Suspiria (1977) (Remastered)

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Mr. Thomsen

I caught the TLE restoration on the big screen, and yes, if you know what to look for, you can definitely see the green dominate in some scenes, and the blue looking slight 'off'. But overall I was very impressed, and had I not known which scenes to look for, I would probably just have stayed immersed in the experience.

Bottomline, even though I have pre-ordered the Synapse myself, I don't think anyone should lose any sleep over getting the TLE restoration instead - at least not when it comes to the PQ. It looks way better than anything we have had before!

Currently I am much more interested in what differences (if any) there may be between the (old?) 5.1 remix on the European releases and the restored original 4.0 mix on the Synapse. Reports from the US screenings have been saying it has more directional activity, and some say they are hearing sounds now they never noticed before.

I'll be getting the UK release too, and am looking forward to compare both.

The problems with the TLE restoration keep getting summed as "too much green, not enough blue" on here. But that's far from it.

The special look of Suspiria was achieved by using the last Technicolor by-pass printer in Italy before they all got sold off to China. So if you merely go back to the negative and print it as is, like TLE did, you don't get the over-saturated glow, reminiscent of pre-60s three strip Technicolor films which Tovoli went for.

The look of Suspiria was achieved in its printing process further down the line. What has to be done is to restore the look of the Suspiria Technicolor prints for a transfer that is true to Tovoli's intended look.

That's what Synapse are doing and why it was such a painstaking process and that's what TLE didn't do. The Synapse version replicates the hallucinatory look of Suspiria and that's why the TLE version looks comparatively conventional and dull in comparison. Sure, the art direction and colorful lighting are still there. What is missing is the look of the photo-chemical process, which made the colors pop the way they should.

[kidglov3s]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

The problems with the TLE restoration keep getting summed as "too much green, not enough blue" on here. But that's far from it.

The special look of Suspiria was achieved by using the last Technicolor by-pass printer in Italy before they all got sold off to China. So if you merely go back to the negative and print it as is, like TLE did, you don't get the over-saturated glow, reminiscent of pre-60s three strip Technicolor films which Tovoli went for.

The look of Suspiria was achieved in its printing process further down the line. What has to be done is to restore the look of the Suspiria Technicolor prints for a transfer that is true to Tovoli's intended look.

That's what Synapse are doing and why it was such a painstaking process and that's what TLE didn't do. The Synapse version replicates the hallucinatory look of Suspiria and that's why the TLE version looks comparatively conventional and dull in comparison. Sure, the art direction and colorful lighting are still there. What is missing is the look of the photo-chemical process, which made the colors pop the way they should.

Though I await the Synapse disc I am very grateful for TLE getting theirs out when they did. I've watched that disc three times this year and have enjoyed it thoroughly.

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by kidglov3s

Though I await the Synapse disc I am very grateful for TLE getting theirs out when they did. I've watched that disc three times this year and have enjoyed it thoroughly.

Good for you. I didn’t make it further than fifteen minutes with the TLE disc and got annoyed that I wasted money on it.

[stephengizmo]

Jesus people in this forum come across as very immature and are quick to shut down others opinions. Cult films UHD looks amazing, Dario was in London promotiong it Last month. Colours are amazing

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by stephengizmo

Jesus people in this forum come across as very immature and are quick to shut down others opinions. Cult films UHD looks amazing, Dario was in London promotiong it Last month. Colours are amazing

Who is shutting down anybody's opinion ?

[bipbop13]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

Who is shutting down anybody's opinion ?

no one really. Being rude and dismissive is you. Good for you indeed.
Had to turn it off after 15 minutes? Good for you.

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by bipbop13

no one really. Being rude and dismissive is you. Good for you indeed.
Had to turn it off after 15 minutes? Good for you.

If you check that post, kidglov3s didn't seem to mind. If I said anyone's an idiot for enjoying it, then that would be rude. If the TLE transfer of one of my favorite films looks wrong, why should I put myself through watching it to the end instead of waiting for the Synapse ? I actually gave a reason what is wrong with it, which has nothing to do with opinion. However it does require some knowledge of the history of the making of the film and of photo-chemical processes used to create the look of Suspiria. An opinion that the colors look nice to an individual on a forum doesn't quite cut it, when so much care was put into the look of a film, which was primarily designed to be an audio visual experience.

[chas speed]

I was just watching the Blu-ray to the very weird "Secret Beyond the Door" from Arrow Academy's region free "Four Film Noir Classics Set" and there is something about "the flower lilac being the key to the secret door of his mind". There is also a secret door with a lilac flower on it that opens a room in "Suspiria". "Suspiria" and "Secret Beyond the Door" both star Joan Bennett!

[Fatty J]

I could have sworn I saw a post on facebook from synapse saying they had a release date of the 19th, and they were going to get them shipped out asap. But now I can't find it. Anyone else see that, or am I just dumb?

[GODHOOD]

Originally Posted by Fatty J

I could have sworn I saw a post on facebook from synapse saying they had a release date of the 19th, and they were going to get them shipped out asap. But now I can't find it. Anyone else see that, or am I just dumb?

The only one I know that posted about the release date was Diabolik.dvd on their Facebook page.

[Bluebolt]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=6157

[Shingster]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

The special look of Suspiria was achieved by using the last Technicolor by-pass printer in Italy before they all got sold off to China. So if you merely go back to the negative and print it as is, like TLE did, you don't get the over-saturated glow, reminiscent of pre-60s three strip Technicolor films which Tovoli went for. s the look of the photo-chemical process, which made the colors pop the way they should.

I'm confused by this statement, are you saying that TLE Films scanned the negative and didn't bother to master it to match a print?

