"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Bobby Henderson]

What about television shows produced on film? Are all of those shot 24fps or are some, most or all filmed at 30fps?

On the video side of things in HD television production it is typically grounded in the 720p/60 or 1080i/60 standards so something like 1080p/30 wouldn't figure into that.

For the growing, varied uses of HDTV monitors it would seem nice if the manufacturers would make monitors that could adjust a larger variety of frame rates. We have 1080p/24 stuff on Blu-ray. Video games need high refresh rates. So do computer connections. And 3D may require very rapid refresh rates (like 240Hz).

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

What about television shows produced on film? Are all of those shot 24fps or are some, most or all filmed at 30fps?

On the video side of things in HD television production it is typically grounded in the 720p/60 or 1080i/60 standards so something like 1080p/30 wouldn't figure into that.

For the growing, varied uses of HDTV monitors it would seem nice if the manufacturers would make monitors that could adjust a larger variety of frame rates. We have 1080p/24 stuff on Blu-ray. Video games need high refresh rates. So do computer connections. And 3D may require very rapid refresh rates (like 240Hz).

In most territories except (most notably) Europe the productions for TV (be it series or otherwise) were usually filmed 24f/sec on either 16mm/Super16mm or 35mm/Super35mm stocks. In "NTSC countries" such as the U.S., Canada, and Japan the workflow was then to transfer the material to tape @59.94i 525 NTSC either non-drop frame (for editing and the production of S FX to be included later) or drop frame (final master) for delivery to TV stations. Early HD masters were made 59.94i 1080 (such as with HD-D5 and HDCAM in the late 90s and early 2000s); in the HD realm today, the final broadcast delivery masters are derived from 23.976p(sf) 1080 transfer masters which then are cross-converted to 59.94i 1080 for 1080i broadcasters such as HDNet or to 59.94p 720 for 720 broadcasters such as ABC.

In Europe, TV productions were often filmed 25f/sec in order to achieve an easier workflow re: audio and delivery. Since the PAL format is 50 fields/25frames a sec, and the contents were not distributed theatrically, that move in the 50s made sense. Today, with the tendency toward true 24p(sf) 1080 in the long run worldwide, it poses a few problems, most notably in audio - however: the content filmed in these years is not in exactly huge demand. So, this "problem" may end up solving itself with merely few titles having to be worked on in the first place. Re: refresh rates: I know that Pioneer is working on this, so is SONY (a 200Hz unit was already introduced).

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

For the growing, varied uses of HDTV monitors it would seem nice if the manufacturers would make monitors that could adjust a larger variety of frame rates. We have 1080p/24 stuff on Blu-ray. Video games need high refresh rates. So do computer connections. And 3D may require very rapid refresh rates (like 240Hz).

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

Re: refresh rates: I know that Pioneer is working on this, so is SONY (a 200Hz unit was already introduced).

Can the HDTVs such as the Sony receive inputs at 200hz or is it just it's motion flow function/the refresh rate of the screen? If these HDTVs can receive inputs at higher than 60p, is this via HDMI or something else?

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by wallendo

That's the way I've always understood it. I hope BOTH versions of Oklahoma are released (although the Todd AO print used for the most recent DVD was of poor quality). Unfortunately, when the Todd AO version is released, I'm sure there will be dozens of posters complaining about 1080i60.

I wonder if people would be as disturbed by 1080i if we hadn't repeatedly heard the Toshiba A-2 HD-DVD's owners rant on about how 1080i was just as good as 1080p

If 1080p30 is encoded in 1080i60 and flagged as progressive, why can't all the players interpret this and say when you press the relavent button that it's 1080p30 not 1080i60, and when it's reading content flagged as progressive always send 1080p30 to the TV via HDMI - or 1080p60 if 1080p30 isn't compatible with all TVs - and never output it to the TV as 1080i60 if it's flagged as progressive - unless you haven't got a 1080p TV or unless you specifically choose to output it like that?

