Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Groot]

I use a Mac for design and programming. Saying it's good for just easy stuff is really not an accurate assessment of Apple's products. I keep a PC to run my CNC (wood) because I don't want to pay a high figure for something that may get dust in it/fail because of it and I can honestly say I detest using Windows at this point. After almost a decade with Apple products as my main devices I cannot see leaving them unless the quality severely declines. It literally is like the old tag line "it just works".

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yes but what I am saying is, what about the non UV Digital HD storefronts? ITunes, Amazon, GooglecPlsy etc.. could they be ostracised by pushing exclusive content to UV only Digital HD?

I don't see that happening. The non-UV stores (particularly iTunes and Amazon) have a far bigger marketshare in the electronic sell-through market than all the UV stores combined. UV only survives because of digital copy codes from physical discs, but that doesn't generate profits for the studios.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

A disaster, you say. No hyperbole there. No doubt UV hasn't flourished the way the studios would have preferred, but it did its primary job by not forfeiting their entire digital distribution to iTunes. UV's international presence is farcical, though. That is a disaster.


If you find digital-only alternate cuts tasteless, that's on you. Nobody can keep you from being personally offended. But there's a business case for it as I laid out above and not just crass marketing.


Music has been shifting to subscription and away from ownership. No reason filmed entertainment shouldn't move the same way. I don't think the studios care whether you own it, rent it, or subscribe to it. Why should they?



I look forward to the discussions in this thread in five years where you can tell me "I told you so". You know, when they're mostly making studio-exclusive choose-your-own-adventure movies made for phones and watches. At twice the price too, apparently.

Somehow, despite every indication that there's no elasticity in the annual home entertainment spend, you think they'll be able to charge much more per movie despite their costs being dramatically reduced. It's nonsense.

Video games aren't a good analog. It's a different market with different costs and different drivers. We haven't even started to see a video game subscription service yet. I will say that I have hundreds of Steam games and paid a pittance for most of them.

So you are saying UV isn't a disaster because it has broke up Apple dominance? Isn't that a disaster in itself? A labyrinth of second rate storefronts and incredibly poor implementation.

As for 'why should the studios care' about how our content is distributed. Well, profit for a start. People are conditioned not to pay over the odds for a service now. (For the record, I think we are heading towards subscription)

Finally, the point I was making about digital distribution is that films aren't going to be cheaper just because they don't have to package and distribute content. They will use shorter release times as an excuse to boost prices.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

I don't see that happening. The non-UV stores (particularly iTunes and Amazon) have a far bigger marketshare in the electronic sell-through market than all the UV stores combined. UV only survives because of digital copy codes from physical discs, but that doesn't generate profits for the studios.

Do you have the figures for Amazon market share?

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

So you are saying UV isn't a disaster because it has broke up Apple dominance? Isn't that a disaster in itself? A labyrinth of second rate storefronts and incredibly poor implementation.

There are a ton of people here who love VUDU and prefer it over iTunes. I've even see people say they preferred Google Play. What you see as second-rate storefronts is choice for others. And we should welcome that because that's why VUDU has better quality streams than iTunes. Competition is always a win for consumers.

As for 'why should the studios care' about how our content is distributed. Well, profit for a start. People are conditioned not to pay over the odds for a service now. (For the record, I think we are heading towards subscription)

The studios won't care even if it is subscription. They might even prefer it, because then they only have to negotiate with a few parties. And they can negotiate the stinkers in with the successes, which they can't do when they sell individual titles. They only care that they keep getting their share of dollars, not which titles those dollars specifically came from.

Finally, the point I was making about digital distribution is that films aren't going to be cheaper just because they don't have to package and distribute content. They will use shorter release times as an excuse to boost prices.

Those are two different things. Films are going to be cheaper. Shorter release times might come with higher prices. So what? You're getting shorter release times, which you don't have today at any price. Me, I have no problem waiting for a better price. More choice for all. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet and don't buy it.

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Do you have the figures for Amazon market share?

I don't think there have been many public numbers in the past couple of years but the last time there were, iTunes had more than 50% market share and VUDU had about 5%. I think that was the point. Non-UV EST crushes UV.

