Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Netflix streams House of Cards and Daredevil in 4K. Your post is wrong.

And their 4K streaming looks fantastic.

It depends on what you stream on. They have admitted that they only let you stream at 720p on a lot of various computer browsers. They also lower your streaming quality if you are on Verizon or at&t. They also throttle you back depending on what your bandwidth is. Netflix does pretty heavy compression on its downloads also. So netflix does have quite a few cases where they throttle you down to 720p or lower.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Cranston37

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/new...wnership-39362
I will say this - my takeaway from that article is if you think the future is digital alone, the studios don't necessarily agree with you. As one said, they just want you to buy movies and they don't really care what format it's in. I know there's more profit if you do it digitally, but what they are thinking is there is more profit in buying in general vs. subscribing, and that's where they are focused.

Well that Article kind of sums up what I have been telling you guys. Physical Discs are now on par with Digital, and the speed Technology moves means Digital will be mainstream soon. The Studios don't care as long as you buy Movies!

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well that Article kind of sums up what I have been telling you guys. Physical Discs are now on par with Digital, and the speed Technology moves means Digital will be mainstream soon. The Studios don't care as long as you buy Movies!

The studios may consider them to be on par in that they are pushing them both equally. But the sales numbers are nowhere close to equal. Discs far outsell digital purchases, as this statement points out:

"There’s still a lot of life left in physical media and the industry needs to continue to serve this vital part of the market,” said Warner’s Ron Sanders. "And don’t forget that physical DVD and Blu-ray Disc still represent well over half of our revenues, with explosive growth in the 4K UHD segment.”

Both digital and physical are already mainstream. But your repeated statement that "digital is the future" makes it sound like it will replace physical media rather than exist along side it.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well that Article kind of sums up what I have been telling you guys. Physical Discs are now on par with Digital, and the speed Technology moves means Digital will be mainstream soon. The Studios don't care as long as you buy Movies!

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

The studios may consider them to be on par in that they are pushing them both equally. But the sales numbers are nowhere close to equal. Discs far outsell digital purchases, as this statement points out:

Both digital and physical are already mainstream. But your repeated statement that "digital is the future" makes it sound like it will replace physical media rather than exist along side it.

Well I'll take that, not replace today but tomorrow is another story. Physical will remain, but I just see it going up in price because of the added Fluff. The main complaint with Digital HD is Quality and Ownership, and it seems both of these flaws will be answered. Storage is cheap, and Servers can be put anywhere with the proper DRM. So your Collection is secure without the storage space problems.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The main complaint with Digital HD is Quality and Ownership, and it seems both of these flaws will be answered. Storage is cheap, and Servers can be put anywhere with the proper DRM. So your Collection is secure without the storage space problems.

Sure, servers can be put anywhere... but not by anyone and that's far more important. Proper DRM only comes from one source for each title.

You still haven't responded to my previous question:

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Who's hosting these servers? Only the studio who owns each movie or TV show has the legal right to offer it. If they don't want to bother with that expense because a particular movie or TV show isn't selling anymore no one else can possibly pick up the slack.

When Fox rebooted the Fantastic Four series they didn't want the previous movies to be available so they removed them. Simultaneously those two movies disappeared from iTunes, VUDU, Ultraviolet, Amazon Instant Video, and every other digital provider. In that case it was only temporary, after the reboot bombed they reinstated the previous movies. But the point still stands: absolute control over each digital movie lies with one company. If a studio doesn't want to offer one of their movies anymore then it will become completely unavailable and no one else will have the legal right to offer it.

Physical media doesn't work that way. If a studio decides they don't want to offer one of their movies anymore than a few big stores may follow the studio's wishes and return their stock, but it won't affect the hundreds of small companies and individual sellers with used copies. The studio has absolutely no control over them.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Who's hosting these servers? Only the studio who owns each movie or TV show has the legal right to offer it. If they don't want to bother with that expense because a particular movie or TV show isn't selling anymore no one else can possibly pick up the slack.

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Sure, servers can be put anywhere... but not by anyone and that's far more important. Proper DRM only comes from one source for each title.

