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Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Displays > LCD TVs


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Old 01-27-2018, 04:28 PM   #1
JohnnyFontane JohnnyFontane is offline
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Default Do 4K discs look bad on a non-HDR 4K TV?

I dont have a 4K TV yet. When I had a 4k player though, I tried watching a 4k disc on my 1080p tv. It looked worse than the regular blu-ray. Black crush, bad shadow detail. I'm wondering if the same thing would happen with non-HDR 4k TVs.
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Old 01-27-2018, 04:47 PM   #2
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyFontane View Post
I dont have a 4K TV yet. When I had a 4k player though, I tried watching a 4k disc on my 1080p tv. It looked worse than the regular blu-ray. Black crush, bad shadow detail. I'm wondering if the same thing would happen with non-HDR 4k TVs.
I don't think it would, you just lose the benefits of HDR. I'd just get a new 4k HDR TV. There are budget deals out there, especially post-Super Bowl.
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Old 01-27-2018, 10:06 PM   #3
samlop10 samlop10 is offline
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If your TV is not HDR capable and you play HDR (like UHD blu-rays) content in it you will very likely get lower quality than playing SDR content (like standard blu-rays). The player you use will detect the TV isnít HDR capable and so it will convert it to SDR but since most players are not advanced enough in the conversion process you will likely get crushed shadow detail, clipped highlights, and inaccurate colors. The only players (that I know of) which have decent HDR->SDR conversion are the high-end Panasonic 4K blu-ray players and the OPPO 203 (and for the OPPO they are about to release a firmware with more advanced HDR->SDR modes). I would just recommend getting a relatively cheap but still very good quality HDR TV like the TCL P-series or a Vizio M-series (especially since you already have a 4K blu-ray player).
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Old 01-30-2018, 01:06 PM   #4
AnalogAperture AnalogAperture is offline
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Whaa How did you have issues with your 1080p tv?!

I have a 1080p Plasma with a 4K Player in order to take advantage of 7.1 *coughBladeRunnerisamazingin7.1cough* And I will say, as someone whose religiously seen the 25th Anniversary release of Blade Runner and I can attest that the 4K Final Cut looks damn good, even better than I imagined on my 1080p TV. Now it won't take full advantage of the 4K, but you'll definitely see an improvement AND you'll get 7.1/Atmos!!!

the example I can give is that the detail in Holden's Tie at the opening of BR just was so intricate it showed amazing texture and threading, I wasn't expecting it to be that good!

What movie did you try that you thought looked bad? Could it be that it was a poor transfer to 4K?
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Old 02-02-2018, 04:42 PM   #5
Swissangel4616 Swissangel4616 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogAperture View Post
Whaa How did you have issues with your 1080p tv?!

I have a 1080p Plasma with a 4K Player in order to take advantage of 7.1 *coughBladeRunnerisamazingin7.1cough* And I will say, as someone whose religiously seen the 25th Anniversary release of Blade Runner and I can attest that the 4K Final Cut looks damn good, even better than I imagined on my 1080p TV. Now it won't take full advantage of the 4K, but you'll definitely see an improvement AND you'll get 7.1/Atmos!!!

the example I can give is that the detail in Holden's Tie at the opening of BR just was so intricate it showed amazing texture and threading, I wasn't expecting it to be that good!

What movie did you try that you thought looked bad? Could it be that it was a poor transfer to 4K?
of course it can't give you the full 4K detail on 1080p TV. U need a 4K TV. sadly there can be issues from 4K player to a 1080p HD-TV... have same issues... looks like I need also to get a new TV in the coming weeks/months

There is also necessary (so far I read) to have the correct HDMI high-speed cables from the player to TV
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:13 PM   #6
tezster tezster is offline
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The biggest issue you'll encounter is the HDR->SDR conversion, which is highly dependent on how the player itself performs the translation.

Also, 4K-only TV sets -without HDR/WCG- tend to be lower-end edge-lit models, which certainly doesn't help in the PQ department.
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Old 02-06-2018, 01:37 AM   #7
JohnnyFontane JohnnyFontane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogAperture View Post
Whaa How did you have issues with your 1080p tv?!

