HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

While I am a fan of Red, I consider myself down to earth and know its strengths and weaknesses. I still remember the day that Claudio Miranda posted on Reduser and got ran off by some overzealous folks. I thought that was a depressing moment. Kind of reminded me of AVS forum and Don getting run off back in the day by some overzealous HD DVD folks.

For Claudio, click on the hyperlink of the 2nd paragraph of my Signature.

As for Don, not to worry, he’s a survivor and man of many talents, e.g. at Laguna Seca raceway….

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Thank you for sharing, had not seen that video. Nice to see David in the video.

He doesn't seem to age at all.
Makes me a little jealous.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

I have watched the same movie in 4K HDR and in 3D. I find that 3D (if done correctly) can do more to immerse you in the movie than 4K HDR.

Before heading out, a note to 3D aficionado PaulGo –
with the help of the mind of Tony Davis,”For further testing, a 60 fps 3D version is now in postproduction”

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...ntinue-1024398

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As for Don, not to worry, he’s a survivor and man of many talents, e.g. at Laguna Seca raceway….

I see Don at least three times a year now (HPA, NAB and SMPTE). Hope to show the working group he and Bill are chairing some of the stuff that will be on the next disc and discuss the idea behind the various versions of the montage. I am really excited about the H.U.D. version in particular. I know we will get lots of support emails asking how to use it.

Sony would not have loaned us Blu-print if it were not for Don's recommendation. I had never even met Don at that time. We ended up moving from Giant to GDMX and returned the Blu-print dongle. GDMX used their Blu-print at our request. Either way, Don is very professional and did not deserve to be treated the way he was. Something only a few know. I was once asked by my bosses-boss to be less neutral with my posts. I was unhappy to say the least. I think I had stopped posting on AVS for a while after that email.

Any idea what current prices are for UHD66 and UHD100? I am waiting for an estimate now on dual UHD100 w/ 15mm case.

[Penton-Man]

Regarding the traditional theater deliverable, follow-up to the feature noted in a past sensor discussion from early July …..

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

....talkin even a larger cine sensor camera, let’s take a moment to mention an upcoming feature film with a 4K DI and HDR (DV) grade….

THE DARK TOWER - Official Trailer (HD) - YouTube

DCP spec….
http://digitalcinema.bydeluxe.com/si...est_Letter.pdf

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Food for thought.

waaay on the other end of the acquisition scale…. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5109784/...ef_=tt_dt_spec

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm fully aware of 10-bit still being a thing in post:

if one were to scan at 16-bit, some rough math –
2K 16bit scan of 16mm film = 24.6MB/frame
4K 16bit scan of 16mm film ~ 100MB/frame

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

I see Don at least three times a year now (HPA, NAB and SMPTE).

He gets around in audiences internationally, too -
https://tv.theiet.org/EmbedPlayer.html?id=6846#t=24:42

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Something only a few know. I was once asked by my bosses-boss to be less neutral with my posts....

I’d also heard that you ticked off one of them back in the day by getting a Playstation 3 for yourself.

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Any idea what current prices are for UHD66 and UHD100? I am waiting for an estimate now on dual UHD100 w/ 15mm case.

Sorry, can’t say.

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

waaay on the other end of the acquisition scale…. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5109784/...ef_=tt_dt_spec

if one were to scan at 16-bit, some rough math –
2K 16bit scan of 16mm film = 24.6MB/frame
4K 16bit scan of 16mm film ~ 100MB/frame

Penton, are you confirming Mother has a 4k scan/DI? Or are you just going by IMDb? I haven't seen any other info for that. Because 4k does seem like overkill for 16mm. Plus, you're posting it in the HDR thread. Do you know if it's getting an HDR grade?

[Geoff D]

Aronofsky's shooting on 16 again? Nice. I was stunned by how good The Wrestler looked, I mean it looked pretty rough for 35mm but that I assumed it was 35mm shows how far 16mm + a digital finish can go, instead of ye olden days where you'd shoot on 16 then have to blow it up to 35 then have to go through the remaining printing steps to reach a print. Now it just goes straight into the computer and out again the other side as data, this is also why 2-perf Techniscope has had something of a revival in recent years (David O. Russell, Steve McQueen etc).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Penton, are you confirming Mother has a 4k scan/DI? Or are you just going by IMDb? I haven't seen any other info for that. Because 4k does seem like overkill for 16mm. Plus, you're posting it in the HDR thread. Do you know if it's getting an HDR grade?

