Issues and Settings on Dolby Vision Discs

[Vinyljunki]

No grey bar issue for me either. Like a good few here, I use the Oppo 203 and an LG E6 65. On my calibrated set I use oled light 50, contrast 100, bright 50, colour 50. Looks pretty good from where I am sitting :-)

[philochs]

Warner Bros. is set to release their first UHD Blu-ray w/ Dolby Vision encoding now 'by the end of 2017'. This is because of issues they've had with properly encoding disks in Dolby Vision. Presumably, this is why the Harry Potter films weren't the first ones with Dolby Vision, when it was initially reported they would be. Warner Bros. plans to concurrently support both Dolby Vision and HDR10+ on disc. What do you guys make of that?

https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...t-3820712.html

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by philochs

Warner Bros. is set to release their first UHD Blu-ray w/ Dolby Vision encoding now 'by the end of 2017'. This is because of issues they've had with properly encoding disks in Dolby Vision. Presumably, this is why the Harry Potter films weren't the first ones with Dolby Vision, when it was initially reported they would be. Warner Bros. plans to concurrently support both Dolby Vision and HDR10+ on disc. What do you guys make of that?

https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...t-3820712.html

About time.

Does this mean they plan on using HDR10+ as the base layer for Dolby Vision, and is that even possible at this moment? Technically, I think it could be done as the DV encoder could just replace the HDR10+ metadata with its own or possibly just ignore it in the core+extension combining process.

[BozQ]

It's a long shot. But I guess the first title might be Justice League, if the film still makes it for November theatrical release.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by philochs

Warner Bros. is set to release their first UHD Blu-ray w/ Dolby Vision encoding now 'by the end of 2017'. This is because of issues they've had with properly encoding disks in Dolby Vision. Presumably, this is why the Harry Potter films weren't the first ones with Dolby Vision, when it was initially reported they would be. Warner Bros. plans to concurrently support both Dolby Vision and HDR10+ on disc. What do you guys make of that?

https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...t-3820712.html

What I make of that is that WB is paying lip service to Dolby just to see how things play out (with DV's widespread issues, and until it's official that HDR10+ receives the BDA rubber stamp) but will ultimately go with HDR10+ exclusively as their optional layer once it becomes apparent that DV will inevitably die a slow and painful death.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

About time.

Does this mean they plan on using HDR10+ as the base layer for Dolby Vision, and is that even possible at this moment? Technically, I think it could be done as the DV encoder could just replace the HDR10+ metadata with its own or possibly just ignore it in the core+extension combining process.

For me it's more that the HDR10 base layer is directly derived from the DV master which is partly why the two are sympatico when they're later merged in the DV decompression process, so you can't just create a standalone static HDR10 grade for the HDR10+ information to sit atop and then somehow add DV on top. The HDR10 comes from the DV in the mastering stage, and then in the encoding/decoding stages for disc the DV comes from the HDR10. The son becomes the father and the father, the son.

There's nothing stopping them from taking the post-DV HDR10 derivation and then running that through the HDR10+ process, but where do your decisions to create that metadata then stem from? I kinda doubt that Dolby's metadata is going to be cross compatible with HDR10+ (using different formulae and such) so you can't just port it across, you'll have to take that HDR10 grade and run off an entirely new set of values compared to your master.

FWIW John Archer remarked that Florian Freidrich told him that putting both on disc would not be an easy process, and given the issues that Dolby have had with DV on disc thus far then IMO the studios should just take it one step at a time.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

I would take Dolby Vision over HDR10+ any day (especially since their encoding "problems" seem to have been worked out) to eliminate banding and increase bit depth and chroma sampling. Plus, the compression levels seem to be lower from what I've seen so far. I believe their encoder also does the HEVC compression passes too after the mastering stage.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

I would take Dolby Vision over HDR10+ any day (especially since their encoding "problems" seem to have been worked out) to eliminate banding and increase bit depth and chroma sampling. Plus, the compression levels seem to be lower from what I've seen so far. I believe their encoder also does the HEVC compression passes too after the mastering stage.

Erm...okay? I was talking about the issues with putting both HDR10+ and DV on one disc as I see them, not which one is better or worse, but you just couldn't contain dat DV dedication. It always comes spilling out after one or two posts on the subject.

Seeing as DV on home media is the digital equivalent of sticking a quart in a pint pot I'm interested as to how the compression is "lower". Do "they" even have an HEVC encoder or is this simply something built into whichever tools are used to compress DV for disc? Still, given the 25% overhead that the DV enhancement layer needs then I'm not surprised that compression techniques needed to be revised to go along with it, that's not an insignificant amount of total bitrate being given over to the DV layer.

[HeatEquation]

Another thing that may sound the death knell for DV, other than the problems that the format is still experiencing to this very day, is that there appears to be no difference in quality between DV and HDR10+ on current displays.

