they have been doing this for many years at Blu-ray Quality BitRate. Talk to your Engineering contacts, and ask them if this is possible I'm sure they will concur.

I Retired from PacBell, AT&T now, and they pioneered Video Conferencing on Fiber T3's with full BitRate real live Video. Your assumptions are for low end Copper connections, the Future is Fiber Networks, and there are no limits here. Streaming Video is here to stay, and the possibilities are endless!

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

In a former life I designed and oversaw deployment of IP networking for over 6k employees at a Fortune 50. We used fiber then. I have FTTH now. I don't understand your point here at all. The issue is not whether streaming 20Mbps H.264 is technically possible now or in the future, which is what would be required for "Blu-ray quality". Of course it's possible. But HDX is 9Mbps H.264, no more. Sometimes adaptively less.

Kaleidescape is great. Kscape is basically Blu-rays ripped on your behalf. I actually don't even know if Kscape streams or if you have to download the movie to your media server first. But that's not the point. VUDU HDX is not Blu-ray quality. You said:

That is incorrect. In the future, perhaps VUDU will change the HDX specs and it will exceed 9Mbps. That day is not today. There isn't even a competitive reason to double their data/CDN costs when nobody besides a niche company contends with them.

Thanks, that's the point I was trying to make, with the right set up and enough Bandwidth Disc and HD Digital will be Seamless. I predict the Future here in the U.S. will be Fiber GigaBit+ Networks, with plenty of Bandwidth where HD Digital will be far superior to any Disc Media. The way Technology moves so fast, that day is Tomorrow!

[Agent_DVD]

FYI

Sony's 4K streaming service "Ultra" will stream to PC's later this year also will enable 4k Rentals.

http://variety.com/2016/digital/news...ng-1201848137/