Will Samsung and Panasonic succumb to the Dark Side

[TheProf89]

I put my eggs in the HDR10 basket for now. I have a Samsung 4K tv on the way. I am newer to this and hear that DV has a better quality. Both look incredible and if you have HDR10 you won't miss what you don't have. Then again when VHS vs Beta, Beta had the superior picture but VHS won out there.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this but HDR10 is more open source whereas DV is more proprietary. That makes me root for HDR10 more. Either way though I cannot wait to start collecting 4K UHD's and if DV wins out then by the time it does tv's will have gone down enough for me to buy a 2nd one.

[Staying Salty]

https://www.techhive.com/article/323...h-is-best.html

After viewing lots of content on lots of HDR10 and Dolby Vision TVs since our previous story on this topic, we’ve found that Dolby Vision delivers a vastly superior picture, with richer color, more detail in the light and dark areas of scenes, and far better contrast.

The problem for Samsung, which is the only major vendor in the U.S. market that doesn’t support Dolby Vision, is that while HDR10+ is free and openly available to everyone, Dolby has a huge head start. Dolby also has a prominent and generally respected name, and it can provide all sorts of support and infrastructure that HDR10+, which is relying on a community of developers, can’t match. It’s tough to envision HDR10+ capturing mindshare or competing well in the market any time soon.

[Staying Salty]

http://www.techradar.com/news/netfli...-in-the-future

"We do already support HDR10, not the HDR10+ variant, there’s a possibility we’ll support that in the future but it’s not something that’s on our roadmap at the moment," he said, when asked whether the company was open to these other formats…"Our aim is to not necesserily dictate your choice as a consumer but rather embrace it, and whichever technology you choose to buy we want to give you the best picture we can on that," Smith concluded.

The more content delivered in dynamic metadata formats, the more likely that a manufacturer will support all those formats. This would give them a completive advantage.

[Aidenag]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

https://www.techhive.com/article/323...h-is-best.html

At first i thought the differences were small, even said as much on first page of this thread. But after spending more time with a wider range of content, im of the same opinion now as that article, the comparison between hdr10 and dv is not even close. Dv is far superior, to a point im actually not buying much hdr10 content now as most are underwhelming compared to dolby vision. Might be because im rockin oled, and hdr10 likes the higher nits to make up for its shortcoming, but yeah im really hopin samsung gives in and lets the better format win now.

And yeah, i dont see hdr10+ making it either. Too many problems and too late in the game.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Aidenag

And yeah, i dont see hdr10+ making it either. Too many problems and too late in the game.

How about recent news concerning if Disney buys most of 20th century fox? Here in the states during the holiday season, all you got is Samsung pitching displays under QLED banner, there is no discussion about HDR10+ in recent news accept what’s posted from Netflix might consider supporting HDR10+. So, LG made a similar statement mid year about they might support it, if it catches on. Panasonic except for UHD BD players is absent from U.S. marketplace. All those things add up to a borderline viable business collation IMHO.

[JohnAV]

Disney Makes $52.4 Billion Deal for 21st Century Fox in Big Bet on Streaming - NY Times

The Walt Disney Company said on Thursday that it had reached a deal to buy most of the assets of 21st Century Fox, the conglomerate controlled by Rupert Murdoch, in an all-stock transaction valued at roughly $52.4 billion.

Not included in the acquisition: Fox News, the Fox broadcast network and the FS1 sports cable channel. Mr. Murdoch said he would spin those businesses and a handful of other properties, including the 20th Century Fox lot in Hollywood, which Disney is not buying, into a newly listed company.

[CBCstillmatic]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Disney Makes $52.4 Billion Deal for 21st Century Fox in Big Bet on Streaming - NY Times

The Walt Disney Company said on Thursday that it had reached a deal to buy most of the assets of 21st Century Fox, the conglomerate controlled by Rupert Murdoch, in an all-stock transaction valued at roughly $52.4 billion.

Not included in the acquisition: Fox News, the Fox broadcast network and the FS1 sports cable channel. Mr. Murdoch said he would spin those businesses and a handful of other properties, including the 20th Century Fox lot in Hollywood, which Disney is not buying, into a newly listed company.

