How Good Is The US "Hulk" Blu-Ray?

[Grant Matrix]

I finally rented this a couple months agao. The picture and audio were outstanding. The movie wasn't bad, not one that I would add to the collection but def worth seeing at least once. It takes a lot of liberty on the Hulk origin which dviates massivly from the comics and other media. I think stronger actors would have helped the movie. Eric Bana just never felt like Bruce Banner. Ang Lee took kind of an artsy approach to the film, which gives it a unique feel. Action sequences were excellent, but the ending went too far out of the realm of believability. If you never saw, I would def recommend renting first.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally Posted by Grant Matrix

It takes a lot of liberty on the Hulk origin which dviates massivly from the comics and other media.

I wouldn't type "dviates massivly", for a number of reasons. The first being that he was hit with gamma radiation as he was saving someone else. If you're refering to the whole backstory of his father experimenting on himself, I actually found it to make a good explanation for Bruce's transformation into The Hulk, instead of the radiation just killing him. It took nothing from the story.

[arrow61095]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

......... his changes due to heartbeats instead of anger.

I think they could have done a better job of explaining this, since it was kind of glossed over in the movie.

It was more about that adrenaline (Epinephrine) was what caused him to change into the Hulk.

The hormone boosts the supply of oxygen and glucose to the brain and muscles, while suppressing other non-emergency bodily processes (digestion in particular). It increases heart rate and stroke volume, dilates the pupils, and constricts arterioles in the skin and gastrointestinal tract while dilating arterioles in skeletal muscles. It elevates the blood sugar level by increasing catabolism of glycogen to glucose in the liver, and at the same time begins the breakdown of lipids in fat cells. Like some other stress hormones, epinephrine has a suppressive effect on the immune system. Although epinephrine does not have any psychoactive effects, stress or arousal also releases norepinephrine in the brain. Norepinephrine has similar actions in the body, but is also psychoactive. Norepinephrine affects parts of the brain where attention and responding actions are controlled. (Perfect fit for the Hulk.)

He most likely was using the heart monitor as a means of detecting how much adrenaline his body was currently producing.

More excited/worked up -> leads to higher adrenaline -> leads to higher heart rate.
Thus, if his heart rate were to increase, Banner would want to calm himself to slow the production of adrenaline in his body. Our bodies produce adrenaline at all times, but increase production in stressfull situations (anger, extreme excitement, fear). There would most likely be a set level of production that would cause him to transform into the Hulk.

The mistake that the movie made was that it portrayed an automatic transformation when Banner's heart rate hit 200 beats per minute. It most likely would not be an exact number, and would vary slightly from transformation to transformation (would probably stay within a 0-15 beat per minute range). It also did not explain the connections between adrenaline and heart beat, leaving the viewer to have to make that connection on their own.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by arrow61095

I think they could have done a better job of explaining this, since it was kind of glossed over in the movie.

It was more about that adrenaline (Epinephrine) was what caused him to change into the Hulk.

The hormone boosts the supply of oxygen and glucose to the brain and muscles, while suppressing other non-emergency bodily processes (digestion in particular). It increases heart rate and stroke volume, dilates the pupils, and constricts arterioles in the skin and gastrointestinal tract while dilating arterioles in skeletal muscles. It elevates the blood sugar level by increasing catabolism of glycogen to glucose in the liver, and at the same time begins the breakdown of lipids in fat cells. Like some other stress hormones, epinephrine has a suppressive effect on the immune system. Although epinephrine does not have any psychoactive effects, stress or arousal also releases norepinephrine in the brain. Norepinephrine has similar actions in the body, but is also psychoactive.

He most likely was using the heart monitor as a means of detecting how much adrenaline his body was currently producing.

More excited/worked up -> leads to higher adrenaline -> leads to higher heart rate.
Thus, if his heart rate were to increase, Banner would want to calm himself to slow the production of adrenaline in his body. Our bodies produce adrenaline at all times, but increase production in stressfull situations (anger, extreme excitement, fear). There would most likely be a set level of production that would cause him to transform into the Hulk.

The mistake that the movie made was that it portrayed an automatic transformation when Banner's heart rate hit 200 beats per minute. It most likely would not be an exact number, and would vary slightly from transformation to transformation (would probably stay within a 0-15 beat per minute range). It also did not explain the connections between adrenaline and heart beat, leaving the viewer to have to make that connection on their own.

did you really just analyze it that much

[Red Hood]

Originally Posted by BrandonT

did you really just analyze it that much

[PSB_Paradigm_HSU]

Originally Posted by DeadDog

Agreed

Agreed +1

[tuco87]

Originally Posted by arrow61095

I think they could have done a better job of explaining this, since it was kind of glossed over in the movie.