Honestly, I knew zip about this film until my oldest niece, who follows Jen, emailed me this tweet days ago….https://mobile.twitter.com/JenLawFil...78515915407360
after she read my more academic post about pupils a few pages back.

Just going by imdb, which for the record, we all know has had some examples of inaccuracies with regards to tech specs in the past. To confirm, for those socially connected, you could tweet Darren https://twitter.com/DarrenAronofsky whose been quite active in promoting his film recently and if he doesn’t know the scanning specifics I’m certain he could always pass the question onto Matty for a definitive answer.

As for posting in the HDR thread...just a continuum in thought/discussion about bit depth, math and post house practices.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Steve McQueen etc.

Can’t resist -

Le Mans (1971) Steve McQueen: Racing is Life. - YouTube

Geoff, are you attending that flat panel U.K. shootout coming up, or is that too far away from you too, given your southern location?

[mrtickleuk]

Vincent's made a trailer for it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Kk...ature=youtu.be

I'd imagine that all the places will be snapped up sharpish now.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Can’t resist -

Le Mans (1971) Steve McQueen: Racing is Life. - YouTube

Geoff, are you attending that flat panel U.K. shootout coming up, or is that too far away from you too, given your southern location?

No, it's too much bother just to see OLED win. Not that I mind OLED winning but I've already dropped a ton on going into London to see Dunkirk at the BFI IMAX, I can't justify doing it again so soon for a forgone conclusion (and Uxbridge may well be classed as 'London' but it's so far from the main conurbations of Londinium it takes the piss).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Vincent's made a trailer for it!....

Pretty spiffy teaser video.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

No, it's too much bother just to see OLED win. Not that I mind OLED winning but I've already dropped a ton on going into London to see Dunkirk at the BFI IMAX, I can't justify doing it again so soon for a forgone conclusion (and Uxbridge may well be classed as 'London' but it's so far from the main conurbations of Londinium it takes the piss).

Well, maybe next year. I don’t see these shootouts ending anytime soon.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

the H.U.D.

Exciting for Don’s and my personal applications -

We are Everysight - www.everysight.com - YouTube

or, as viewed (and heard) from the saddle of a motorbike, after gearing up…

https://vimeo.com/223851034

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sorry, can’t say.

I completely understand and we just received the numbers, so we are good to go. Not sure we can actually hit the $29.97 price point between cost of authoring, encoding and bill of materials though. This is the problem when you want to be on the bleeding edge. The sad part is that we don't even include the value / cost of creating the content. After I get the bill from Light Iron, I may want to include it! LOL

We are thinking about offering the following audio layouts for calibratoin:

5.1.0
5.1.2
5.1.4
5.1.6
7.1.0
7.1.2
7.1.4
7.1.6
9.1.2
9.1.4
9.1.6

From the disc UI, we will expose as two radio buttons:
-Main Channels
5
7
9

-Height Channels
0
2
4
6

That would make it less cluttered than 11 options. Not sure if it is worth supporting 6 height channels for calibration. We would like to offer this in both Atmos and DTS:X.

On an entirely different subject, I just watched the doc Electric Boogaloo, about Cannon Films. OMG! What a hoot!

Here is an example of our implementation of SSIM down scaling that I said I would post.

1. Take a look at the QUHD vs. QUHD_Decon. I had not noticed this before, but the decon seems to remove some of the chroma moire in the sweep and bursts. Look at the far right of the sweep. Decon is not about sharpening, just recovering lost detail.

2. You can compare all three stages of the scaling. The core kernel, kernel w/ SSIM and kernel w/ SSIM + anti-ringing. (AR) Still need to do tuning of the SSIM as well as the AR. Normally we would just output the kernel w/ SSIM + AR. I included all three here so you can pixel peep and see what changed. e.g. If you look at the black and gray registration markers, you will see that the SSIM version has ringing in the black that is removed by the AR.

This is the DP Review test chart wall. We shot it at 7680x4320p23.98, 5:1 compression, Zeiss Otus 85mm. I added the Peacock feather to the upper left and lower right of their test chart wall.