You still haven't responded to my previous question:

When Fox rebooted the Fantastic Four series they didn't want the previous movies to be available so they removed them. Simultaneously those two movies disappeared from iTunes, VUDU, Ultraviolet, Amazon Instant Video, and every other digital provider. In that case it was only temporary, after the reboot bombed they reinstated the previous movies. But the point still stands: absolute control over each digital movie lies with one company. If a studio doesn't want to offer one of their movies anymore then it will become completely unavailable and no one else will have the legal right to offer it.

Physical media doesn't work that way. If a studio decides they don't want to offer one of their movies anymore than a few big stores may follow the studio's wishes and return their stock, but it won't affect the hundreds of small companies and individual sellers with used copies. The studio has absolutely no control over them.

Go for it Penguin keep buying your Physical Discs, I just think it will cost more than Digital. As for the Servers I'm talking about they are all Automated with Terabytes of Storage, Secured and controlled with Logic Boards. Like I said they can be co-located in an ISP or local in a Data Center. These Data Centers can be large or small, but with Direct Fiber Trunking. These Servers don't have to be manually loaded, with Fiber Paths they can be remotely accessed Programmed, and loaded with the latest releases or your Movie Collection. Movie Theaters can have the same set up too, with a Server on location and load the Movies they will show. That's why I say with the right set up and Bandwidth Streaming has no boundaries!

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Go for it Penguin keep buying your Physical Discs, I just think it will cost more than Digital. As for the Servers I'm talking about they are all Automated with Terabytes of Storage, Secured and controlled with Logic Boards. Like I said they can be co-located in an ISP or local in a Data Center. These Data Centers can be large or small, but with Direct Fiber Trunking. These Servers don't have to be manually loaded, with Fiber Paths they can be remotely accessed Programmed, and loaded with the latest releases or your Movie Collection. Movie Theaters can have the same set up too, with a Server on location and load the Movies they will show. That's why I say with the right set up and Bandwidth Streaming has no boundaries!

You're still missing my point. Every single title on every single server is available because the studio that owns it allows it to be. If a studio doesn't want one of their titles to be available, it won't be. It doesn't matter how many copies there are or how many places they are, any title can be removed in an instant.

[veritas]

The reason people worry about digital copies vanishing at one point is because digital versions of stuff have a habit of vanishing or breaking when studios stop making money or want to sell you the product again. I have video games where studios fully dropped multiplayer support and in doing it broke the client all together basically bricking the games.

When a digital company goes out of business they rarely help the customers move to a different service and they never remove their drm meaning they normally screw over their customers.

Its not so much a question of if digital will be a thing in the future as a question of if vudu iTunes etc will still be around in the future. If vudu goes out of business you lose your library and have to rebuy it on iTunes. That sounds like a win win for a studio selling films.

Anyway it comes down to the priority's of the consumer and the priority's of the studio not lining up.

Have you ever heard of the scorpion and the frog fable?

[Show spoiler]Consumers are the frogs and its inevitable that the studios will do whats in their nature.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Go for it Penguin keep buying your Physical Discs, I just think it will cost more than Digital. As for the Servers I'm talking about they are all Automated with Terabytes of Storage, Secured and controlled with Logic Boards. Like I said they can be co-located in an ISP or local in a Data Center. These Data Centers can be large or small, but with Direct Fiber Trunking. These Servers don't have to be manually loaded, with Fiber Paths they can be remotely accessed Programmed, and loaded with the latest releases or your Movie Collection. Movie Theaters can have the same set up too, with a Server on location and load the Movies they will show. That's why I say with the right set up and Bandwidth Streaming has no boundaries!

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

You're still missing my point. Every single title on every single server is available because the studio that owns it allows it to be. If a studio doesn't want one of their titles to be available, it won't be. It doesn't matter how many copies there are or how many places they are, any title can be removed in an instant.

You have to have a Point to have a Point, just something from an Animated Movie. Studios want you to have Ownership, Physical or Digital. So if it's in your Library they will not take it away. I almost have 500 Digital Movies plus TV Shows, and nothing has disappeared. I do keep track of my Movies with a catalog, but if they are acquired properly they will remain in your Library. Now the Movies you are talking about not being available, can happen with Disc or Digital if you don't already have a copy. Once you have a copy Disc or Digital it will remain yours, this is what the Studios want.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Studios want you to have Ownership, Physical or Digital. So if it's in your Library they will not take it away.