Here are some numbers from 2013. Probably not the most recent but enough for this discussion.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

There are a ton of people here who love VUDU and prefer it over iTunes. I've even see people say they preferred Google Play. What you see as second-rate storefronts is choice for others. And we should welcome that because that's why VUDU has better quality streams than iTunes. Competition is always a win for consumers.


The studios won't care even if it is subscription. They might even prefer it, because then they only have to negotiate with a few parties. And they can negotiate the stinkers in with the successes, which they can't do when they sell individual titles. They only care that they keep getting their share of dollars, not which titles those dollars specifically came from.


Those are two different things. Films are going to be cheaper. Shorter release times might come with higher prices. So what? You're getting shorter release times, which you don't have today at any price. Me, I have no problem waiting for a better price. More choice for all. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet and don't buy it.

Vudu better than ITunes? That's very very subjective. ITunes doesn't degrade if a connection problem occurs. Nor does it stutter or suffer audio glitches.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

I don't think there have been many public numbers in the past couple of years but the last time there were, iTunes had more than 50% market share and VUDU had about 5%. I think that was the point. Non-UV EST crushes UV.

Here are some numbers from 2013. Probably not the most recent but enough for this discussion.

I have seen figures since then. No way ITunes is still that dominant.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Vudu better than ITunes? That's very very subjective. ITunes doesn't degrade if a connection problem occurs. Nor does it stutter or suffer audio glitches.

I've never had Vudu stutter or have audio glitches. Unlike iTunes, Vudu works on all gaming systems and casting. There's no need to buy multiple Apple TVs to watch your iTunes movies.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Groot

I've never had Vudu stutter or have audio glitches. Unlike iTunes, Vudu works on all gaming systems and casting. There's no need to buy multiple Apple TVs to watch your iTunes movies.

It's a very common complaint, that's why I brought it up. Just search the forums.

As for Apple, I would much rather have a guaranteed solid picture rather than even the possibility of quality drops. That would just take me out of the experience and is a huge Problem on a projector. However ITunes is for rentals. As you may know, I am devoted to bluray and very soon 4K bluray , the ultimate quality yardstick.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

Closed-source Microsoft never dominated anything either. And what's that thing they call Darwin?


From the Apple II to FireWire to the iPhone to Swift, poor Apple has never figured out how to invent anything.

OK, open system

Apple II was not the first PC.
Firewire? What? Was useful for about 2 years (for Apple) in the 1990's.
iPhone not the first PDA by a LONG shot.
Swift? What? Some C based language for Apple products?

You'll need to try harder.

*

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

It's a very common complaint, that's why I brought it up. Just search the forums.

As for Apple, I would much rather have a guaranteed solid picture rather than even the possibility of quality drops. That would just take me out of the experience and is a huge Problem on a projector. However ITunes is for rentals. As you may know, I am devoted to bluray and very soon 4K bluray , the ultimate quality yardstick.

Guess it just depends on the connection. I've streamed Vudu, Amazon, Netflix, NBA App, Live TV, etc to my projector and haven't had any kind of issues doing so. I've even ran a 50 foot HDMI from my above-ground basement connection to my second story deck to watch my outdoor projector and didn't experience a downgrade in quality using my wifi and extender. I've since converted my tv box wifi so I don't have to run the cord for anything but my outdoor used PS4.

I've had iTunes movies, but the lack of function outside Apple products for TVs is an issue. I could send them to my tv using my macbook, but that's an inconvenience. I have multiple tvs in the home and would have to buy Apple TV boxes to do something that either the built in tv apps, gaming systems, chromecasts, etc will already let me do. If iTunes had an app that was available on other platforms I'd stick with Apple like I have for music. Since that seems like it will never happen I've just went with Vudu.

[BlakkMajik3000]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

Video games aren't a good analog. It's a different market with different costs and different drivers. We haven't even started to see a video game subscription service yet. I will say that I have hundreds of Steam games and paid a pittance for most of them.

Playstation Now & Nvidia Grid would like a word with you.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Groot

Guess it just depends on the connection. I've streamed Vudu, Amazon, Netflix, NBA App, Live TV, etc to my projector and haven't had any kind of issues doing so. I've even ran a 50 foot HDMI from my above-ground basement connection to my second story deck to watch my outdoor projector and didn't experience a downgrade in quality using my wifi and extender. I've since converted my tv box wifi so I don't have to run the cord for anything but my outdoor used PS4.