It was more about that adrenaline (Epinephrine) was what caused him to change into the Hulk.

The hormone boosts the supply of oxygen and glucose to the brain and muscles, while suppressing other non-emergency bodily processes (digestion in particular). It increases heart rate and stroke volume, dilates the pupils, and constricts arterioles in the skin and gastrointestinal tract while dilating arterioles in skeletal muscles. It elevates the blood sugar level by increasing catabolism of glycogen to glucose in the liver, and at the same time begins the breakdown of lipids in fat cells. Like some other stress hormones, epinephrine has a suppressive effect on the immune system. Although epinephrine does not have any psychoactive effects, stress or arousal also releases norepinephrine in the brain. Norepinephrine has similar actions in the body, but is also psychoactive. Norepinephrine affects parts of the brain where attention and responding actions are controlled. (Perfect fit for the Hulk.)

He most likely was using the heart monitor as a means of detecting how much adrenaline his body was currently producing.

More excited/worked up -> leads to higher adrenaline -> leads to higher heart rate.
Thus, if his heart rate were to increase, Banner would want to calm himself to slow the production of adrenaline in his body. Our bodies produce adrenaline at all times, but increase production in stressfull situations (anger, extreme excitement, fear). There would most likely be a set level of production that would cause him to transform into the Hulk.

The mistake that the movie made was that it portrayed an automatic transformation when Banner's heart rate hit 200 beats per minute. It most likely would not be an exact number, and would vary slightly from transformation to transformation (would probably stay within a 0-15 beat per minute range). It also did not explain the connections between adrenaline and heart beat, leaving the viewer to have to make that connection on their own.

I can see someone got an A in human physiology with an emphasis on endocrinology!

The human body is a fascinating thing, isn't it?

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally Posted by arrow61095

I think they could have done a better job of explaining this, since it was kind of glossed over in the movie.

It was more about that adrenaline (Epinephrine) was what caused him to change into the Hulk.

I guess you could equate this with what Lucas did by introducing midichlorians to explain The Force (although that never really bothered me, it does seem to bother a whole lotta other fans, though). I don't buy this explanation because it makes his transformations too easy. He can't run. He can't get excited. He couldn't even have sex! Anger is the perfect trigger for the change becasue The Hulk is supposed to be a creature of RAGE! I'm not understanding why we needed a meter to warn us of his change. What's wrong with him changing when he became pissed? How is seeing him try to restrain his anger any less exciting than seeing him try to reduce his heartrate (which wasn't exciting in the least)?

[arrow61095]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

I guess you could equate this with what Lucas did by introducing midichlorians to explain The Force (although that never really bothered me, it does seem to bother a whole lotta other fans, though). I don't buy this explanation because it makes his transformations too easy. He can't run. He can't get excited. He couldn't even have sex! Anger is the perfect trigger for the change becasue The Hulk is supposed to be a creature of RAGE! I'm not understanding why we needed a meter to warn us of his change. What's wrong with him changing when he became pissed? How is seeing him try to restrain his anger any less exciting than seeing him try to reduce his heartrate (which wasn't exciting in the least)?

I can understand that someone may not like this. So, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on which is the better movie.

Personally, I think they were just trying to adapt the story to add a more scientific background (as has been done before in the case of the Hulk).
In truth, the continuity and consistency of how the Hulk is portrayed in the comics is horrible and contradictory at times.

With how many different versions of Hulk there were for writers to pull source material from, the story for Ang Lee's Hulk and the new Incredible Hulk could both have been much much worse.


----------

The original Hulk was grey when he was created in 1962, and his first transformations were triggered by sundown, and his return to Banner by dawn. (nothing to do with RAGE.) The Hulk himself was portrayed as a confused, shambling creature with an intense hatred for mankind. The Hulk was changed to be Green in the second issue due to printing problems. The Hulk retained a modest intelligence, thinking and talking in full sentences, and Lee even gave the Hulk expository dialogue in issue six.

