Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Hey Steedeel, good to hear from you I thought you were gone. You still don't see the Light, Digital HD is doing fine and since MA the Movie Collection is off the Sheets. Discs are in trouble, and I say UHD Discs are the last format. Everything is going on Servers, and Networks are The Future. Discs will be around for a while, but only in Niche Markets. Networks and Servers are taking over, Bitcoin has proven this. The need for Physical is becoming a thing of the past. We live in a time of instant gratification, and hunting and playing Discs is just becoming Ancient.

Not to drag things too far off topic (and I don't want to start some huge back and forth over this due to how off topic it is), but people constantly expecting instant gratification - not just in regards to watching movies and TV, but in general these days, especially younger people who have been raised with it and have never known any different, isn't exactly proving to be a good thing for the future of society as a whole. This video offers some really good food for thought in that regard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hER0Qp6QJNU&t=1s

[randian]

Originally Posted by jhrobinson

But those who do buy books tend to buy physical books. That is why ebook sales have leveled off while physical book sales are increasing.

That, and stupid ebook pricing. ebooks are frequently priced nearly as high or higher than the physical book because publishers fear they won't sell their physical books otherwise. Black Library is one of the worst offenders, their ebooks are as much as 50% higher in price than the physical, series bundles discounts are ok but hardly enticing, and they don't offer bundles at all for recent (< 4 years old) titles in a series. I bet they'd make a lot more profit selling at $5 a title than $15.

[maverick22]

I have been collecting physical discs for years! The cases/shelves take up a lot of room, and it's getting expensive (went from DVD to blu-ray, steelbooks, 4k equipment, blu-ray to UHD, UHD steelbooks, it just goes on). As much as I love it, my wife loves the cheaper option of buying a code from someone here and not taking up space.

However, I'm a little skeptical of a "digital collection." Say the Internet goes out, you're screwed. I don't know why, I just also have my doubts about my digital library actually still being available for the long haul (say 10 years).

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by maverick22

I have been collecting physical discs for years! The cases/shelves take up a lot of room, and it's getting expensive (went from DVD to blu-ray, steelbooks, 4k equipment, blu-ray to UHD, UHD steelbooks, it just goes on). As much as I love it, my wife loves the cheaper option of buying a code from someone here and not taking up space.

However, I'm a little skeptical of a "digital collection." Say the Internet goes out, you're screwed. I don't know why, I just also have my doubts about my digital library actually still being available for the long haul (say 10 years).

Nothing is Forever we all have a Life Time, say the Power goes out you're screwed too. Networks and Servers are The Future, for the Collectors I'm sure Discs will be around for a long time.....For a Price!

[Vilya]

My internet goes out 20 times for every time my power goes out once. Guess which one gets restored quicker, too? My electricity almost always. My electric utility is reliable; my ISP is flakier than a Kellogg's factory. My ISP also has the unmitigated gall to raise its prices every year; I will not be held hostage by them to watch movies I pretend that I own. Content on someone else's server is not mine; it has to be in my actual possession for me to consider it owned.

I still maintain that discs will survive and so long as they do, I will be content. I can still get 3D blu-rays, albeit mostly from importing; they have even managed to survive this competitive and cluttered landscape. The CD has survived digital and so will blu-rays. I flat do not care which is dominant so long as my preferred option to own a hard copy remains.

I got rid of cable in 2013; I do not miss it at all. As for streaming services, I have Amazon Prime, but only because it is part of my membership that gives me that nice free two-day shipping on all of those discs I keep finding more and more of to add to my collection.

I will add Netflix soon to watch Stranger Things season 2, but then I will likely get bored of Netflix quick and cancel it within the free one month trial period. I have done this a few times with streaming services, effectively paying them next to nothing overall.

