HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sony’s S-Log3 production format)

As seen on the Sony professional monitor (2nd from the left) during Inter Bee at the very end before the clip cuts off….. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post12904607

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yes, and that’s an enviable trait (being EOTF agnostic) for it can accept any content (e.g. SDR, HDR10, HDR HLG, even Sony’s S-Log3 production format) and distribute it to any type TV

Penton, or anyone who knows,

I understand that Technicolor HDR can ingest practically anything, including both EOTF's PQ and HLG. But my question about what it spits out to the display.

Their page has this bullet point:

• it's independent of the Electro-Optical Transfer Function (EOTF). The content can be mastered in SMPTE 2084, gamma or other EOTFs.

So they just choose one EOTF to master to? What if they master in HLG and the display only has PQ? Or should I assume they'll do everything in PQ?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

I understand that Technicolor HDR can ingest practically anything, including both EOTF's PQ and HLG. But my question about what it spits out to the display.

After the content is feed in…the Technicolor HDR technology, be it physically located within the TV or in a set top box(STB) as illustrated in the flow chart diagramed by Technicolor…..can decode into whatever the particular TV likes/understands……

[Robert Zohn]

Thanks for the excellent ^^ research work. Your knowledge and education is appreciated!

Penton Man and all of the other talented and also too all of the interested and inquisitive members that make this site an invaluable resource for all to learn and enjoy.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by bruceames

A place for discussing HDR10, Dolby Vision, how they compare, info articles, why you love it or hate it, and everything HDR.

A few info articles on HDR:

What HDR Means for Color and Luminance

https://www.avforums.com/article/ult...ces-2016.12295

With HDR here in the now, Dolby Vision coming up this year; I subscribe.

* Not all UHD/HDR TVs, 4K front projectors, UHD/HDR BR players (five @ the moment), HDMI cables capable of transferring all the additional visual information (in particular with PJs), 4K Blu-ray transfers, ...none were created equal. There are as many differences as there are artists with their own brush stroke.

Sony 800 & 1000 upcoming UHD BR players, Oppo Dolby Vision capable 203 player (205 in March), all that truly matter for the eyes and ears in a world of entertainment in 2017 is detailed picture and sound from ultra hi-def and ultra hi-res material; the best...4K Blu-rays. ...Contrast, brightness, nits, lumens, sharpness, HDR10, Dolby Vision, ...all that jazz.
________

Dream on:

The day that we'll be fully immersed in picture and sound together, is getting nearer. Ultra high def 3D sound & picture, with multi-layer (rainbow) Blu-ray (1TB per disc). ...Holographic imaging @ 360°
_____

But yeah, for now in 2017, I sure subscribe, and I'm curious about who in Hollywood is going to embark in the Dolby Vision odyssey.
We have all read some news:

• http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1476785397

<♦> https://www.dolby.com/us/en/brands/dolby-vision.html
_____

HDR Vergleich: Dolby Vision vs. Ultra HD Blu-ray HDR 10 - YouTube

SONY A1 OLED TV mit Dolby Vision (CES 2017) - YouTube

Sony X930E & X940E 4K HDR with Dolby Vision | CES 2017 - YouTube

LG Wallpaper OLED TV with Dolby Vision and Atmos at CES - YouTube

LG CES 2017 Press Conference Part 2 (W7 OLED, Dolby Vision Blu-ray Player) - YouTube

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

After the content is feed in…the Technicolor HDR technology, be it physically located within the TV or in a set top box(STB) as illustrated in the flow chart diagramed by Technicolor…..can decode into whatever the particular TV likes/understands……

[Show spoiler]

Thanks Penton!

Converting the curve back to linear seems so simple. The more I read about this HDR delivery system, the more I like it.

I'm assuming that image is from the personal Penton files? Or is there an internet source you could possibly share?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Thanks for the excellent ^^ research work. Your knowledge and education is appreciated!

Penton Man and all of the other talented and also too all of the interested and inquisitive members that make this site an invaluable resource for all to learn and enjoy.

Thanks , but not really research, just remembering what Technicolor folks told me in the past. My experience has been that Disney folks are far more difficult to pull information out of….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post13052594

Yes, we have several strong contributors here….Richard and others.

[DanBa]

This is what I understand about Technicolor HDR.

I think Technicolor HDR is described in the ETSI TS 103 433 specification (i.e. SL-HDR1).
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/...33v010101p.pdf

There is no standardized display adaptation in a legacy HDR10 ecosystem.
Technicolor HDR introduces a standardized display adaptation in a HDR10 ecosystem using the SMPTE ST 2094-20 (Philips) / 2094-30 (Technicolor) dynamic metadata.