So I wonder what this means for HDR10+. Wasn't Fox the only major studio behind HDR10+? Is Disney not a supporter of Dolby Vision? Granted none of their UHD discs have DV, could Disney switch to HDR10+ support or is this more likely a blow to getting HDR10+ on disc and players? Interesting

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Disney Makes $52.4 Billion Deal for 21st Century Fox in Big Bet on Streaming - NY Times

The Walt Disney Company said on Thursday that it had reached a deal to buy most of the assets of 21st Century Fox, the conglomerate controlled by Rupert Murdoch, in an all-stock transaction valued at roughly $52.4 billion.

Not included in the acquisition: Fox News, the Fox broadcast network and the FS1 sports cable channel. Mr. Murdoch said he would spin those businesses and a handful of other properties, including the 20th Century Fox lot in Hollywood, which Disney is not buying, into a newly listed company.

I mean who in the first place would WANT to acquire Fox news

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by CBCstillmatic

So I wonder what this means for HDR10+. Wasn't Fox the only major studio behind HDR10+? Is Disney not a supporter of Dolby Vision? Granted none of their UHD discs have DV, could Disney switch to HDR10+ support or is this more likely a blow to getting HDR10+ on disc and players? Interesting

Interesting times Yes.

AVS had a thread published yesterday Dec 13th entitled Amazon Streams HDR10+ to 2017 Samsung UHD TVs.

Owners of 2017 Samsung UHD TVs with access to Amazon Prime Video can now enjoy the enhanced HDR image quality that HDR10+ provides, thanks to its inclusion and use of dynamic metadata. As of today (December 13, 2017) Amazon is offering “hundreds of hours” of programming to stream in the new format.

Prime Originals that get the HDR10+ treatment include The Grand Tour, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Jean-Claude Van Johnson, The Tick and The Man in the High Castle.
---------------------
Currently, support for HDR10+ consists Amazon’s Prime launch, 20th Century Fox’s commitment to the format, Samsung, and Panasonic. Although spearheaded by Samsung, HDR10+ is presented as an open format. I expect to see and hear more about this HDR format at CES 2018. And even before that happens, I hope to perform some sort of meaningful comparison between good ole’ HDR10 4K streaming—with its static metadata—and HDR10+ streaming.

Notice only 2017 Samsung TV's involved - the author said this move was not announced

First things first... since Samsung did not actually announce this (the info came from The Verge and some other publications) I have contacted the company to see what info I can get.

I think Samsung and Amazon are trying get this accomplished before all the other marketplace factors upset their plans.

• Disney will become a major streaming competitor to Amazon Prime. When they acquire 20th Century Fox assets a lot of keys to the vault will belong to them.
• Netflix is really ramping up other content from Lionscape, Sony, and others to substitute Disney move.
• Apple has always had a strong relationship with Disney and they are backing Dolby Vision.
• Google is ticked with amazon and yanking their YouTube content away from Amazon. I wouldn't be surprised if Google and Apple get more chummy.
• Target is buying Alabama-based, same-day delivery service Shipt for $550 million to directly compete with Amazon.

Shipt has a network of more than 20,000 personal shoppers delivering goods in more than 72 markets around the country.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by cbcstillmatic

so i wonder what this means for hdr10+. Wasn't fox the only major studio behind hdr10+?
fox was supposed to provide content for streaming and eventually disc releases as well. What will happen now is all conjecture at the moment. Amazon was to provide a streaming platform, as is one other i can't recall (i believe),


is disney not a supporter of dolby vision?
streaming, so far yes. Disc support is supposed to be coming.

granted none of their uhd discs have dv, could disney switch to hdr10+ support or is this more likely a blow to getting hdr10+ on disc and players? Interesting.
disney's view of hdr10+ is unknown so far. Some think their commitment to dv will preclude any support for 10+, but again it's all conjecture right now. Depending on hardware support for dv on 2018 models and pricing thereof, dv could expand further than it has in 2017, or we could also just keep slogging along with slow gains.

No idea what's going on with my reply edits, the text editor keeps changing my UPPER case to lower case when I hit save. SO BIZARRE.
...

[Staying Salty]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#6badc6a555eb

Plus, so Samsung’s argument goes, HDR10+ leaves more room than Dolby Vision for TV manufacturers to optimize the image for each specific TV screen.