In the 1970’s, Hulk was changed again to be shown as more prone to anger and rage, and less talkative. Writers played with the nature of his transformations, briefly giving Banner control over the change, and the ability to maintain control of his Hulk form. The Hulk's favorite catch phrases at the time were, "Hulk Smash" "Hulk is the strongest one there is" etc. Shortly after this, Hulk stories began to involve other dimensions

Some of the modern Hulk stories further changed the story to try to give a more physiological explaination for the transformation into the Hulk. Basically, the changing of Banner into the Hulk is a physical change, so the story was changed to give it more physical causes as opposed to psychological ones.

Yet other modern stories say that Banner had Multiple Personality Disorder from being abused by his father at a young age, and that the gamma radiation caused these multiple personality to become different Hulks (the grey one, and the green one), putting the root of the change back in psychology. (This is actually the current version that the comic writers are using)

So, as I mentioned earlier, the backstory for the Hulk is really a mess.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally Posted by arrow61095

I can understand that someone may not like this. So, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on which is the better movie.

At this, I suppose I must agree.

Personally, I think they were just trying to adapt the story to add a more scientific background (as has been done before in the case of the Hulk).

I actually wouldn't have a problem if they would have done it the way you had so perfectly worded it. In fact, I thought that's where they were going at first, but when he turned down sex with Betty for fear of changing... I was all, "OH, C'MON!" (To tell you the truth, I woulda risked it. )

In truth, the continuity and consistency of how the Hulk is portrayed in the comics is horrible and contradictory at times.

With how many different versions of Hulk there were for writers to pull source material from, the story for Ang Lee's Hulk and the new Incredible Hulk could both have been much much worse.

I also agree with this. However, his transformations due to anger are what the character is the most popular for, and since they're always trying to make these movies more accessible to a wider audience... But I understand what you're typin'.

[GreenScar]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

At this, I suppose I must agree.

I actually wouldn't have a problem if they would have done it the way you had so perfectly worded it. In fact, I thought that's where they were going at first, but when he turned down sex with Betty for fear of changing... I was all, "OH, C'MON!" (To tell you the truth, I woulda risked it. )

I also agree with this. However, his transformations due to anger are what the character is the most popular for, and since they're always trying to make these movies more accessible to a wider audience... But I understand what you're typin'.

I would chime in to say that in TIH (you seem to mainly have a problem with the sex part) in all fairness, this would be his first time since The Hulk was unleashed. Don't you think it makes more sense for a 'better safe than sorry' routine? In the moment he obviously thought better of it. I would go on to say that at the end of the movie when he is trying to trigger the change on his own would be Bruce learning the limitations. I would go on to say that I don't recall a time that Bruce and Betty got intimate with each other except perhaps when Bruce had total control.

Have you watched the new one again yet? Check out the deleted scenes. Some of the features.

Thanks arrow61095 for your well thought out posts. Very good stuff. I had previously tried to explain the same points albeit in a less effective way.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally Posted by jasonbird

I would chime in to say that in TIH (you seem to mainly have a problem with the sex part)

That's because "the sex part" is what defined his changes. It immediatly went from the theory that arrow61095 typed up and basically said that it was strictly any kinda heartbeats that caused the change. I went in wanting to see anger incarnate and I got a man who would change into a mildly irritated green guy when his heartrate reached 200 bpm (you gotta admit, the "new" Hulk didn't get anywhere near as angry as the "old" one and I think it's mostly because he didn't have to be angry to become The Hulk).

Have you watched the new one again yet? Check out the deleted scenes. Some of the features.

Not yet. It's the Christmas Season, my money has gone to everyone else! I'll get my hands on it soon enough though, and I'll let you know if my feelings have changed upon a second viewing.

I had previously tried to explain the same points albeit in a less effective way.

Oh, you weren't that bad. You got me wanting to re-check out a movie that I was hellbent on leaving on the shelf for quite a long time.

[GreenScar]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

That's because "the sex part" is what defined his changes. It immediatly went from the theory that arrow61095 typed up and basically said that it was strictly any kinda heartbeats that caused the change. I went in wanting to see anger incarnate and I got a man who would change into a mildly irritated green guy when his heartrate reached 200 bpm (you gotta admit, the "new" Hulk didn't get anywhere near as angry as the "old" one and I think it's mostly because he didn't have to be angry to become The Hulk).