"The system typically uses HEVC Main 10 profile for the bitstream generation and decoding. It includes a pre-processing block, prior to encoding, that converts an input HDR signal into an SDR version. Metadata can be generated in this step. After encoding and decoding the SDR signal, such metadata can be used in a post-processing step to reconstruct an HDR version of the signal. The decoded SDR video can be directly rendered on an SDR display without adaptation."
[JCTVC-Y1012]
http://phenix.it-sudparis.eu/jct/index.php

Decoder in a set-top box



Decoder in a TV

"The pre-encoding conversion process converts an input linear RGB 4:4:4 signal to SDR 10-bit Y’CbCr 4:2:0 signal by applying the following successive steps:
a) a conversion from an input linear RGB 4:4:4 representation to a non-linear representation using the inverse PQ EOTF,
b) a colour format conversion from non-linear PQ R’G’B’ 4:4:4 signal to Y’CbCr 4:4:4,
c) a conversion step that converts a floating-point to a fixed-point representation (i.e. 10 bits), narrow range,
d) a chroma down-conversion component that converts data from 4:4:4 to 4:2:0, resulting in a PQ 10-bit 4:2:0 Y’CbCr signal (PQ10),
e) a dynamic range adaptation (DRA) step that applies three different transfer functions to the 4:2:0 Y’, Cb, and Cr components of the PQ10 signal to generate a 10-bit SDR 4:2:0 Y’CbCr signal.
The resulting Y’CbCr signal, having BT.709/BT.2020 transfer characteristics and BT.2020 color primaries, is then encoded, using an HEVC Main 10 compliant encoder. The DRA transfer functions can be implemented in the shape of 1D-LUTs that directly apply to the PQ10 Y, Cb and Cr components, in 4:2:0 format.

After HEVC Main 10 compliant decoding, the decoded signal has BT.709/BT.2020 transfer characteristics and BT.2020 colour primaries. The post-decoding inverse conversion processing is the inverse of the pre-encoding processing. It is made of the following steps:
a) an inverse DRA process, converting the SDR 10-bits Y’CbCr 4:2:0 signal into a PQ10 compatible signal using the inverse DRA transfer functions,
b) a chroma up-conversion that converts data from Y’CbCr 4:2:0 to Y’CbCr 4:4:4,
c) a conversion step that converts a fixed-point representation, i.e. 10 bits, to a floating-point representation,
d) a colour representation conversion from Y’CbCr 4:4:4 to R’G’B’ 4:4:4,
e) a conversion using the PQ EOTF from the input R’G’B’ 4:4:4 to linear RGB 4:4:4."

Decoder in a set-top box

Input HDR video >> Pre-processing >> SDR + dynamic metadata >> HEVC encoder >> SDR bitstream + (dynamic metadata in) SEI >> HEVC decoder > Post-processing > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDMI 2.0a >> HDR10 compliant TV

Input HDR video >> Pre-processing >> SDR + dynamic metadata >> HEVC encoder >> SDR bitstream + (dynamic metadata in) SEI >> HEVC decoder > Post-processing > HLG uncompressed video >> HDMI 2.0b >> HLG compliant TV

Input HDR video >> Pre-processing >> SDR + dynamic metadata >> HEVC encoder >> SDR bitstream + (dynamic metadata in) SEI >> HEVC decoder >> HDMI >> SDR compliant TV

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

[/SPOILER]

Thanks Penton!

Converting the curve back to linear seems so simple. The more I read about this HDR delivery system, the more I like it.

I'm assuming that image is from the personal Penton files? Or is there an internet source you could possibly share?

I captured a couple of humble personal pics from CES 2017 showing other items that I’m saving for possible future posting. Not special, just cell phone acquired.

As to the flow chart image, somebody from Technicolor sent it to me months ago along with one other and I subsequently cropped it down for more gentleness on dee eyes and still illustrate the answer to your query….I don’t know if that particular flow chart diagram ever made it onto the internet.

As to the Technicolor thing, the ability to adapt to whatever EOTF is pretty cool. Also, one of the main strengths of the solution that they’re promoting to customers is backwards compatibility. The way the production to distribution workflow typically occurs for that is that coming from the camera into be it the HDR or SDR production, a Technicolor device (left side of that above pic) creates the metadata for whichever format is not being produced….

so if it’s an SDR production, the Technicolor creates the HDR metadata and then passes it onto an encoder that encodes the signal and then embeds the metadata and then passes that down to a set top box or decoder in the TV which interprets the metadata and decides whether to take action or not depending upon the type of TV it’s connected to,

so, for example if the set top box is receiving an SDR signal with HDR metadata and it’s connected to an HDR tv, it will do a transformation on the signal and then feed it to the TV, or….if it’s receiving an SDR signal with HDR metadata and delivering to an SDR tv, it will just pass the signal on thru the television.