My personal opinion is this is the main reason Samsung developed HDR10+, to differentiate their TVs. Dolby has stated that they strive for the most accurate picture. There are people who do not like a calibrated picture. Many people like the Vivid modes etc. Our eyes are drawn to the most colorful displays in stores. With HDR10+ Samsung and Panasonic can tune the picture to set their displays apart from the other manufactures. Of course Sony is somewhat like this, but they went with Dolby Vision.

Now Dolby Vison does have 12 bit, 4.2.2 and ICtCp going for it in future displays to provide even a better picture.

[Show spoiler] I think the TVs should have a “MY Dolby Vision” mode which allows any and all changes. This way the customer can make the perfect Dolby Vision Picture.

I am somewhat serious.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#f3df21a55ebc

My personal opinion is this is the main reason Samsung developed HDR10+, to differentiate their TVs. Dolby has stated that they strive for the most accurate picture. There are people who do not like a calibrated picture. Many people like the Vivid modes etc. Our eyes are drawn to the most colorful displays in stores. With HDR10+ Samsung and Panasonic can tune the picture to set their displays apart from the other manufactures. Of course Sony is somewhat like this, but they went with Dolby Vision.

Now Dolby Vison does have 12 bit, 4.2.2 and ICtCp going for it in future displays to provide even a better picture.

[Show spoiler] I think the TVs should have a “MY Dolby Vision” mode which allows any and all changes. This way the customer can make the perfect Dolby Vision Picture.

I am somewhat serious.

You know........

You probably have hit on a point that keeps coming up when we read newbies comment on HDR looks all wrong, or BD looks the same as or better than their new 4K HDR disc for (pick some movie name here). OR why are there black bars on the screen?

I'm afraid you are right, we'll probably never get all these folks into the HDR & WCG fold with properly mapped or calibrated displays, I swear some of the goofiness is already wearing me down a little.

Although there seem to be a lot of folks who are still wowed by DV on streaming, and if it stays locked down, they may stay in the fold. And these are all from manfs of either lower nits sets, or lower priced value HDR/DV displays. Can't wait to see if DV makes a discernible difference on my Sony Z.

(you know, that reminds me to hop on over to the Sony thread, why haven't they announced yet?)

[Staying Salty]

https://www.androidheadlines.com/201...ot-matter.html

Going into 2018, the HDR competition is definitely much fiercer (since it finally exists) but Dolby Vision’s position is now stronger than ever as the standard isn’t just the go-to HDR solution for Hollywood – it’s the only solution. On the other hand, Samsung is largely counting on the billions of dollars Amazon is pouring into original production to promote HDR10+ but with 20th Century Fox being its only truly established content partner (who also co-developed the standard with Panasonic), its chances of making the world’s largest filmmaking industry embrace its technology remain questionable.

While Samsung has an advantage in terms of accessibility given how HDR10+ is free for device manufacturers and content creators, that doesn’t mean much when its target audience are Hollywood heavyweights. Dolby’s status in the industry coupled with nearly limitless resources of its clients means that Samsung must do much better than just say “it’s free” when trying to convince filmmakers to adopt HDR10+, not to mention that the South Korean firm is also at a disadvantage in terms of support it can offer. To have any hopes of seriously challenging for HDR dominance, Samsung needs to deliver a convincingly superior solution and while HDR10+ can certainly go toe-to-toe with Dolby Vision in most aspects, it doesn’t clearly surpass it in any. In fact, even though HDR10+ is a massive upgrade over its predecessor, it’s still a 10-bit standard, meaning its colors can’t be more accurate than the ones delivered by Dolby’s 12-bit solution even in theory.

The color depth argument isn’t as important right now since no consumer-ready television set is capable of outputting 12-bit colors but that technology is already close to commercialization and it shouldn’t be long until you’ll be able to get it in your living room, after which Dolby Vision is likely to clearly surpass HDR10+ in terms of image quality. Dolby claims the standard does so even now as it downsamples processed 12-bit data to a 10-bit output in a manner that’s supposedly more accurate than native 10-bit computing, though you’d be hard-pressed to actually see that difference. However, once 12-bit TVs become a commercial reality, Dolby’s marketing will be able to drop such claims and let the image do the talking, and nothing it says will be good news for HDR10+.