That's assuming a lot about greedy studios. The difference here is with online they CAN take it away, with physical they CANNOT take it away.

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[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Studios want you to have Ownership, Physical or Digital. So if it's in your Library they will not take it away. I almost have 500 Digital Movies plus TV Shows, and nothing has disappeared.

Yet. You can't assume that all your titles will be available for the next 50 years just because they haven't been taken away in the last 2 years. The studios aren't going to continue hosting lots of titles that haven't made them a cent in over a decade out of the goodness of their hearts. It all comes down to money: if something costs them money to provide but never makes them any money why would they continue offering it?

The studios define ownership very differently than I do. If I can't use my possessions without the studios' support I don't own them. If I can't sell or give away my possessions I don't own them.

Originally Posted by alchav21

Now the Movies you are talking about not being available, can happen with Disc or Digital if you don't already have a copy.

Not true. If a physical title goes out of print I can still buy a used copy from one of the hundreds (or sometimes thousands) of people selling one. If a digital copy is no longer offered by the studio no one else has the legal right to sell it.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by whipnet

Subscription based movie viewing like Netflix and Hulu is sub-par. They stream in no better than 720 or DVD quality. If they do stream at a higher resolution, they do it at the same bitrate.

According to my Cisco ASA, Netflix and Hulu (haven't check into others) stream at ~4000kbs while an HDX movie from VUDU streams at ~10000kbs or Blu-ray quality.

Yea like someone said this is BS

Netflix 4K Streaming is much better quality than any of the 3 (small i know) UHD discs I own so far.

I do agree Vudu HDX sometimes looks 720p ish even if it's supposed to be bluray. but it's close but discs definitely look better. I can't comment on VUDU UHD yet.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by flyry

Yea like someone said this is BS

Netflix 4K Streaming is much better quality than any of the 3 (small i know) UHD discs I own so far.

I do agree Vudu HDX sometimes looks 720p ish even if it's supposed to be bluray. but it's close but discs definitely look better. I can't comment on VUDU UHD yet.

Please provide bitrate numbers to show why this is BS. Otherwise it's just your eyes and opinion.

Thanks

[flyry]

Originally Posted by whipnet

Please provide bitrate numbers to show why this is BS. Otherwise it's just your eyes and opinion.

Thanks

If you really think 4K and/or HDR Streaming of Netflix Originals is no better than DVD quality either don't own a 4K TV or are legally blind.

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by whipnet

Please provide bitrate numbers to show why this is BS. Otherwise it's just your eyes and opinion.

Data's good. Perhaps you should've supplied some for your statement, because it's groundless: They stream in no better than 720 or DVD quality. If they do stream at a higher resolution, they do it at the same bitrate.

I don't know of any system that intentionally uses the same bitrate regardless of resolution. Higher resolutions use higher bitrates. When a connection is unsuitable, an adaptive stream will lower the bitrate but they're still trying to deliver the best quality stream when possible.

Here's Netflix's help page on their data rates. 3GB/hr for HD is about 6.7Mbps, and 7GB/hr is about 15.6Mbps. That presumably includes audio because they're talking about overall data. But I can't see how it doesn't exceed "720 or DVD" quality.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

Data's good. Perhaps you should've supplied some for your statement, because it's groundless: They stream in no better than 720 or DVD quality. If they do stream at a higher resolution, they do it at the same bitrate.

I don't know of any system that intentionally uses the same bitrate regardless of resolution. Higher resolutions use higher bitrates. When a connection is unsuitable, an adaptive stream will lower the bitrate but they're still trying to deliver the best quality stream when possible.

Here's Netflix's help page on their data rates. 3GB/hr for HD is about 6.7Mbps, and 7GB/hr is about 15.6Mbps. That presumably includes audio because they're talking about overall data. But I can't see how it doesn't exceed "720 or DVD" quality.

I was only comparing Netflix and Hulu HD vs VUDU HD. I am not sure how this got so far off track.

Here is what I posted earlier.

