Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[IronSoldier]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

So movies on Amazon Video are better quality than on iTunes?

Most of the time, yes it is. So im not able to talk 4k streams as i'm lacking a 4k apple TV but certainly 1080p HD films. At their peak they reach 15Mb/s half a bluray and often double iTunes 1080p will provide. However iTunes introduces grain which in some cases makes it look sharper than it is (dark scenes, edges and fast movement however get destroyed).

Side by side + Top Down comparison images of Arrival below. One is itunes and one is Amazon. Very very slight difference frame by frame in this slow moving scene mainly on strands of hair. Similar to if you compared bluray to streaming. It's the finer detail lost or how far you can enlarge it- Going from a 21.5" monitor to 27" monitor to 43" TV to 55" TV makes me want to cry unless I hop on the bus and sit a mile away. Uncompressed png for those wondering and each image is around 15MB- if you're on mobile data avoid.
https://i.lensdump.com/i/hJ7z7.png
https://i.lensdump.com/i/hJp6b.png

Sadly the image comparison on mouse over kept rejecting me

For sure i'd use amazon video over itunes for a HD film or TV show 95% of the time. Amazon like to vary their bitrate and can take a few seconds to a minute for full quality to be attained mind you. AppleTV can/will stream higher quality and that's another story. This is PC streaming.

[Kage]

Originally Posted by IronSoldier

Most of the time, yes it is. So im not able to talk 4k streams as i'm lacking a 4k apple TV but certainly 1080p HD films. At their peak they reach 15Mb/s half a bluray and often double iTunes 1080p will provide. However iTunes introduces grain which in some cases makes it look sharper than it is (dark scenes, edges and fast movement however get destroyed).

Side by side + Top Down comparison images of Arrival below. One is itunes and one is Amazon. Very very slight difference frame by frame in this slow moving scene mainly on strands of hair. Similar to if you compared bluray to streaming. It's the finer detail lost or how far you can enlarge it- Going from a 21.5" monitor to 27" monitor to 43" TV to 55" TV makes me want to cry unless I hop on the bus and sit a mile away. Uncompressed png for those wondering and each image is around 15MB- if you're on mobile data avoid.
https://i.lensdump.com/i/hJ7z7.png
https://i.lensdump.com/i/hJp6b.png

Sadly the image comparison on mouse over kept rejecting me

For sure i'd use amazon video over itunes for a HD film or TV show 95% of the time. Amazon like to vary their bitrate and can take a few seconds to a minute for full quality to be attained mind you.

I’ve been told that Amazon HD video is only 720p and their 4K video is really at 1400p.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by IronSoldier

Most of the time, yes it is. So im not able to talk 4k streams as i'm lacking a 4k apple TV but certainly 1080p HD films. At their peak they reach 15Mb/s half a bluray and often double iTunes 1080p will provide. However iTunes introduces grain which in some cases makes it look sharper than it is (dark scenes, edges and fast movement however get destroyed).

Side by side + Top Down comparison images of Arrival below. One is itunes and one is Amazon. Very very slight difference frame by frame in this slow moving scene mainly on strands of hair. Similar to if you compared bluray to streaming. It's the finer detail lost or how far you can enlarge it- Going from a 21.5" monitor to 27" monitor to 43" TV to 55" TV makes me want to cry unless I hop on the bus and sit a mile away. Uncompressed png for those wondering and each image is around 15MB- if you're on mobile data avoid.
https://i.lensdump.com/i/hJ7z7.png
https://i.lensdump.com/i/hJp6b.png

Sadly the image comparison on mouse over kept rejecting me

For sure i'd use amazon video over itunes for a HD film or TV show 95% of the time. Amazon like to vary their bitrate and can take a few seconds to a minute for full quality to be attained mind you.

For a start, ITunes quality is locked. There is no degrading of picture when bandwidth is a problem.

[IronSoldier]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

For a start, ITunes quality is locked. There is no degrading of picture when bandwidth is a problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by no degrading of picture when bandwidth is the problem? And yes im aware iTunes constant res/bitrate may have misworded originally. Also why im not talking AppleTV as that has other methods of streaming and will do higher quality than itunes.

Originally Posted by Kage

I’ve been told that Amazon HD video is only 720p and their 4K video is really at 1400p.

Cannot comment on 4k. HD wise, it is definitely 1080. Netflix limit chrome to 720p. There is a browser plugin to force 1080p but it doesn't allow the same bitrates as the W10 App or TV Apps.

[moviegeek1992]

Originally Posted by IronSoldier

Most of the time, yes it is. So im not able to talk 4k streams as i'm lacking a 4k apple TV but certainly 1080p HD films. At their peak they reach 15Mb/s half a bluray and often double iTunes 1080p will provide. However iTunes introduces grain which in some cases makes it look sharper than it is (dark scenes, edges and fast movement however get destroyed).

Side by side + Top Down comparison images of Arrival below. One is itunes and one is Amazon. Very very slight difference frame by frame in this slow moving scene mainly on strands of hair. Similar to if you compared bluray to streaming. It's the finer detail lost or how far you can enlarge it- Going from a 21.5" monitor to 27" monitor to 43" TV to 55" TV makes me want to cry unless I hop on the bus and sit a mile away. Uncompressed png for those wondering and each image is around 15MB- if you're on mobile data avoid.
https://i.lensdump.com/i/hJ7z7.png
https://i.lensdump.com/i/hJp6b.png

Sadly the image comparison on mouse over kept rejecting me

For sure i'd use amazon video over itunes for a HD film or TV show 95% of the time. Amazon like to vary their bitrate and can take a few seconds to a minute for full quality to be attained mind you. AppleTV can/will stream higher quality and that's another story. This is PC streaming.