That pretty much exhausts my knowledge/recollection.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

This is what I understand about Technicolor HDR.

Man you do long posts! I was typing while you were posting. I'll try to read that later.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I captured a couple of humble personal pics from CES 2017 showing other items that I’m saving for possible future posting. Not special, just cell phone acquired.

^ When I stopped by the HDMI booth at CES to chat, I was informed that the new HDMI standard uses Display Stream Compression (DSC) compression Version 1.2 for resolution formats > 8K, not sure if that's in any of the online literature yet.

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yes, we have several strong contributors here….Richard and others.

And then the court jesters, such as moi.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Esox50

And then the court jesters, such as moi.

lol, you have strength too.
You keep Bill Hunt accountable.

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

lol, you have strength too.
You keep Bill Hunt accountable.

Honestly, I think that was my first "tirade" against that site. Boy, has it fallen. I used to visit it multiple times a day back in the DVD days.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Richard, just to be clear, Advanced HDR by Technicolor is ST.2094-30?

When Philips and Technicolor released SL-HDR1 last year it had references to both SMPTE ST 2094-20 and SMPTE ST 2094-30.

Originally Posted by DanBa

The multi-core Amlogic S912 SoC has only one HEVC video decoder located in the Video Engine AVE-10 core, and two logical Dolby Vision Base Layer Decoder & Dolby Vision Enhanced Layer Decoder located in the Video Output Unit core.

I am not sure how that specific SoC does the decoding (it is possible to decode two video streams on a single decoder if it is designed for it) or which Dolby Vision profile the SoC supports but if it is a Dolby Vision SoC it has to be capable of decoding two video streams.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yes, and that’s an enviable trait (being EOTF agnostic) for it can accept any content (e.g. SDR, HDR10, HDR HLG, even Sony’s S-Log3 production format) and distribute it to any type TV

So it basically converts HDR into a normal SDR video signal and than creates proprietary metadata that can stretch that SDR video signal into HDR. I am a tad skeptical of how that works but I could easily see more companies jumping in with their own proprietary metadata HDR formats.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^ When I stopped by the HDMI booth at CES to chat, I was informed that the new HDMI standard uses Display Stream Compression (DSC) compression Version 1.2 for resolution formats > 8K, not sure if that's in any of the online literature yet.

I have read several articles on HDMI 2.1 and none of them have mentioned DSC.

[batman2000]

how long until we see 12 bit tv panels?

[DJJez]

Originally Posted by batman2000

how long until we see 12 bit tv panels?

interesting questionl. no panels this year are 12 bit yet dolby vision's native is in 12 bit so if it you have a 10 bit panel, it downscales to 10 bits

[batman2000]

Originally Posted by DJJez

interesting question. no panels this year are 12 bit yet dolby vision's native is in 12 bit so if it you have a 10 bit panel, it downscales to 10 bits

this sucks i wish 12 bit panels were coming out this year too bad. is the tech for it just not here yet?

[PS3_Kiwi]

Will DV look much different on a 10bit panel. I don't want to wait until 2018 or whenever to upgrade my TV to 4K UHD DV/HDR

[DanBa]

I believe one of the success factors of the 10-bit panel-featured Sony Z9D is its 14-bit internal signal processing.

"Super Bit Mapping™ 4K HDR
The 4K HDR Processor X1™ Extreme's Super Bit Mapping™ 4K HDR creates a smoother, more natural picture by minimizing its color banding. With 14-bit powerful signal processing, it breaks up the solid bands of color of an 8-bit or 10-bit source, up-converting to 14-bit equivalent gradation, with 64 times more color levels. It delivers graceful reproduction of faces, sunsets, and other areas of subtle color gradation."
http://www.sony.com/electronics/tele...specifications


Higher bit depth is always better: less noise.


12-bit PQ encoded content is better than 10-bit PQ encoded content.
https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/op...2012-PDF-E.pdf
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...c02-Miller.pdf



At least, no GIGO (i.e. Garbage In, Garbage Out).
At the Dolby Vision TV stage level, as the color volume (i.e. color gamut + luminance) of a "free noise" 12-bit content (instead of a noisy 10-bit content) exceeds the native color volume of a TV, the TV’s Dolby Vision display adaptation has to reduce / adapt the content colors to fit the capability of the TV according to dynamic metadata instructions created at the mastering time when preserving creative artistic intent: finally less video noise with a 12-bit encoded content on a 10-bit panel-featured TV.