I think I'm not making my point correctly. ( ) My point being that it was the unknown that Bruce was afraid of. Yea, they could have done without the watch and been fine (I think it was a tool they thought they needed that they really didn't) but still the fact that maybe he's not entirely sure as of yet just what triggers the change. Look at it from Bruce's point of view, the adrenaline thing makes sense scientifically where solely anger wouldn't (at least to a scientist). Maybe he has his theories on anger, but as a scientist I think he would gravitate towards a more logical/scientific explanation. Going back a bit, I believe in the movie the Hulk had appeared 3 years prior (if I remember correctly) and the movie starts with the last change being approx 5 months prior (I think it was 157 days). So it's safe to say that Bruce is learning about the changes still. Remember he blacks out and the last thing he probably associates with the change at this point is the elevated heart rate. It's logical for him to think the way he does.

You will remember that Anger being the prime reason for his transformation comes from the Television show. The comic was more in line with arrows post. There were times where the Hulk forced his way out (like the alternate opening to TIH and the first transformation in Lee's Hulk). And other times that the Hulk came simply out of necessity (like the Helicopter drop at the end of TIH). Other times the transformation would trigger in moments of the need for heroism (like the one on campus when he wanted to save Betty). While I like the rage aspect, it's not in line with the comics (the sole reason being anger).

I do have a greater appreciation for the first film (you've opened my eyes on what Lee was trying to accomplish). It was more focused on the Hulk being an entirely different entity in Banners subconsciousness. I always liked the storylines that dealt with this. The dream sequences were very good (along with Hulk's disdain for Banner, "Puny Human")

[kndy]

I accidentally purchased this on Black Friday (thinking it was the new one) but you know...after watching it on Blu-ray, I'm quite happy with it. Those battle scenes look awesome and actually liked the PiP...had no idea it was Ang Lee in the motion capture...hehe.. but overall, the Blu-ray actually made my appreciation of the first movie much better.

[Mobe1969]

I thought the Ang Lee Hulk was a fantastic movie, and the visual style was awesome, and something I've never seen before and since (eg, the comic framing, image overlay and fade outs / shot transitions. He really tried some new stuff making it and I thought it worked very nicely.

PQ was awesome.

The sound on it was incredible as well. It nearly shook my house down.

The new one was great as well, but I feel they stuffed some things up, like Brucie having to be celibate. I mean WTF? They took it from being anger based to what, heart rate linked? And what sort of half fit man couldn't have sex without hitting a 200 bpm heart rate???... FFS... Even a 200 pounds over fattie could do that....

[GreenScar]

Originally Posted by Mobe1969

The new one was great as well, but I feel they stuffed some things up, like Brucie having to be celibate. I mean WTF? They took it from being anger based to what, heart rate linked? And what sort of half fit man couldn't have sex without hitting a 200 bpm heart rate???... FFS... Even a 200 pounds over fattie could do that....

Guys, it was in there for comic relief. You guys are taking that scene far too seriously. If you can't take the explanations already given in the thread already then I'll take that scene vs Hulk biting the missile and spitting it at the helicopter and say we're even.

BTW, just picked up Hulk (2003) on blu for under $10 at Fry's Electronics. Looking forward to watching it for the first time on blu.

[Elbie]

Originally Posted by BrandonT

That's one of the things I liked about the movie - felt way more comic-booky than the newer one.

Yeah, that was like the only thing I liked.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally Posted by jasonbird

Guys, it was in there for comic relief. You guys are taking that scene far too seriously. If you can't take the explanations already given in the thread already then I'll take that scene vs Hulk biting the missile and spitting it at the helicopter and say we're even.

That's the thing about that particular scene, the "joke" was out of place. It apparently only confused people who didn't understand why in the crap a monster born through anger would emerge during the making of sweet, sweet love. As I pointed out earlier: it is the GENERAL PUBLIC'S understanding that The Hulk is born through anger. This is also one aspect that most people LOVE about The Hulk. (Who doesn't wish they grew stronger when they became enraged?) To throw this joke into the mix, it takes you out of the movie to ask "Huh?" Even after all of your explanations, I still don't like the scene. Simply because it just doesn't belong in this movie.

I'll give you the "Hulk biting the missile and spitting it at the helicopter" scene. In fact, I've already pointed out in our last discussion that this was one aspect of Lee's Hulk that was out of character. I don't like it either. He shoulda threw the whole thing at that sucker! (However, Lee got 'im right more than he got 'im wrong.)