I've had iTunes movies, but the lack of function outside Apple products for TVs is an issue. I could send them to my tv using my macbook, but that's an inconvenience. I have multiple tvs in the home and would have to buy Apple TV boxes to do something that either the built in tv apps, gaming systems, chromecasts, etc will already let me do. If iTunes had an app that was available on other platforms I'd stick with Apple like I have for music. Since that seems like it will never happen I've just went with Vudu.

Well if Armageddon does happen and 4K/regular Bluray dies in the next several years, I won't have the option of Vudu. If I want to watch content on my tv or projector it would be ITunes/Sky/Amazon. Like I have said, UV is almost dead here. Most people don't even know what it is.
As for Apple TV I am already invested in the ecosystem, it's a no brainier for me. I won't be collecting anymore at that point, just renting. With AirPlay, home sharing and regular streaming directly from the box, I would still have plenty of options. With Netflix, Amazon, BBC and Sky all available as apps with the Apple RV, I would be well covered for access to other films and tv.

I just hope that day never comes. Bluray and 4K Bluray all the way for me.

As for connections, yeah it depends on each individual case and I think we always see the problems on forums rather than the positives but even so, the problems do exist. As someone who cherishes movie night, no way would I run the risk of having my film drop in quality or suffer a drop out. That's a huge deal breaker for me.

[SarahS]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Well if Armageddon does happen and 4K/regular Bluray dies in the next several years, I won't have the option of Vudu. If I want to watch content on my tv or projector it would be ITunes/Sky/Amazon. Like I have said, UV is almost dead here. Most people don't even know what it is.
As for Apple TV I am already invested in the ecosystem, it's a no brainier for me. I won't be collecting anymore at that point, just renting. With AirPlay, home sharing and regular streaming directly from the box, I would still have plenty of options. With Netflix, Amazon, BBC and Sky all available as apps with the Apple RV, I would be well covered for access to other films and tv.

I just hope that day never comes. Bluray and 4K Bluray all the way for me.

As for connections, yeah it depends on each individual case and I think we always see the problems on forums rather than the positives but even so, the problems do exist. As someone who cherishes movie night, no way would I run the risk of having my film drop in quality or suffer a drop out. That's a huge deal breaker for me.

You are in the UK. Who Cares! It's the US that pretty much drives the market mate and we are booming at almost 40 million Vudu subscriptions! Also don't look for 4K or any higher resolution physical media to ever hit very many catalog titles...it just wont! They could never get around to releasing all the catalog titles from DVD over to BD. I was talking to several people at Movie Trading Company and Half Price Books and they are offering nothing for used BD's anymore because they cant even move them. They have people unloaded boxes of them just to get rid of the things. I doubt physical "video" media will ever have the craze of Vinyl which I do buy and adore.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by SarahS

You are in the UK. Who Cares! It's the US that pretty much drives the market mate and we are booming at almost 40 million Vudu subscriptions! Also don't look for 4K or any higher resolution physical media to ever hit very many catalog titles...it just wont! They could never get around to releasing all the catalog titles from DVD over to BD. I was talking to several people at Movie Trading Company and Half Price Books and they are offering nothing for used BD's anymore because they cant even move them. They have people unloaded boxes of them just to get rid of the things. I doubt physical "video" media will ever have the craze of Vinyl which I do buy and adore.

can you supply confirmation of that near 40 million customers please?

By the way, there are forum members from many different countries. Your attitude stinks. Are you saying U.K, Australia, Germany, Spain etc.. don't matter?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by SarahS

You are in the UK. Who Cares! It's the US that pretty much drives the market mate and we are booming at almost 40 million Vudu subscriptions! Also don't look for 4K or any higher resolution physical media to ever hit very many catalog titles...it just wont! They could never get around to releasing all the catalog titles from DVD over to BD. I was talking to several people at Movie Trading Company and Half Price Books and they are offering nothing for used BD's anymore because they cant even move them. They have people unloaded boxes of them just to get rid of the things. I doubt physical "video" media will ever have the craze of Vinyl which I do buy and adore.