02_TIFF_1886_QUHD.tif is the source frame for everything else in the zip. The UHD versions were scaled from this, not the decon version.

The blown out foreheads of the people are blown out in the pics themselves.

White balance was done using the xrite chart, graybox, bottom row, 4th from the left.

I actually shot this chart from 8K HD - 3K HD in 1K increments, problem is the floor is uneven. I did my best to try and match framing, but they really need a dolly track that is level and properly shimmed.

I have given them my wishlist for a next generation test chart wall, which would include rear lit elements. I really want them to get a monochromator for proper spectral sensitivity measurements.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

I completely understand and we just received the numbers, so we are good to go. Not sure we can actually hit the $29.97 price point between cost of authoring, encoding and bill of materials though. This is the problem when you want to be on the bleeding edge. The sad part is that we don't even include the value / cost of creating the content. After I get the bill from Light Iron, I may want to include it! LOL

We are thinking about offering the following audio layouts for calibratoin:

5.1.0
5.1.2
5.1.4
5.1.6
7.1.0
7.1.2
7.1.4
7.1.6
9.1.2
9.1.4
9.1.6

From the disc UI, we will expose as two radio buttons:
-Main Channels
5
7
9

-Height Channels
0
2
4
6

That would make it less cluttered than 11 options. Not sure if it is worth supporting 6 height channels for calibration. We would like to offer this in both Atmos and DTS:X.

On an entirely different subject, I just watched the doc Electric Boogaloo, about Cannon Films. OMG! What a hoot!

Here is an example of our implementation of SSIM down scaling that I said I would post.

1. Take a look at the QUHD vs. QUHD_Decon. I had not noticed this before, but the decon seems to remove some of the chroma moire in the sweep and bursts. Look at the far right of the sweep. Decon is not about sharpening, just recovering lost detail.

2. You can compare all three stages of the scaling. The core kernel, kernel w/ SSIM and kernel w/ SSIM + anti-ringing. (AR) Still need to do tuning of the SSIM as well as the AR. Normally we would just output the kernel w/ SSIM + AR. I included all three here so you can pixel peep and see what changed. e.g. If you look at the black and gray registration markers, you will see that the SSIM version has ringing in the black that is removed by the AR.

This is the DP Review test chart wall. We shot it at 7680x4320p23.98, 5:1 compression, Zeiss Otus 85mm. I added the Peacock feather to the upper left and lower right of their test chart wall.

02_TIFF_1886_QUHD.tif is the source frame for everything else in the zip. The UHD versions were scaled from this, not the decon version.

The blown out foreheads of the people are blown out in the pics themselves.

White balance was done using the xrite chart, graybox, bottom row, 4th from the left.

I actually shot this chart from 8K HD - 3K HD in 1K increments, problem is the floor is uneven. I did my best to try and match framing, but they really need a dolly track that is level and properly shimmed.

I have given them my wishlist for a next generation test chart wall, which would include rear lit elements. I really want them to get a monochromator for proper spectral sensitivity measurements.

Great list of features so far, Stacey!

As a Dolby Atmos home theater owner and a wannabe Trinnov Altitude upgrader (some day!), I would suggest a few more speaker calibration layout modes beyond 9.1.6. in order to allow for side and rear wall arrays... and perhaps even one that includes the five behind-the-screen speaker layout option.

I don't know what you can do with DTS: X as its home version seems to be stuck at no more than 7.1.4 for the foreseeable future (one insider went so far as to mention DTS only recommends using Neural: X upmixing to go beyond 7.1.4 in upscale processors).

Thanks!

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Great list of features so far, Stacey!

As a Dolby Atmos home theater owner and a wannabe Trinnov Altitude upgrader (some day!), I would suggest a few more speaker calibration layout modes beyond 9.1.6. in order to allow for side and rear wall arrays... and perhaps even one that includes the five behind-the-screen speaker layout option.

I don't know what you can do with DTS: X as its home version seems to be stuck at no more than 7.1.4 for the foreseeable future (one insider went so far as to mention DTS only recommends using Neural: X upmixing to go beyond 7.1.4 in upscale processors).

Thanks!

Thank you for the feedback.

If the DTS encoder supports the modes, we will add just to have feature parity between the two. If we run out of disc space, then we know what we can cut first. At the same time, if DTS says we should not do them, then we may cut as well. We will need to work with DTS to get the content created.