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Shingster

I'm confused by this statement, are you saying that TLE Films scanned the negative and didn't bother to master it to match a print?

Correct, they didn’t replicate the look achieved by using a Technicolor by-pass process. That’s why the colors in the film look so highly saturated, like old Technicolor Hollywood films. The Synapse got that right. The TLE version replicates the colors achieved by lighting and art direction, but it is missing the extra push of the colors achieved by the photochemical printing process Tovoli used.

There are many low budget horror films which got shot with far less attention to their visual design than Suspiria and I’ve seen people up in arms here over minor discrepancies in color or contrast. I can’t think of many films where as much care has been taken with the color schemes and look as Suspiria and the film truly looks like nothing else. It doesn’t look like a 70s film because it was processed via a technology which got used three decades before. So I don’t understand anybody who would accept anything less than the most accurate restoration possible.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

Correct, they didn’t replicate the look achieved by using a Technicolor by-pass process. That’s why the colors in the film look so highly saturated, like old Technicolor Hollywood films. The Synapse got that right, the TLE version didn’t .

That isn't correct actually. They did reference a print

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

To clarify (again):
With regard to the restoration we made on behalf of the film's owner the top priority was to preserve the original image creation using not only decades-long experience with the various color palettes and processes but also - IMPORTANT - reference materials, chiefly in this case a 35mm Technicolor Dye Transfer Master Positive Reference Print made as a guideline for the lab and signed off prior to duplication to make the regular prints.

Interestingly, the 3 regular prints we also cross-checked were pretty close to that reference material, so the quality was very good. Luciano Tovoli was quoted here several times as well, with explanations regarding his intentions that match what is on the IB Tech Dye Transfer reference (and closely also the regular prints we had). For preservation, our job was to precisely restore an accurate representation of the film. In this scene, the wall is salmon, the design is beautifully dream worldish with the fish as "matching decor". Attached is an image of the QCd master (bottom) which differs somewhat from the Italian Blu-ray encode (top). It is a bit to magenta, greens are a bit too dark; resolution is not as resolved as should/could be and gamma and gradation are also a bit off.

Anyway, as to why the other version differ so dramatically: This is obviously a subjective choice and to the liking of the people who made those respective masters. I am sure there are people who like these better to their personal taste - that is perfectly alright. Life is full of choices. Again, this boils down to personal preference rather than reflecting the original.

Our job was, to restore and preserve the original strictly based on signed off references . It is, if you will, an exact replica so that people now as well as in the future will know, what the original looked like. That is why I said in the other thread that I do not see this as a "competition". It is very sad to see that some see it and want to see it this way. It is nonsense for several reasons.

Also this

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

Then, in post-production, the film was printed using the three-strip Technicolor imbibition process that had lent the 1939 Wizard of Oz it's memorable color palette.


In that, the TCM article is unfortunately inaccurate. The dye transfer process is different and not tied (as it is an actual printing step) to the three-strip process. It also (and very effectively) continued "its life" using Eastman pre-print materials as basis, when the actual three-strip Technicolor process (filming and protecting with three elements) was long discontinued. It merely had its origins with the three-strip process.

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

That isn't correct actually. They did reference a print



Also this

I’ve read all of that when it was first posted and if they really did, then they certainly got it wrong. It has none of the glow and pop an old Technicolor movie like The Wizard of Oz has. The transfer has come in for a lot of criticism has been rejected by Tovoli, so of course they will try and justify their choices. These things aren’t as subjective as Thorsten Kaiser claims.

Also, I’ve not to make the mistake to claim that Suspiria has been shot on three strip Technicolor, I know that it hasn’t. But I also know what a by-pass print looks like, being old enough to have studied film-making in pre-digital times and having learned how to print film. It too achives a highly saturated image, which comes close to a vintage Technicolor look.

[Shingster]

And you believe the Anchor Bay DVD did?

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Shingster

And you believe the Anchor Bay DVD did?

It was more saturated and had a higher contrast than the TLE transfer, but its limitations are down to DVD as a format where contrasting colors bleed when pushed to far and where details get lost. They did as good a job as possible within those limitations at the time.

[HumanMedia]

Cmon Synapse - ship it!

[Shingster]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

It was more saturated and had a higher contrast than the TLE transfer, but its limitations are down to DVD as a format where contrasting colors bleed when pushed to far and where details get lost. They did as good a job as possible within those limitations at the time.

How many grabs here are more saturated on the DVD? One? Two?, maybe three?

Also, in what way are the colours here failing to "pop":

[Show spoiler]

I've always thought one of the biggest weaknesses of the TLEFilms is that it's not very punchy, but the saturation is clearly deeper than any DVD release of the film, it's just a bit too flat overall in terms of contrast/brightness. Surprised no BD distributor has decided to boost it a little for home-video viewing.

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Shingster

How many grabs here are more saturated on the DVD? One? Two?, maybe three?

Also, in what way are the colours here failing to "pop":

[Show spoiler]

I've always thought one of the biggest weaknesses of the TLEFilms is that it's not very punchy, but the saturation is clearly deeper than any DVD release of the film, it's just a bit too flat overall in terms of contrast/brightness. Surprised no BD distributor has decided to boost it a little for home-video viewing.

I‘ve already said you can’t really compare the two due to the inferior way DVD handles highly saturated color. You can’t go higher with the saturation on DVD because colors start to bleed. Also, not every single shot in Suspiria is cranked up to the max as not everything is lit that way. I’ve watched the whole of the Anchorbay DVD several times, not just screencaps and for the format it conveys the film as well as possible. Have you not seen the Synapse BD caps ? That’s what you should compare the TLE disc to, not to a DVD.