How can it drive the market? It's only available in the U.S. It doesn't have any space for growth. Netflix, yeah they drive the market. Vudu? Not so much.

By the way, I subscribe to several A/V magazines and they all describe Vudu as a 'niche American only service' '

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I have seen figures since then. No way ITunes is still that dominant.

The market is dominated by non-UV participants and I believe that was the point. As iTunes's share dropped in past years it wasn't replaced by UV retailers. That I do remember from the most recent numbers. You can dig around this forum to find them if you like.

Originally Posted by whipnet

OK, open system

Apple II was not the first PC.
Firewire? What? Was useful for about 2 years (for Apple) in the 1990's.
iPhone not the first PDA by a LONG shot.
Swift? What? Some C based language for Apple products?

You'll need to try harder.

The game is easy when you can shift the goalposts whenever you want. Either Apple invents things or nobody does. You can be personally biased against Apple all you want but you can't choose facts. And I'm not sure what 'open system' is supposed to mean. Is the PC 'open' because anyone can develop for it? That's true for the Mac and iOS as well.

Originally Posted by BlakkMajik3000

Playstation Now & Nvidia Grid would like a word with you.

Isn't NVIDIA GRID a cloud solution as opposed to a game subscription? And PS Now only supports last-generation gaming. More of an exclusive retro service. But things like FilmStruck exist for movies and that's exclusively retro so fair enough.

Regardless, as mentioned above there are a couple of bone fide game subscription services which are more like traditional subscription video. EA Access, which I forgot about (and the newer Origin Access) as well as the brand spanking new Xbox Game Pass which I had not heard of.

But their existence doesn't make video games much better of an analog to the movie industry. For example, check out the U.S. video game market.



Those numbers don't agree with ESA's press release so it's hard to know which things are being included in each data set. Then throw in articles like this... very hard to consider video games an analog to movies. Is it growing? Shrinking? Barely budging? It depends, apparently.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

The market is dominated by non-UV participants and I believe that was the point. As iTunes's share dropped in past years it wasn't replaced by UV retailers. That I do remember from the most recent numbers. You can dig around this forum to find them if you like.



The game is easy when you can shift the goalposts whenever you want. Either Apple invents things or nobody does. You can be personally biased against Apple all you want but you can't choose facts. And I'm not sure what 'open system' is supposed to mean. Is the PC 'open' because anyone can develop for it? That's true for the Mac and iOS as well.



Isn't NVIDIA GRID a cloud solution as opposed to a game subscription? And PS Now only supports last-generation gaming. More of an exclusive retro service. But things like FilmStruck exist for movies and that's exclusively retro so fair enough.

Regardless, as mentioned above there are a couple of bone fide game subscription services which are more like traditional subscription video. EA Access, which I forgot about (and the newer Origin Access) as well as the brand spanking new Xbox Game Pass which I had not heard of.

But their existence doesn't make video games much better of an analog to the movie industry. For example, check out the U.S. video game market.



Those numbers don't agree with ESA's press release so it's hard to know which things are being included in each data set. Then throw in articles like this... very hard to consider video games an analog to movies. Is it growing? Shrinking? Barely budging? It depends, apparently.

No, I will take your word for it. So, my guess would be ITunes, Amazon then Google Play.

[BlakkMajik3000]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

Isn't NVIDIA GRID a cloud solution as opposed to a game subscription? And PS Now only supports last-generation gaming. More of an exclusive retro service. But things like FilmStruck exist for movies and that's exclusively retro so fair enough.

Regardless, as mentioned above there are a couple of bone fide game subscription services which are more like traditional subscription video. EA Access, which I forgot about (and the newer Origin Access) as well as the brand spanking new Xbox Game Pass which I had not heard of.

Looks like Grid is the name for the technology, but Geforce Now is the name of the actual streaming service.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/games/geforce-now/

I tried it on my Nvidia Shield portable a while back when they first started offering it, and I remember it being an ok experience.

Also, a few years ago there was something similar tried by a company called OnLive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnLive
Unfortunately, they went under. Looks like Sony bought off some of the pieces, probably to use for what has become Playstation Now.