Let's not forget about Vincent Teoh's DV vs HDR10 comparison, where he concluded that the difference would be biggest on TV's with sub-optimal peak brightness and poor tone mapping, while on higher end TVs, there is no difference. The comparison he did between HDR10+ and HDR10 at IFA seemed to yield similar results. He appeared to be equally as impressed with the difference between the two formats on mid to lower end TVs. An interesting note, however, is that one of the other videos shown that had two higher nit TVs side by side at IFA, still showed noticeable difference between the two formats.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

once it becomes apparent that DV will inevitably die a slow and painful death

And on what evidence do you anticipate that it will?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

And on what evidence do you anticipate that it will?

The emergence of a format that is at least equal in quality, without any royalty fees, and that has gained a ton of traction during a period in which DV has experienced, and continues to experience, serious issues. It's also reportedly very easy to implement.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

What I make of that is that WB is paying lip service to Dolby just to see how things play out (with DV's widespread issues, and until it's official that HDR10+ receives the BDA rubber stamp) but will ultimately go with HDR10+ exclusively as their optional layer once it becomes apparent that DV will inevitably die a slow and painful death.

Dude, Dolby Vision isn't going away. Every major studio supports it on disc, sans 20th Century Fox and Disney. Disney is going to eventually support it, once the kinks are ironed out, and Fox helped develop HDR10+ so they have a reason to want to help HDR10+ succeed. So far, only Warner Bros. and Fox have signed up for producing HDR10+ discs. There are no HDMI 2.1 players on the market as of sep 2017, they're not yet announced, so it's a little premature to be talking about the death of Dolby Vision. You may as well argue that Pepsi is going to be the end of Coca-Cola.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by philochs

Dude, Dolby Vision isn't going away. Every major studio supports it on disc, sans 20th Century Fox and Disney. Disney is going to eventually support it, once the kinks are ironed out, and Fox helped develop HDR10+ so they have a reason to want to help HDR10+ succeed. So far, only Warner Bros. and Fox have signed up for producing HDR10+ discs. There are no HDMI 2.1 players on the market as of sep 2017, they're not yet announced, so it's a little premature to be talking about the death of Dolby Vision. You may as well argue that Pepsi is going to be the end of Coca-Cola.

HDR10+ doesn't require HDMI 2.1.

Every major studio will drop DV in favor of the [at least] equal format that is more cost effective and easier to implement.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

the [at least] equal format

By what measure is it at least equal? The only one I can see is that they both allow you to put an "HDR" bullet on your packaging.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

HDR10+ doesn't require HDMI 2.1.

Every major studio will drop DV in favor of the [at least] equal format that is more cost effective and easier to implement.

HDR10+ requires HDMI 2.1 if you want to use HDMI cables and UHD Blu-ray discs. The only way it works without HDMI 2.1 is with built-in streaming tv apps. So it's a moot point. No studios are dropping Dolby Vision, some are bound to adopt both formats. The directors and other creative types involved seem to have a preference and love for Dolby Vision. Even if HDR10+ becomes more frequently used than Dolby Vision, Dolby Vision encodes will still exist. I give zero credibility to your prediction, until you have some compelling reasons for thinking the way you do, I'm just going to think of you as an HDR10+ fanboy. The facts are clear, both HDR formats will coexist in harmony.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by philochs

HDR10+ requires HDMI 2.1 if you want to use HDMI cables and UHD Blu-ray discs. The only way it works without HDMI 2.1 is with built-in streaming tv apps. So it's a moot point. No studios are dropping Dolby Vision, some are bound to adopt both formats. The directors and other creative types involved seem to have a preference and love for Dolby Vision. Even if HDR10+ becomes more frequently used than Dolby Vision, Dolby Vision encodes will still exist. I give zero credibility to your prediction, until you have some compelling reasons for thinking the way you do, I'm just going to think of you as an HDR10+ fanboy. The facts are clear, both HDR formats will coexist in harmony.

HDR10+ does not require HDMI 2.1 to work over HDMI. This misconception has already been proven to be false. It works with HDMI 2.0b.

[cynatnite]

I think it's a little premature to declare DV's death considering how new it still is. I remember when blu-ray came out and some movies wouldn't play at all in some players. Kinks had to get worked out and they did.

Give it another six months to a year. If there is still little content with DV and issues aren't resolved, then I'd say there might be a problem.

Hell, 4K is still new.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

HDR10+ does not require HDMI 2.1 to work over HDMI. This misconception has already been proven to be false. It works with HDMI 2.0b.

Misconception? The major benefit of HDMI 2.1 is that it works with dynamic metadata. Where is your source for your claim that HDR10+ works with current HDMI 2.0? Why don't any players and discs support HDR10+ then? What are they waiting for? Lol.

[tyrok]

Originally Posted by BozQ

It's a long shot. But I guess the first title might be Justice League, if the film still makes it for November theatrical release.

That would put the home release around late Feb/early March though. IT and Lego Ninjago are probably the last new releases from them that could come out with DV before the end of the year.

[Jason 831]

Rumors that Apple TV might support Dolby Vision. I guess DV might not be so bad after all

https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/...-11-gm-leak%2F