I have a 1080p Plasma with a 4K Player in order to take advantage of 7.1 *coughBladeRunnerisamazingin7.1cough* And I will say, as someone whose religiously seen the 25th Anniversary release of Blade Runner and I can attest that the 4K Final Cut looks damn good, even better than I imagined on my 1080p TV. Now it won't take full advantage of the 4K, but you'll definitely see an improvement AND you'll get 7.1/Atmos!!!

the example I can give is that the detail in Holden's Tie at the opening of BR just was so intricate it showed amazing texture and threading, I wasn't expecting it to be that good!

What movie did you try that you thought looked bad? Could it be that it was a poor transfer to 4K?
when i had the sony x800 player, i tried watching Spider-man 2 and Dark Knight. Both looked better on the blu-ray version. The 4k versions had black crush/loss of shadow detail. For instance, the stripes on the mob bank manager's pinstripe suit in Dark Knight cant be seen on the 4k version (even after adjusting the sony x800 hdr settings), but can be seen on the blu-ray. (watching on 1080p tv)
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:09 PM   #8
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I just recently ventured into this territory myself.

I have a fairly high end 1080p Plasma TV, which I just got a few years ago and will not be upgrading for some time.

I've been buying 4K combo packs since the format launched since they come with the regular Blu-Ray anyway.

With some releases of catalog titles getting new transfers for the 4K disc, but being issued with the existing standard Blu-Ray that has been around for a while made from an older, lesser transfer, I was kicking around getting a 4K player.

Then last month my existing Blu-Ray player that I had connected to that TV died, so it seemed like as good of a time as any to upgrade the player.


In the research that I had already been doing for a month or so, I found that the best player for HDR to SDR conversion seems to be the Panasonic UB900. 4K players have settings to adjust these things, but Panasonic's has more increments for better "fine tuning" in that regard.

This player is on the higher end, with it's normal retail price being about $600, though it has gone on sale for $450 periodically. Luckily Best Buy happened to have such a sale on it when my other player died out.


I've only messed with the HDR to SDR conversion a bit since getting it. There have been mixed results, but having the more robust adjustment settings does help. In my limited testing of this, I've gotten some 4K movies to look pretty good, but there's still some tweeking to do, and it can vary from movie to movie. I still have to mess with this more to really get the hang of it.

One thing that surprised me, though, that I wasn't expecting was that my regular Blu-Rays look a lot better through this player. Even my wife noticed the difference, and she's less apt to noticing these things than I am.


Granted, this is a higher end player than I've used in the past. The player that it replaced was an average Sony player (it was a good player, but nothing high end), and I've used some game systems, too. I point this out because maybe a higher end regular Blu-Ray player (like an Oppo or something) would give similar output for regular Blu-Rays. I don't know for sure, I can only speak from my experience with the players that I have used. Depending on what you've been using up until now, your mileage may vary if you opt to dive into this.



Based purely on my experience, if you are going to give using a 4K player on your 1080p TV a shot, I would say wait for a sale and splurge for this Panasonic player. Even at a sale price, it may cost you about double that of other players, but it has more options and you get what you pay for. I can't make any absolute promises, of course, but depending on what kind of player you've been using up this point, you may notice an improvement in your regular Blu-Rays like I have.

It also has really good build quality, and doesn't feel "cheap" like many players these days. Assuming that build quality translates to the internal components as well, then it should be a player that can stand up to more wear and tear than cheaper players of lesser build quality (again, this is an guesstimate on my part, not a promise).


If anyone with more experience has other advice, feel free to express it and correct/counter point anything that I've said here. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm just a regular guy relaying my experience with this sort of thing.
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Old 02-09-2018, 07:07 PM   #9
Tyler1023 Tyler1023 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samlop10 View Post
If your TV is not HDR capable and you play HDR (like UHD blu-rays) content in it you will very likely get lower quality than playing SDR content (like standard blu-rays). The player you use will detect the TV isnít HDR capable and so it will convert it to SDR but since most players are not advanced enough in the conversion process you will likely get crushed shadow detail, clipped highlights, and inaccurate colors. The only players (that I know of) which have decent HDR->SDR conversion are the high-end Panasonic 4K blu-ray players and the OPPO 203 (and for the OPPO they are about to release a firmware with more advanced HDR->SDR modes). I would just recommend getting a relatively cheap but still very good quality HDR TV like the TCL P-series or a Vizio M-series (especially since you already have a 4K blu-ray player).
I have a 6500 series Samsung tv and just purchased the Panasonic UB900 player. The tv has an "HDR mode", in the settings. Am I correct in assuming that if the HDR mode is on and I play a 4k UHD movie I still won't get the full effects of the HDR as it is not native HDR. Are there certain settings on the UB900 that could improve the picture?