Now, you claim that I have taken elements from the television show and confused them with the comics. Maybe you're right. I haven't read 'The Incredible Hulk' since I was a young boy and I read them so much that I no longer have any older issues in my collection (they fell apart from being flipped through so much). However, in my favorite stories, The Hulk was angry as all get out, and I remember them quite well (even if I can't remember their issue numbers). I mean, in my most recent story involving The Hulk, Jean Grey removes the "Banner" part of his mind and out comes this CREATURE OF PURE RAGE that is so strong he actually breaks through Onslaught's armor when nobody (and I mean NOBODY) else could! Can I remember the instances that made Banner change in my older comics? Not really. But I do remember The Hulk wailing on someone or other that had pissed him off!

BTW, just picked up Hulk (2003) on blu for under $10 at Fry's Electronics. Looking forward to watching it for the first time on blu.

I'm sure you'll have a wonderful time.

Well, well, well. You finally got "Hulk" and I just got "The Incredible Hulk" from a well meaning relative for Christmas (they knew I liked comic books and movies and this was a comic book movie, so... )! I just got through watchin' it for the first time since I saw it in the theater and I still like "Hulk" alot more... but I don't quite hate this one as much as I did.

One huge mistake I made was thinking that Norton was still built like he was in "Fight Club", he wasn't (I'm surprised nobody called me on that one. You guys are usually so quick )! He was actually built like a wimp, but I still find Bana to be a wimpier Bruce(and as we well know: wimpier is better when it comes to Bruce Banner). I still didn't like the look of The Hulk and he still didn't look anything like Edward Norton to me (and I really looked hard). And I'm sorry, he was too detailed for my taste. There is such a thing as too much in the case of The Hulk and Louis Leterrier went way beyond "too much" to try to make his Hulk more "real". He didn't look tense. He just looked like he had a buncha extra-tight wrinkles.

A few of the bigger mistakes the movie made for me:
Bruce was robbed of his heroism in his original origin with the "homage" to the tv show one.
The Hulk answers to Bruce. (I had actually forgotten about that one!) He hates "Puny Banner" and he'd flip out anytime he heard his name.
I really hated when he grabbed a police car to beat The Abomination down. That just wasn't "Hulk" behavior. The Hulk woulda used his FISTS to beat that turd into the ground!
He didn't look that angry as he was fighting The Abomination. At one point in the fight he actually seems to roll his eyes (this is after he's made to look like a stumbling buffoon for more comedy that didn't belong)!
The end fight was anti-climatic. It went on for too long and then

[Show spoiler]The Hulk finally defeats him by choking him out.

Give me The Hulk pouring his rage into his father any day of the week over that one. Mushroom cloud notwithstanding, the emotional impact of that ending was there in spades!

I can't really say a whole lot of good things about it. Although, it had its moments:
The action scenes were fun (up until the final fight).
The effects work (other than what they did with The Hulk) was pretty good.
I loved getting the origin of

[Show spoiler]The Leader

in the story.
I thought the cast did a good job with what they had to work with.
I absolutely loved the scene when he screamed at the thunderstorm! (If only he stayed that angry when fighting.)

After "Hulk", this one seems like a by-the-numbers action movie. Nothing more. I liked Lee's "artful and intelligent" approach more than the "I want more action" one. All in all, I'm NOT sorry I have this. It'll just be my "What if?" story for The Hulk.

[GreenScar]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

I haven't read 'The Incredible Hulk' since I was a young boy and I read them so much that I no longer have any older issues in my collection (they fell apart from being flipped through so much). However, in my favorite stories, The Hulk was angry as all get out, and I remember them quite well (even if I can't remember their issue numbers). I mean, in my most recent story involving The Hulk, Jean Grey removes the "Banner" part of his mind and out comes this CREATURE OF PURE RAGE that is so strong he actually breaks through Onslaught's armor when nobody (and I mean NOBODY) else could! Can I remember the instances that made Banner change in my older comics? Not really. But I do remember The Hulk wailing on someone or other that had pissed him off!

Now I understand.

You might just have a selective memory when it comes to Hulk. The rage you're remembering were moments when the Hulk had total control. Obviously different writers had different takes on Hulk and he changed throughout his run. The Hulk never wanted to fight. He always wanted to be left alone (when he says this in the bottling factory my hair was standing on end). This is strengthened by the fact that when he thinks the fight is over and the Abomination reappears the Hulk actually sighs then gets angry again. Look at the Hulks face when you can see him getting more and more pissed when the Abomination has him pinned to the wall and tells him, "You can watch her die!" There isn't any scene that compares in the first movie to the rage in his face as he's about the snap the neck of Blonsky with the chain (Betty being the link to humanity that stops him). Amazing!