[huskersports]

I'm changing the way I buy Blu-rays, as far as Universal Studios titles are concerned. I don't want or need the DVD half of the combo packs. So, going forward, I'm gonna buy the title on VUDU or Movies Anywhere, and wait for the re-release of the title (without the DVD) in a year or 2. Universal does this like clockwork. I just bought Smokey and the Bandit for super-cheap a month ago, and a week later, I see that it's being re-released without the DVD in February 2018. Unless it's a steelbook or bonus disc-type situation. That would be the only exception. Other studios' titles? If the same bonus material is available on VUDU as is on the disc, I'll just buy the digital and wait for the price drop on the physical disc. Commentaries (VUDU never seems to offer that bonus feature) are usually the reason I buy physical discs anymore, unless I really like the movie and have to get it on day 1.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by huskersports

I'm changing the way I buy Blu-rays, as far as Universal Studios titles are concerned. I don't want or need the DVD half of the combo packs. So, going forward, I'm gonna buy the title on VUDU or Movies Anywhere, and wait for the re-release of the title (without the DVD) in a year or 2. Universal does this like clockwork. I just bought Smokey and the Bandit for super-cheap a month ago, and a week later, I see that it's being re-released without the DVD in February 2018. Unless it's a steelbook or bonus disc-type situation. That would be the only exception. Other studios' titles? If the same bonus material is available on VUDU as is on the disc, I'll just buy the digital and wait for the price drop on the physical disc. Commentaries (VUDU never seems to offer that bonus feature) are usually the reason I buy physical discs anymore, unless I really like the movie and have to get it on day 1.

What difference does it really make if it comes with a DVD or not? It's one thing if there's a major price difference or something (which more often than not, there isn't).

You just said that you got Smokey and the Bandit super-cheap a month ago. It sounds like the price was right. So what if there is an extra disc in the case that you won't use? It's not hurting anything being there, and 1 to 3 disc cases are generally the same size, so it is taking up no more shelf space than the Blu-Ray only version would.

It just seems really odd that when all other things are essentially equal, and you are purposely double dipping by buying these movies both digitally and physical through separate purchases, that you would go out of your way just to avoid having an extra disc that isn't harming anything by being there.

What's even more odd is that if it is the 40th anniversary edition of Smokey and the Bandit that you got, it comes with the Blu-Ray, DVD, and Digital copy. Two out of the three of those you apparently want, and you get them all for one price in the same package. But instead going forward for other movies released in similar manners, you are planning to buy the digital version and then later buy it again physically just to not get a DVD for some reason (apparently even if the Blu-Ray / DVD pack includes the digital copy). It doesn't sound like this plan is really going to save you much money, and will probably cost you more - at least in instances where the combo pack includes the digital version anyway.

In looking up these Smokey and the Bandit releases, while the prices could change, right now if buying or preordering directly through Amazon, the new release without the DVD is actually slightly more expensive than the one with it. And the packaging looks the same with the exception of the "+DVD" in the blue bar on the top of the cover art stating what formats are included. So it's not even like this is a situation where there's significantly different artwork or packaging type that you might have a preference for.

[Vilya]

From visiting the always informative "Home Video Sales Thread" on this site; it indicates that the real growth in digital lies with the "all you can eat" streaming services, not with those pretending that access to a digital copy constitutes ownership.

Electronic sell thru of digital grew 5.74% compared to 31.05% for subscription services. People want the buffet not the single entree.

"Consumers in 2017 spent an estimated $2.15 billion on the electronic purchase of movies and other filmed content, up nearly 6%"

"Spending on discs was down 14.1%, to an estimated $4.7 billion."

While spending on disc is undeniably down, those wanting to purchase a movie spent more than twice as much on discs than they did on digital copies.

"Subscription streaming is now about half of all "home entertainment" revenue, showing how ridiculous it's becoming to include that category in an age where the home video market is clearly in decline."