I'm definitely upgrading my tv this fall. My top choice is the Sony ZD9 but the OG OLED C7 is slowing creeping up the more I read reviews about it.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:09 AM   #10
samlop10 samlop10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler1023 View Post
I have a 6500 series Samsung tv and just purchased the Panasonic UB900 player. The tv has an "HDR mode", in the settings. Am I correct in assuming that if the HDR mode is on and I play a 4k UHD movie I still won't get the full effects of the HDR as it is not native HDR. Are there certain settings on the UB900 that could improve the picture?

I'm definitely upgrading my tv this fall. My top choice is the Sony ZD9 but the OG OLED C7 is slowing creeping up the more I read reviews about it.
I believe the "HDR Mode" is to simulate HDR with SDR content. Otherwise I believe the TV will detect an HDR signal and automatically switch to native HDR mode. I am not sure exactly which model you have (JU6500, KU6500, or MU6500), but I've seen for most Samsung HDR TVs you need to enable HDMI UHD Color to properly accept the bandwidth that HDR needs through HDMI.

To improve the quality, without doing a full calibration, I recommend going to the rtings website (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews) and finding your exact TV's model (you might need to click on the "discontinued" section if yours is an older model). There click on the TV's model, and from there the settings tab within the page to find the recommended settings for you TV.

As far as upgrading later this year: the Sony ZD9 is one, if not the best, LCD-LED TV currently available. However, it cannot match OLED's black level performance and contrast due to the nature of the technology. But it can get brighter than OLED TVs because due to the nature of OLED they cannot produce as much brightness. Overall I would look at it like this: If you prefer a brighter display or plan to place the TV in a room with constant moderate to high ambient light then the Sony (an LCD TV) is probably best for you. If you can control the light in the room so ambient light ranges from low, or non-existent, to moderate then I would recommend an OLED model.

Personally I think it gives the most filmic quality to movies and provides depth, thanks to the ~infinite contrast, that I have not seen on any other type of TV. The closest I've seen it matched is laser projection from a Dolby Cinema or laser IMAX (it definitely looks way better than regular projection from most theaters). I would recommend looking at them both in a store where they let you mess with the settings so you can test a good blu-ray with settings in which the mode is meant for movies (like ISF Calibrated Bright mode on the C7 for example; bright since I am sure the store will have the lights on).

Last edited by samlop10; 02-10-2018 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:16 PM   #11
J2005 J2005 is offline
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Quote:
To improve the quality, without doing a full calibration, I recommend going to the rtings website (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews) and finding your exact TV's model (you might need to click on the "discontinued" section if yours is an older model). There click on the TV's model, and from there the settings tab within the page to find the recommended settings for you TV.
would the settings for the samsung K6250 work for the KU6290 that I have?
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Old 02-11-2018, 05:31 PM   #12
samlop10 samlop10 is offline
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would the settings for the samsung K6250 work for the KU6290 that I have?
Normally I would say no since the different models suggest that even if they use the same panels and hardware, the software for the video processing might be different. You might find recommended settings from a different website(s) if you search for a review of that model online. I’d recommend trying that. You’ll probably need to read the whole thing since the settings they chose will most likely be scattered throughout the review but it’s worth it IMO.
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Old 03-18-2018, 07:25 AM   #13
Cerberus40000 Cerberus40000 is offline
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I tried it with the Xbox One X on my 1080p TV, hopeless, it looked like the backlight in my TV had died even if I maxed it out, I don't think the machine even has any HDR to SDR conversion in it, very lazy of MS.
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