[Stacey Spears]

the actual frame rate is 23.976p

There are at least four BD titles on the market that are in fact 24 instead of 23.976. They are the "HD Moods" discs. There is Flowers, Beaches, Mountains and Aquarium. There may even be a Fire Place title. I was kind of surprised that they were 24.

Oklahoma will be interesting. Do any of the AVC encoders allow progressive frame encoding wrapped inside of an interlaced elementary stream for 30p? The PEP VC-1 encoder allows it while the Sonic Cinevision AVC encoder does not.

You really want to encode as progressive and wrap as interlaced for at least two reasons. 1. Progressive 4:2:0 vs. Interlaced 4:2:0 and 2. Progressive encoding mode is more mature on the offline AVC encoders since this was the primary focus.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

Can the HDTVs such as the Sony receive inputs at 200hz or is it just it's motion flow function/the refresh rate of the screen? If these HDTVs can receive inputs at higher than 60p, is this via HDMI or something else?

HDMI 1.3a connections support up to 10.2 billion bits of data per second. Uncompressed 1080 HD material at normal color depth runs 1.4 billion bits per second.

A 10.2 Gb/s rated pipe should be enough to feed a brand new HDTV, such as the Sony Bravia XBR7 1080p material with high frame rates or more than one 1080p/24 stream for stuff like 3D functions.

I don't know if HDTV sets with high refresh rates (120Hz, etc.) can receive rapid frame rate signals, such as a 1080p/120 HD stream. The fast refresh rate is mainly there to provide motion enhancement functions or to provide multiple passes/flashes of non-enhanced footage. I leave the motion enhancer functions of my Sony Bravia XBR4 TV turned off when watching Blu-ray movies that way the 120Hz engine will flash each movie frame of a 1080p/24 movie five times. The multiple flashing of each frame eliminates a lot of the smear and lag issues often seen in lower cost LCD-based HDTV monitors.

I thought the new Sony Bravia XBR7 had a 240Hz refresh rate (rather than 200Hz). 240Hz would work great for 3D since it is a common denominator of 24, 48, 30 and 60. Any 2D or 3D stream at any of those frame rates could work on a 240Hz TV set.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Icemage

I just have to slide in a quick thanks here to Penton-Man, Robert Harris, Torsten Kaiser, and all the other luminaries who frequent these insider threads. You bring a unique contribution to this site that can be found nowhere else, and it is a singular joy to read about your views and opinions on many of these topics (without the echo chamber elitism of another site-which-shall-not-be-named).

Happy New Year to all.

-also nice to see Stacey chime in on New Years Day.

I think that the vocal majority on-that-site watch Blu-ray movies reportedly like octopuses visualize standard definition video, i.e. as a series of still screenshots………except contrary to octopuses, the *scientists* respond predominately (and some would say exclusively) to stills rather than motion.
http://science.slashdot.org/article....55255&from=rss

Regarding luminaries, perhaps one of the most significant disappearing art forms/skills amongst young cinematographers these days is how to light and how to light fast.
Two of the greatest at this were Gregg Toland, ASC…………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sjHY...eature=related
and Jimmie Wong Howe, ASC…………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm8Lr...eature=related

Some of that ^ old generations’ progeny are previewed on this youtube clip that I previously posted in this quote (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...rs#post1221256) and those superb lighting skills are pretty much coming to an end with people like Vilmos Zsigmond ASC, the last person speaking on the clip.

The upside to all this?
Digital colorists that are adept at pulling luminance keys should have their salaries continue to substantially increase in the years to come.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gearyt

here here !!

I don’t know if this is a sign of things to come for The Dark Knight in particular, but I certainly hope so………….
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/...7b2a7c8198e03c

The nomination ballots for the Academy Awards have been sent out as of 12/26/08.

[MerrickG]

Hey Penton.

I know you cant get into specifics, but can we expect some really cool things at CES this year in regards to new title announcements and such?

Thanks!