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...me+media+sales

Posts #744, 746

Discs will remain an option for those who want to really own a tangible hard copy of a film and not just access to a copy, provided they continue to pay their internet service's ever increasing fees, located on some remote server that they have zero control over.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Hey Steedeel, good to hear from you I thought you were gone. You still don't see the Light, Digital HD is doing fine and since MA the Movie Collection is off the Sheets. Discs are in trouble, and I say UHD Discs are the last format. Everything is going on Servers, and Networks are The Future. Discs will be around for a while, but only in Niche Markets. Networks and Servers are taking over, Bitcoin has proven this. The need for Physical is becoming a thing of the past. We live in a time of instant gratification, and hunting and playing Discs is just becoming Ancient.

They said that about Vinyl and books. I also think you are underestimating human nature. The need to own stuff and have that tactile relationship with their things. I personally believe that is the reason behind books winning out. I honestly do.

People like yourself have been declaring disc dead for years. If I had listened in the past I wouldn’t have had blu-ray quality picture and audio and enjoyed 600+ films For the past 11/12 years. Priceless to me.
I see another 15-20 years of collecting at the very least and that is fine. I pay for quality not the luxury of sitting on my arse a extra few minutes before the film. All good things in life require a little time.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

From visiting the always informative "Home Video Sales Thread" on this site; it indicates that the real growth in digital lies with the "all you can eat" streaming services, not those pretending that access to a digital copy constitutes ownership.

Electronic sell thru of digital grew 5.74% compared to 31.05% for subscription services. People want the buffet not the single entree.

"Consumers in 2017 spent an estimated $2.15 billion on the electronic purchase of movies and other filmed content, up nearly 6%"

"Spending on discs was down 14.1%, to an estimated $4.7 billion."

While spending on disc is undeniably down, those wanting to purchase a movie spent more than twice as much on discs than they did on digital copies.

"Subscription streaming is now about half of all "home entertainment" revenue, showing how ridiculous it's becoming to include that category in an age where the home video market is clearly in decline."

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...me+media+sales

Posts #744, 746

Discs will remain an option for those who want to really own a tangible hard copy of a film and not just access to a copy, provided they continue to pay their internet service's ever increasing fees, located on some remote server that they have zero control over.

The trend has been very obvious for some time. Digital HD is the MP3 of this generation. Very very few people download songs these days. People’s collections are just sitting idle collecting digital dust.

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by jhrobinson

Quick point: the only reason why U.S. Box Office sales in 2016 were higher than 2015 was because of an increase in the price per ticket. In 2017, that trick stopped working.

Ticket prices have risen annually and 2016 was nothing different.

2017: $8.90 (2.89%)
2016: $8.65 (2.61%)
2015: $8.43 (3.18%)
2014: $8.17 (0.49%)
2013: $8.13 (2.14%)
2012: $7.96 (0.38%)
2011: $7.93 (0.51%)
2010: $7.89 (5.20%)
2009: $7.50 (4.46%)
2008: $7.18 (4.36%)
2007: $6.88 (5.04%)
2006: $6.55 (2.18%)
2005: $6.41 (3.22%)
2004: $6.21 (2.99%)
2003: $6.03 (3.79%)
2002: $5.81 (2.65%)
2001: $5.66 (5.01%)
2000: $5.39 (6.10%)
1999: $5.08 (8.32%)
1998: $4.69 (2.18%)
1997: $4.59 (3.85%)
1996: $4.42 (1.61%)

Source: Domestic Movie Theatrical Market Summary 1995 to 2018

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Digital HD is the MP3 of this generation. Very very few people download songs these days.

Yeah, there's significant difference though: Netflix et al. don't have new releases and only a very limited (and constantly changing) selection of catalog titles. Maybe one day there will be a movie equivalent to Spotify, but today it doesn't exist.