Therefore, your future TV choice probably won’t come down to whether to opt for a Dolby Vision or HDR10+ device but whether to pay extra for one that’s compatible with both technologies or settle for just Samsung‘s standard.

The answer is but I don't believe you will have to pay more than a few dollars.

[Staying Salty]

http://www.techradar.com/news/tv-tec...n-in-your-home

With increasing brightness comes an increased need for color bit depth.

Everyone’s experienced ‘color banding’, that phenomenon where you can see an abrupt shift in color rather than a gradual transition. Look at a heavily compressed jpeg image to see what we’re talking about.

As sets get brighter, color banding becomes more of a problem, and so as we start to approach the brightness limits of Dolby Vision, the need to move to 12-bit panels becomes even more pronounced.

Thankfully, the Dolby Vision standard is already designed for 12-bit displays, it’s just that unfortunately there aren’t any televisions out there today that are built with 12-bit capable panels.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

The most direct and first impact will be on players because their numbers are so small compared to displays.

Originally Posted by DanBa

A step in the right direction:
Panasonic's flagship 2018 Ultra HD Blu-ray player supports Dolby Vision & HDR10+.
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1515296844

Samsung/Panasonic display/player = 4 devices.
Panasonic player supporting Dolby Vision = one fourth of that total

Good news for us who strive for the best picture we can afford.

[agoofykindasuperman]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Samsung/Panasonic display/player = 4 devices.
Panasonic player supporting Dolby Vision = one fourth of that total

Good news for us who strive for the best picture we can afford.

I have an LG OLED with Dolby Vision, but when I bought it back in 2016, I paired it with the Panasonic UB900 since it was the best (and one of the only) 4K players on the market.

Now it being the 900 which is higher than 820, I'm hoping they don't abandon their "flagship"" model and will patch it with a DV firmware update. I would really prefer not having to buy another expensive player again...

I'm on a single income Panasonic! Hear me roar!

[stargazeruk]

Originally Posted by agoofykindasuperman

I have an LG OLED with Dolby Vision, but when I bought it back in 2016, I paired it with the Panasonic UB900 since it was the best (and one of the only) 4K players on the market.

Now it being the 900 which is higher than 820, I'm hoping they don't abandon their "flagship"" model and will patch it with a DV firmware update. I would really prefer not having to buy another expensive player again...

I'm on a single income Panasonic! Hear me roar!

The 900 won't get Dolby vision. It does not support it unfortunately.

This will be the year of Dolby vision players. Good to see Panasonic and Sony get on board.

I not seen any news on samsung UHD players but hope they for UHD players have added Dolby Vision support. Fingers crossed.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by stargazeruk

The 900 won't get Dolby vision. It does not support it unfortunately.

...
I not seen any news on samsung UHD players but hope they for UHD players have added Dolby Vision support. Fingers crossed.

Samsung's game plan is HDR10+, they invented it so they NEVER, NEVER, NEVER have to pay DV royalties to Dolby.

[stargazeruk]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Samsung's game plan is HDR10+, they invented it so they NEVER, NEVER, NEVER have to pay DV royalties to Dolby.

True. I did hope they would only allow their player to have it. I don't really give a toss about their TVs if they get it or not.

I saw Sony has a new UHD player so that might be one to get. The x700 I seen being sold at around £270 and that's a good price for a new player. Be interesting to see what the Panasonic retails at. I might get that but could wait for the price to drop and see if it goes down in the Easter sales.

I doubt my OLEDE6 will see a HDR10+ firmware so HDR10+ won't make a difference to me unless Panasonic offers a HDR10+ to Dolby Vision conversion and then that can be a deal breaker on the player but doubt it.

Just glad that Sony and Panasonic are offering the extra choice. The LG well was crap and OPPO for me was to much.

[bruceames]

I'm not upgrading for 2-3 more years, so too far out to see what my choices will be. One thing for sure is that it's going to have a lot of nit power so all my current HDR10 stuff will look great on it (as it does now on my Sony 940C). If both HDR10+ and DV are common on discs by then, I'll make sure to get a compatible display. It's too early to tell which (or both) will be common on disc in 2-3 years, or if one of them will be mainly used on streaming and the other on disc (or if only one survives (in that case it would likely be DV).