Which additional layouts would you recommend?

One of the unknowns is direct channel mapping. Can we force pink noise into each channel in these layouts is one of questions we need to answer. Our understanding is that the Atmos cinema encoder supports sending sounds to a single speaker using the speaker snap option. (5.6.6 of Dolby's Atmos Authoring manual.)

The audio calibration, at this point, will be on the SDR disc along with the animated tutorials. Lip sync is the one audio feature supported on both discs. We will be supporting the Sync-One2 device.

I wish someone would make a UHD case that did not say 4K on it. We are considering a DigiPak. 12-18 months later we would like to do DigiPak with the 1st, 2nd and UHD editions on it plus a new disc with 59.94 versions of the montage (We shot content at both frame rates), an HLG disc and a USB stick with all of the patterns on it. The USB would include ICtCp Dolby Vision content.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Thank you for the feedback.

If the DTS encoder supports the modes, we will add just to have feature parity between the two. If we run out of disc space, then we know what we can cut first. At the same time, if DTS says we should not do them, then we may cut as well. We will need to work with DTS to get the content created.

Which additional layouts would you recommend?

One of the unknowns is direct channel mapping. Can we force pink noise into each channel in these configs is one of bits we need to figure out. Our understanding is that the Atmos encoder supports sending sounds to a single speaker using the "speaker snap" option. (5.6.6 of Dolby's Atmos Authoring manual.) This is a cinema manual, not sure if it is the same for home Atoms. We are hoping this will allow us to put pink noise in each specific height channels, one at a time, for calibration.



The cinema manual talks about a snap feature, which should support this.

The audio calibration, at this point, will be on the SDR disc. Lip sync is the one audio bit that will go on both. We will be supporting the Sync-One2 device.

Snap-to-Speaker should work similarly on both cinema and home versions of Atmos. It's mainly about how many "discrete" objects can be used at one time before spatial compression kicks in, which makes the speaker locations more like spatial "zones" rather than per-speaker assignments (a 3D placement precision "penalty" so to speak on the home version where the cinema object count is greater than the maximum allowed in the home mix). There is a discrete object default amount for home usage that can be bumped up. If it's just test tones, etc. then you shouldn't have a problem as I would assume it would be only one object at a time.

As to Atmos speaker layouts, I believe it boils down to keeping the base layer surround and overhead speaker arrays in some kind of parity for the best 3D imaging (as is shown in the Atmos cinema whitepapers).

However, the person I would recommend PM'ing is FilmMixer over on AVS Forum since he is both a film and home video soundtrack engineer/mixer and is very knowledgeable about both immersive formats.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

If it's just test tones, etc. then you shouldn't have a problem as I would assume it would be only one object at a time.

That is exactly it.

One channel will have pink noise and the rest will have silence. Then this will be its own audio / video clip that is one-minute in duration and loops (by the player) until the user returns to the menu or goes to the previous or next speaker in the layout. When it does that, a whole new clip (audio and video) is played.

This is how the current disc works. Left arrow goes to previous speaker, right arrow to next speaker and enter / menu returns to the disc menu. This way you never have to move your hands on the remote and you can easily find the arrow pad and enter button in the dark.

Has anyone experienced any lip sync differences between SDR and HDR playback? Or Dolby Vision and HDR10 on any of the Dolby Vision discs? I am planning lip sync clips for all of the above.

For the current UHD BD discs, have they all been 23.976 vs. 24? For Billy Lynn, is it 59.94 or 60?

For lip sync, should I include all of these?
23.976
24
25
50
59.94
60

Would be nice to drop 24 and 60 if 23.976 and 59.94 is the norm.

In addition to the visual versions, like we have on the current disc, we will have full screen flash (black and white) because we are supporting the Sync-One2 box.

UHD BD supports HDR10, DV and Philips. Anyone seen or heard anything on the Philips?

Most of the HD haters, that I have encountered, have never actually seen HDR. I do have some friends, with edge lit 500 nit HDR TVs that complain HDR is too dim, compared to SDR, in daylight. There are so many things wrong with that scenario, but I tend to tell all of my friends, if you are watching in daylight, watch the SDR version. They don't like that answer. I watch the SDR version on the Z9D, when the shades are up and its bright outside.