[isu4me]

I like the convenience of digital, it's easy to go out to Vudu, iTunes, etc and pick up what you want. It's very good if we decide last minute that the wife and I or the family wants to watch X movie or show. I like that it does not take up space on the shelf, or that I don't have to hunt if I want to put that disk in.
However, where I find digital is failing (for me personally) is in the audio. I think digital HD/UHD is very good in terms of video quality (yes it's not as good as blu ray/UHD disk, but a lot of times unless you are doing an A/B comparison, a lot you wouldn't notice or miss). However, the audio quality is still lacking, and I consider audio just as important.
I have spent more then a few dollars in a quality sound system with Dolby atoms setup. I'm sure there are people who have a lot more invested then I, but I know I've spent a lot more then the average person. Dolby Digital or Dolby Digital Plus just does not have the punch and range that disks have, and I don't fully understand why they can't. Studios seem to be fine with increasing file sizes for digital HD and UHD, however even with UHD they can't increase the file a little more (2-3 GB) for HD audio?
I run a Plex server so that I have access to all my movies regardless of what TV we're on. Therefore I do rip the blu ray disks I own to MP4 files that are DD as well (with Handbrake). However while my rips are usually very close in size to Vudu or iTunes size, the fact that I mastered from HD audio, all my movies have way better audio then the same file streamed (or downloaded) from iTunes or Vudu.
When Digital HD catches up with audio (or at very least makes a significant improvement) then I may see about switching to digital only. I'm looking mainly at iTunes as I use apple TV's through the house, but Vudu is no different (nor amazon or google). My rips from blu ray are vastly superior to most digital files for very much the same size file in most cases. Therefore I usually only purchase tv shows, or movies where the audio isn't as important to begin with (a lot of drama's/comedy's or older catalog type movies).
Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The trend has been very obvious for some time. Digital HD is the MP3 of this generation. Very very few people download songs these days. People’s collections are just sitting idle collecting digital dust.

If I get all the music I owned (CD, MP3, whatever) plus even more at a cheap subscription price, what point are you making? How does that negate MP3s? Then how does that relate to Digital HD? And then how does that relate back to physical?

You seem to cheer the idea of Digital HD being diminished but that ain't gonna help the sales of Blu-ray. Blu-ray sales were down this year, right? What happened to all that talk about how physical sales being down were due to DVD?

Blu-rays were about $1.89B in 2017 and shrinking. EST was $2.15B and growing. It wouldn't surprise me if Digital HD/UHD in the U.S. outsells Blu-rays in the next few years.

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by isu4me

However while my rips are usually very close in size to Vudu or iTunes size, the fact that I mastered from HD audio, all my movies have way better audio then the same file streamed (or downloaded) from iTunes or Vudu.

I am sure that the audio coming from digital providers came from the best source possible - the studios themselves. What they've compressed it to may not equal what you're compressing to but they're certainly starting from a lossless or close to lossless source. That said, I can't argue whether your ripped and compressed audio sounds better than what Apple or Vudu offer. And personally every year that passes is one less reason for me to go back to a better audio setup. Vision can be improved with glasses or surgery but ears, well, nobody's hearing gets better with age.

[Vilya]

It appears that 4K UHD discs are doing quite well and that pleases me.

"UHD Blu-ray disc sales are expected to increase 8-fold over 2016, according to figures shared with FlatpanelsHD by Telly Kim, Executive Director, New Technology Marketing at Warner Bros, and Spokesperson for the BDA. 20 million discs were sold last year.

Also, UHD disc player sales are up 133% so far in 2017, with major brands such as LG, Microsoft, Oppo, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung, and Sony onboard. Over 300,000 players were sold in 2016."

"Ultra HD Blu-ray, both hardware and software, is experiencing strong double and triple digit growth,” said BDA. “All major Hollywood studios, and many local studios, are now publishing content on Ultra HD Blu-ray.”

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1505110408

Digital is an especially poor choice for 4K viewing; it is heavily compressed, blows through people's data caps, and many people can not stream it at all due to the limitations of their ISP.

"The video quality of a UHD Blu-ray (played on Panasonic's excellent DMP-UB900 Ultra HD Blu-ray player) is leaps and bounds over 4K streaming and regular Blu-ray."