I posted the same question in the digitalbits thread

[BluDomain]

If you can get a local PBS Channel some history buffs may be interested
in this two hour presentation. It runs from approximatel 1927 through
1952. Much, much before my time, but I found it interesting. I didn't
know that film noir was an American genre due to the influence of the
exiles. Nor did I know that some famous people of yore escaped: Peter
Lorre, Billy Wilder, Hedy Lamar for example.

DVR it in case you don't have time to watch it in one setting. It is
running all this month I think, and I suppose PBS will come out with
a DVD at some point.
CINEMA'S EXILES: FROM HITLER TO HOLLYWOOD
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/cinemasexiles/

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by BluDomain

If you can get a local PBS Channel some history buffs may be interested
in this two hour presentation. It runs from approximatel 1927 through
1952. Much, much before my time, but I found it interesting. I didn't
know that film noir was an American genre due to the influence of the
exiles. Nor did I know that some famous people of yore escaped: Peter
Lorre, Billy Wilder, Hedy Lamar for example.

DVR it in case you don't have time to watch it in one setting. It is
running all this month I think, and I suppose PBS will come out with
a DVD at some point.
CINEMA'S EXILES: FROM HITLER TO HOLLYWOOD
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/cinemasexiles/

I was watching some of this last night - interesting stuff.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by merrick97

Hey Penton.

I know you cant get into specifics, but can we expect some really cool things at CES this year in regards to new title announcements and such?

Thanks!

I posted the same question in the digitalbits thread

I see that Jeff already answered your question in regards to the Consumer Electronics Show.

I will add though that if you’re looking for the most future-proof front projector(s) purchasable for a consumer and you’ve got money burning a hole in your pocket, then you can now purchase a Sony SRX-T110 ($102,000) or SRX-T105 ($78,000) projector (along with the optional LKRI-005 DVI-D card) which then allows you to hook up your Blu-ray player for enjoyable BIG screen watching of your Blu-ray movies and at the same time being totally prepared for the next gen home media format whether it be 12-bit (XYZ 4:4:4) or something else.

As those 4k Sony projectors (with the optional board) are now capable of accepting an HDCP compliant 1920 x 1080p signal.

[dialog_gvf]

I wonder how big/highrez an OLED screen could be made if someone was willing to drop $100K on one?

Gary

[Penton-Man]

How does one draw the current multi-tasking generation (that has difficulty sitting through a two hour long motion picture) back into the local Multiplex?
(for instance, they say many screenshot *scientists* can only last about 15-30 min. before stopping the movie and posting something on the internet to *express* themselves).

Why, you scare the hell out of them in 3D! (showing in about 2 weeks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVVkMoirm78

Given the rather modest budget of 20 mill, many studio executives will be watching to see how the above feature fares in terms of box office receipts. Some think that horror could help drive the adoption of more 3D venues, or at the very least, revitalize interest in that genre which has for the most part become a string of copycat features…..many believe.

[Bobby Henderson]

I think the main way to get more customers back into movie theaters is for the movie theaters to better managed.

The booth equipment has to be properly maintained. Many theaters do not do this. Blown speakers not replaced is one common problem. Auditoriums with EQ way out of adjustment is another. Many theaters have the volume way down too low to keep a few people happy who want the audio level on par with their tiny TV at home.

Theaters need to control audience behavior. This is probably the worst problem going on with movie theaters today. A few scumbags selfishly disrupt the show through various means we've seen so many times already. It makes a lot of people disgusted and those good customers just end up staying home.

Some very high quality theaters, such as Warren Theaters in Wichita, KS and Moore, OK have a zero tolerance policy with cellphone use -either calls or texting. Do any of that crap and you'll get tossed out with no refund. That is how it should be at ALL movie theaters. If I had my way every theater in the country would have a Faraday cage built into the walls so it would be impossible to get a cellphone signal.

Finally, theaters need to be properly staff. For one, the extra personnel could actually usher the shows and keep disruptive audience members under control (or just eject them). More personnel would also move customers through the ticket and refreshment counter lines much faster.