The Hulk has more than one emotion (Rage) and he displayed it in the comics. There were only two times in the comics that Hulk was rage incarnate (that I can recall). The time you described above and the other is when John Byrne wrote the separation of Hulk and Banner (which in turn was slowly killing them both). To be perfectly honest (trying to think of his moments of rage) the only time he really released large amount of rage was when he was losing a fight (that's when he would get really pissed).

Remember the movie takes place early on in the life of the Hulk. That's why Banner wasn't sure what triggered the changes. If you were with the love of your life, and you weren't sure you'd kill her...scratch that, if you had .000000000001% doubt. Think about it (realistically). Again, if someone can show me in the comics where Bruce had intercourse (while not in total control) then I'll personally write a letter to Letterier calling him a dumbass.

(However, Lee got 'im right more than he got 'im wrong.)

His growing in size and his super speed totally took me out of the movie. So much so that every time they used them I would not be able to shake it for 3 or 4 minutes. I think I really could've loved the film if it wasn't for this.

Lol, I remember thinking What was he watching when you said Norton was tough looking. I still think that he looks more scrawny than Bana. It's to bad there's no side by side image to compare the two.

Bruce was robbed of his heroism in his original origin with the "homage" to the tv show one. I think your jumping a bit here. His origin wasn't even explained in the new film. The 2003 film wasn't all that heroic. He was already in the room he helped the intern get un-stuck and when he realized that they couldn't get out he tried to shield the gamma rays. The problem is the accident should have killed the intern who was still in the room. By him not dieing of Gamma Poisoning, it totally minimized the danger. He didn't need to be saved because the Rays weren't dangerous to him. I guess because he didn't inhale the Nanobites?!
The Hulk answers to Bruce. (I had actually forgotten about that one!) He hates "Puny Banner" and he'd flip out anytime he heard his name. In the comics he's gone both ways. Check out the extra feature that compares the scene in the grotto with the actual comic it was based on.
I really hated when he grabbed a police car to beat The Abomination down. That just wasn't "Hulk" behavior. The Hulk woulda used his FISTS to beat that turd into the ground!The Hulk often would pick up whatever was close to him and use it against his opponent. Specially when his opponent is stronger than him. This scene was taken from the video game that was released when Ang Lee's film was released.
He didn't look that angry as he was fighting The Abomination. At one point in the fight he actually seems to roll his eyes (this is after he's made to look like a stumbling buffoon for more comedy that didn't belong)!Already addressed this. And the part when he stumbled was to let people know two things. One, he has never been hit by something stronger than him and two he can be hurt. This did happen in the comics and it was not for comic relief.
The end fight was anti-climatic. It went on for too long and then The Hulk finally defeats him by choking him out. Give me The Hulk pouring his rage into his father any day of the week over that one. Mushroom cloud notwithstanding, the emotional impact of that ending was there in spades! You've explained this to me before and while I see your point about the 2003 ending, it still came off as silly to me. After all the complaining about the Hulk not beating up on somebody to prefer him finishing the battle against a proverbial metaphor? I'm sorry but anyone that wasn't totally stoked by the finale Hulk vs. Abomination beginning to end just isn't a real Hulk fan in my view. I can't see any way around it. In one part you talk about the absolute rage and then in another you dismiss the absolute rage he had when he was choking The Abomination. (Am I missing something?) Lee should have had the Hulk pound Nolte over and over again and while doing so shown Nolte absorbing Hulks powers. It needed to be physical and he could/should have pulled it off that way.

Moments when you see Norton in Hulks face. Check him out when Betty walks up to him on the college campus. Again when they are in the cave. Lastly when he's just beaten the Abomination. During the moments of calm. All I see is Norton during those scenes. The Hulk looks so much better in the new movie. His muscles actually flex! You can see his veins pump with the beat of his heart! (AMAZING) He doesn't look like the Shrek (re 2003). He actually has a neck and can turn his head without pivoting his whole body.

Are you seriously going to tell me this:



Looks better than this?!



Rhythm & Hues did an amazing job making the Hulk look more realistic. From the LA Times:

The new man-monster, created by lead digital effects house Rhythm & Hues -- with a look markedly different from the '03 model designed by effects giant Industrial Light & Magic -- ranks first.