"Sound quality: This is one area where streaming loses out rather badly."

https://www.whathifi.com/features/4k...ray-which-best

As I have said before, I do not care which outsells the other, so long as physical remains an option and remain it will. Explosive growth in 4K UHD disc and 4K UHD player sales only helps physical media.

[isu4me]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

I am sure that the audio coming from digital providers came from the best source possible - the studios themselves. What they've compressed it to may not equal what you're compressing to but they're certainly starting from a lossless or close to lossless source. That said, I can't argue whether your ripped and compressed audio sounds better than what Apple or Vudu offer. And personally every year that passes is one less reason for me to go back to a better audio setup. Vision can be improved with glasses or surgery but ears, well, nobody's hearing gets better with age.

I would agree. I did not mean to infer that I was using a superior source then what the digital file came from. However the compression or technique they are using is not helping them. While people here will have to 'take my word' that my rips have a better audio, I would hope there are other's here that, with a proper sound setup (ie not TV speakers or sound bar) would notice as big difference between iTunes/Vudu vs physical disk.
Also, yes vision has glasses, but ears have hearing aids. However I think this does show that the majority if the people feel this way ... the audio is 'good enough'. Which is why I will most likely be sticking the combo of digital and physical.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by isu4me

Therefore I do rip the blu ray disks I own to MP4 files that are DD as well (with Handbrake). However while my rips are usually very close in size to Vudu or iTunes size, the fact that I mastered from HD audio, all my movies have way better audio then the same file streamed (or downloaded) from iTunes or Vudu.

You can be sure that the iTunes/Vudu audio tracks are also mastered from a lossless source. There are multiple possible explanations for the difference:

- The studios may use different encoding parameters.

- I noticed that iTunes AC3 tracks often make aggressive use of the Dialnorm feature. This is basically metadata in AC3 track that tells your equipment at what volume the track should be played (to achieve roughly the same loudness across different content). For example, the downloaded iTunes file of Blade Runner 2049 has a Dialnorm value of -14dB, which causes it to be played back at a much lower volume than, say, a file encoded with Handbrake which doesn't set Dialnorm (equivalent to -31dB). So just turning up the volume may eliminate the difference.

- There may be some issue in the playback equipment. For example, there have been reports in other forums that the Apple TV 4 may reduce dynamic range (the ATV currently decodes all audio tracks internally). This was supposedly fixed in tvOS 10.1 though. Hopefully it'll eventually support true bitstreaming which would eliminate this potential source of error.

Anyway, as you experienced yourself with your Handbrake encodings, technically there is no reason why audio can't sound good with DD or DD+ .

[jhrobinson]

What I meant was that the increase in ticket prices couldn’t compensate for the decrease in the number of tickets sold. That “trick” (raising ticket prices to compesate for decreasing unit sales) did not work in 2017.

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

Ticket prices have risen annually and 2016 was nothing different.

2017: $8.90 (2.89%)
2016: $8.65 (2.61%)
2015: $8.43 (3.18%)
2014: $8.17 (0.49%)
2013: $8.13 (2.14%)
2012: $7.96 (0.38%)
2011: $7.93 (0.51%)
2010: $7.89 (5.20%)
2009: $7.50 (4.46%)
2008: $7.18 (4.36%)
2007: $6.88 (5.04%)
2006: $6.55 (2.18%)
2005: $6.41 (3.22%)
2004: $6.21 (2.99%)
2003: $6.03 (3.79%)
2002: $5.81 (2.65%)
2001: $5.66 (5.01%)
2000: $5.39 (6.10%)
1999: $5.08 (8.32%)
1998: $4.69 (2.18%)
1997: $4.59 (3.85%)
1996: $4.42 (1.61%)

Source: Domestic Movie Theatrical Market Summary 1995 to 2018

[Falaskan]

I'm moving towards digital, mainly because I save shelf space, they can't get scratched or stolen, and if you have good enough internet, the difference between 4K streaming and 4K on disc is normally negligible. Digital copies are a steal on this site, so I save a lot of money too.

I will still buy physical formats for movies I consider must have's.