Many movie theaters are not doing those things because they are run by corporate suits who think they're selling generic widgets rather than a movie going experience that is bigger, better and more opulent than one can receive in the home. They need to look at how successful restaurants are run: those places understand they're selling an overall dining experience -not just some food.

As for 3D, I do think it's overdue for a slasher genre film to be released in 3D. There's a number of other genre types (science fiction, certain action movies, etc.) that could do well with 3D. We need more than just CGI animated movies using the capability. The growth in live action 3D movies would also do more to encourage the development of 3D on Blu-ray.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

........They need to look at how successful restaurants are run: those places understand they're selling an overall dining experience -not just some food......

Bobby, do you travel?
http://www.villagecinemas.com.au/goldclass/

Take the “Gold Class Tour” and then click on “Wine and Dine” to check out the menu………a truly sophisticated theatrical experience.

[FourToedStatue]

The politics involved preventing the unaltered Star Wars Trilogy from being released is pretty disappointing. We all know how George Lucas feels about them but if there's a market for it why not release both editions?

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by JackBauer24

The politics involved preventing the unaltered Star Wars Trilogy from being released is pretty disappointing. We all know how George Lucas feels about them but if there's a market for it why not release both editions?

The reason is that Lucas thinks that Star Wars are his films and his alone when that is in fact not true.

They are just as much every fans films who have spent their hard earned dollars to make him the billionaire he is.

One often overlooked reason that the original trilogy is not released is the fact that his ex-wife Marcia Lucas would end up with a percentage of the sales. They were able to get around this when they released as a special feature on the previous dvd edition.

For that reason I can kind of understand.

Perhaps Jeff or Penton can elaborate.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Bobby, do you travel?
http://www.villagecinemas.com.au/goldclass/

That's a nice, very classy theater, but I don't have to travel to Australia to get that sort of experience. I can drive about an hour to Moore, OK, home of the Moore Warren Theater.
http://www.warrentheatres.com/moore.asp

The Moore Warren is one of the very best movie theaters in all of North America. All 14 screens are equipped with Dolby Digital Cinema and THX-certified sound systems -the first theater in world to feature THX and D-cinema on every screen. Some screens are equipped with Dolby 3D. Decor is very palatial. More than $1 million was spent on imported marble alone. Another million went into the neon. The two largest theaters at the Moore Warren feature giant sized screens (about 80' across) and have premium balcony seating for guests 21 and over. The over sized luxury seats have call buttons for waiter service. Oscar's lounge is an upscale bar for balcony customers.

Not every movie theater can afford the kind of coin Bill Warren has put into his locations in Wichita and the new one in Moore, OK. Nevertheless the Moore Warren is the sort of theater worth driving a decent distance to see a movie. I think more movie theater companies will have to offer this kind of product (and enforce strict audience behavior guidelines -like no freaking cell phone use) in order to get the magic back into the movie-going experience.

Studio Movie Grill has some good theaters in the Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston metro areas. They stress high presentation quality standards along with offering a good food menu and full bar service.
www.studiomoviegrill.com

Back in the 1990s, I would drive over 200 miles to Dallas to see movies at the General Cinemas Northpark 1-2 theater. The #1 house there seated 1200 and featured one of the first 2 THX systems put into use. Tomlinson Holman personally designed the chest thumping sound system that roared to life there. Decor was very conservative (or even very plain), but that theater delivered the goods where it counted: fantastic presentation quality. I've been told certain filmmakers, such as Oliver Stone and Steven Spielberg, ran private previews of their movies there. Sadly this theater closed near the end of the 1990s and was demolished.

I don't know how long Village Cinemas has been offering their Gold Class experience, but I kind of wonder if they got some of the inspiration from Warren Theatres.

[PeterTHX]

Whoa, nice cinema there Bobby.

VERY jealous, but fortunately Westwood L.A. is about an hour from me (2 hours with traffic, ugh).

Is it tornado proof? I just watched a marathon of Discovery's Destroyed In Seconds where several twisters touched down in the OK state.