"According to my Cisco ASA, Netflix and Hulu (haven't checked into others) stream at ~4000kbs while an HDX movie from VUDU streams at ~10000kbs or Blu-ray quality."

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by whipnet

I was only comparing Netflix and Hulu HD vs VUDU HD. I am not sure how this got so far off track.

Here is what I posted earlier.

"According to my Cisco ASA, Netflix and Hulu (haven't checked into others) stream at ~4000kbs while an HDX movie from VUDU streams at ~10000kbs or Blu-ray quality."

Fair enough then. The discussion is muddled but I don't think the numbers support your position about 720p/SD. Netflix HD seems to exceed 720p/SD at every provider. Hulu's 1080p exceeds VUDU's 720p as well. VUDU's 1080p HD has always set the bar - that's why they added the X, so you know it's extra bandwidth! Netflix presumably owns the source material for their Originals and all things being equal can probably get a better perceived quality at a slightly lower bitrate since they control the process through encode and delivery. Certainly their UHD meets or exceeds other providers.

Hulu*
SD = 1.5Mbps
720p = 3Mbps
1080p = 6Mbps
UHD = 13Mbps

Netflix
SD = 1.5Mbps
HD** = 6.7Mbps
UHD = 15.6Mbps

VUDU (the source is Jake from VUDU but I can't find the post)
720p = 4.5Mbps
1080p = 9Mbps
UHD = 15Mbps

iTunes (again, source lost to time)
SD = 1.5Mbps
720p = 4Mbps
1080p = 5Mbps

* Hulu specs are minimum requirements only
** 720p/1080p isn't broken out

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

Fair enough then. The discussion is muddled but I don't think the numbers support your position about 720p/SD. Netflix HD seems to exceed 720p/SD at every provider. Hulu's 1080p exceeds VUDU's 720p as well. VUDU's 1080p HD has always set the bar - that's why they added the X, so you know it's extra bandwidth! Netflix presumably owns the source material for their Originals and all things being equal can probably get a better perceived quality at a slightly lower bitrate since they control the process through encode and delivery. Certainly their UHD meets or exceeds other providers.

Hulu*
SD = 1.5Mbps
720p = 3Mbps
1080p = 6Mbps
UHD = 13Mbps

Netflix
SD = 1.5Mbps
HD** = 6.7Mbps
UHD = 15.6Mbps

VUDU (the source is Jake from VUDU but I can't find the post)
720p = 4.5Mbps
1080p = 9Mbps
UHD = 15Mbps

iTunes (again, source lost to time)
SD = 1.5Mbps
720p = 4Mbps
1080p = 5Mbps

* Hulu specs are minimum requirements only
** 720p/1080p isn't broken out

Thank you, this is where I was going with this and trying to show that VUDU HD is better than HULU or Netflix HD. I only said Netflix HD is closer to DVD quality because I see between 3.5 and 4.5 watching an HD movie, not the 6.7 listed here... never. Some VUDU HD comes in as high as 12.5.

*

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by whipnet

Thank you, this is where I was going with this and trying to show that VUDU HD is better than HULU or Netflix HD. I only said Netflix HD is closer to DVD quality because I see between 3.5 and 4.5 watching an HD movie, not the 6.7 listed here... never. Some VUDU HD comes in as high as 12.5.

*

Your lower Netflix bandwidth could be an ISP issue. IIRC Netflix does not have the same relationships with all ISPs and a subset don't get the better bitrates. Also, you might be seeing bursts from VUDU but they've said the bitrate for HDX is 9Mbps on multiple occasions.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

Your lower Netflix bandwidth could be an ISP issue. IIRC Netflix does not have the same relationships with all ISPs and a subset don't get the better bitrates. Also, you might be seeing bursts from VUDU but they've said the bitrate for HDX is 9Mbps on multiple occasions.

It's Comcast so I won't argue that. I have 150mb down at home and 10gb down at work and see about the same either place, but I won't put anything past Comcast Business or Home.

I see VUDU burst up at 30 when a movie starts or you rewind or FF, looking at average across an hour. And 9.5 is about average for VUDU HDX

Your info is great. I'll have to start checking the others when I have time.

*