"Very early on, we tried to identify what was wrong with the first movie," says Leterrier, a Frenchman who made an impression on Marvel with his work on the "Transporter" movies. "The story was a little too dark. But visually, it was the absolute opposite, with a Day-Glo, chubby Hulk that looked like a Buddha on steroids. The fundamental design was just wrong."

"The Hulk almost had the proportions of a toddler," says Kevin Feige, Marvel production president and an executive producer on Lee's film. "And yet his size was so large, there was always a great physical distance between him and any human characters, making it more like a relationship with King Kong than this hulking man. It just didn't connect."

In fact, that was the case from its first commercial -- during the Super Bowl -- onward, as fans ridiculed the visuals for Lee's Hulk, letting up a bit only when the movie finally opened. But the film's heavily Freudian story line became an equally powerful rant magnet.

Starting from scratch, Rhythm & Hues did some of its earliest conceptualizing not with some Hulk-size mega-server but just a printer and a green toner cartridge. A 9-foot paper template of the Hulk was output and slapped on the wall of a production office for a few weeks to give the crew a practical feel for how other characters would relate to him physically. (In Lee's movie, the character's size changed randomly with his mood swings, to much criticism.)

Of course, effects artists also take on more involved research, trying to reconcile Leterrier's vision of a ripped Hulk -- "remember that poster of Bruce Lee where he's super-flexed, and you see all the striation?" the director says -- with actual anatomy and physics. Bodybuilders were the reference models, but the resulting digital composite had a flexibility deliberately at odds with their pumped-up muscle mass, and endoskeletal extrapolations that lent new meaning to the term "big-boned."

Skin tone was another primary focus, as animators studiously considered, yes, what it would mean to be someone with green blood coursing through his veins. Their determination: The "meat" would be darker as a result, not brighter. Accordingly, their Hulk appears olive in most scenes and, fleetingly, almost slate gray. "We wanted to incorporate him more into our environment, to make him feel like he's right there and you could touch him," says visual effects supervisor Kurt Williams, whose team used software engineered for the fantasy menagerie of "The Golden Compass" as a springboard for rendering the Hulk. "We needed to approach him like a CG [computer graphics] human, not a creature."

While the filmmakers opted to base the Hulk's features on the comics rather than Norton's appearance, they did want to incorporate the actor's mannerisms. "We wanted audiences to be able to read more of Bruce Banner, more emotion," Williams says. One tool for the job was a cutting-edge motion-capture system that employs phosphorescent face paint and strobe lighting to digitally grab even the most subtle facial movement.

Still, for all the added finessing that can be done five years on, Hulk 2.0's unveiling was hardly an unqualified success. As trailers rolled out, the old criticisms about the character's lack of photo-realism once again rang out. Feige puts a positive spin on reaction to the early footage, insisting, "The argument isn't what it was on the first movie -- 'He doesn't look good, he's too bright, he's got a beer belly.' Now it's 'The gleam on his shoulder looks a little plastic-y.' That's a huge victory."

The buzz got better as the movie began screening for review, with a number of fan website "spies" conceding that the effects, while not completely immersing, do look polished and are carried well by the brisk plotline. To tap the comic Hulk's heroism and to place him in genuine jeopardy, the story pits him against the Abomination, a creature played by Tim Roth in human form. In Leterrier's ideal cinemonde, the film will offer sufficient action -- including "the biggest bar fight in movie history, with New York as the bar" -- that fans will stop micro-analyzing and start cheering.

But however the finished product goes over, the battle of perception will have been all uphill for the filmmakers. So did Williams think twice about signing on? "Quite honestly, I don't think we looked back a lot," he says. "I don't blame people for not accepting our Hulk right away. Any time you present something new that's been previously established in people's minds, it takes a little bit for them to look at it and say, 'Yes, that's better. That's the Hulk from the comics.' "

I'll critique The Hulk (2003) after I see it later this week or early the next. It's been too long since I've seen it to delve into it's problems. Meanwhile here's my Christmas gift to you :

[hanumang]

Amazing that such a widely reviled flick is provoking this kind of in-depth discussion five years later. Fascinating to read, thanks for posting.

This thread is pushing me to re-buy this flick on Blu (and I have a fairly stringent no-rebuy policy) but for a reason that I haven't seen brought up yet - Danny Elfman's score is, in my mind, his greatest work ever.