That's interesting thanks. Would you say iTunes played on an Apple TV is on par with Amazon then? Or would Amazon streamed through a Fire Stick or Apple TV be even better than the Web player?

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

Speaking of subtitles. I asked in the iTunes subsection but thought I'd ask here as well, when watching a foreign film say Indian, French etc on iTunes. Can the translated subtitles be disabled? Or are they burned in the image?

It depends on the movie (just like on Blu-ray). Some do have burned in subtitles (e.g. Le Samourai by Criterion), others use soft subtitles.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by IronSoldier

Most of the time, yes it is. So im not able to talk 4k streams as i'm lacking a 4k apple TV but certainly 1080p HD films. At their peak they reach 15Mb/s half a bluray and often double iTunes 1080p will provide. However iTunes introduces grain which in some cases makes it look sharper than it is (dark scenes, edges and fast movement however get destroyed).

How can an encoding "introduce" grain? If the iTunes version has grain and the Amazon version doesn't, it means Amazon has applied a more aggressive noise filter.

I haven't done any technical comparison, but purely from subjective experience (watching both Amazon Prime and iTunes video on my projector) I don't agree that Amazon looks generally better than iTunes in HD. In any case, there is more to a good encoding than just bitrate. iTunes already delivers 1080p movies encoded with H.265 in some scenarios (and Amazon has announced they will too), which should bring a very significant improvement.

[IronSoldier]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

That's interesting thanks. Would you say iTunes played on an Apple TV is on par with Amazon then? Or would Amazon streamed through a Fire Stick or Apple TV be even better than the Web player?

I'd love for someone able to pull up xcode right now and check right now on stream details for appleTV to correct me on this....but...

In the authoring document there are suggested bit rates content are provided at. This max's at 7800 for H264 and 7000 for HDR H265 and 5800 for H265 @ 1080. Which is why it gets complicated.

4k digital streams will all use H265 codec. Whereas 1080p varies by device and content. On PC the only streamer supporting 4k playback is Netflix but that requires a certain intel cpu or nvidia gpu for the drm+H265 hardware decoding.

Now that's established, 1080p on dedicated devices... Last august/sept TVOS 11 rolled out to 4th gen apple TVs adding software decoding of H265. As such they decided to play around with the options they have ready for 4k ATV. Some 1080p TV shows and Films will now be using H265 instead of H264. Similarly Fire TV Stick 2nd Gen came with support for H265 for 1080P earlier in the year/end of 2016

AppleTV vs iTunes
On PC Apple and Amazon still use H264. So the stream going to your apple TV may end up being 5.8Mb/s H265 whereas on iTunes equivalent you'd get 5.8Mb/s MPEG4 Part 10 aka H264. The H265 stream will look better as the compression is more efficient in maintaining data. In theory 50% but in practise 25-35%. Much like how a 1L engine 10 years ago has nowhere near the power 1L engine just built does.. it's much more efficient. So you end up getting a better image overall whilst using the same bitrate. There have been a couple of people saying their bitrate of content has also gone up on the AppleTV all the way up to 15Mb/s for a 1080p H265 stream which matches Amazon's Web H264 maximum but being more efficient so looks better. Note however this bitrate goes far beyond suggested in document above so isn't straight out their streaming quality.
So AppleTV provide better quality than iTunes and equal or better than Amazon's Web service.

Amazon Web vs Amazon Device
As mentioned newest amazon devices and smart TV apps and AppleTV App support H265. The bitrate hasn't seemed to increase for 1080p content but it's the more efficient codec. So amazon device stream will look better than web*.

Amazon Device vs AppleTV
As the bitrate isn't increased it therefore matches what the appleTV is providing for H265 streams and they should roughly be equal from the concept of file size, codec and bitrate.. the only difference is the encoding that happens. Amazon and Apple use a different algorithm to compress. Which you prefer is down the end user. Much like some discs can have a bad copy of a film Apple and Amazon have their own issues at times from time to time.
*Saying something here looks better is based from bitrate and codec. Mileage may vary. Also H265 is a MaciTunes thing right now from my understanding alongside Kaby Lake requirment

Then there is the 4k stream rabbit hole im going to avoid due lack of visual experience and UK options being utter garbage outside of netflix originals and AppleTV 4k. Step up your game Amazon, Google, Flixster

tl:dr
Amazon Device ≃ AppleTV > AmazonWeb > iTunes

Originally Posted by Fiffy

How can an encoding "introduce" grain? If the iTunes version has grain and the Amazon version doesn't, it means Amazon has applied a more aggressive noise filter.

I haven't done any technical comparison, but purely from subjective experience (watching both Amazon Prime and iTunes video on my projector) I don't agree that Amazon looks generally better than iTunes in HD. In any case, there is more to a good encoding than just bitrate. iTunes already delivers 1080p movies encoded with H.265 in some scenarios (and Amazon has announced they will too), which should bring a very significant improvement.

Had changed noise to grain and kept deliberating. You're correct and I agree with you. The encode won't introduce grain but I believe apple applies their own grain when mastering for their platforms. Additionally my understanding was iTunes H265 support is Mac High Serria + Kaby Lake limited at this time? Are you aware of where Quicktime is at with H256 files? From memory it wasn't supported.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by Trace Buster Buster

I live in a 1 bedroom apartment and have plenty of space for my physical media but I don't have some chick telling me how to live. Maybe I'm the minority.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by flyry

It’s massively underrated and I have done both. It’s absolute bliss. Plus we all end up alone in the end.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by IronSoldier

Additionally my understanding was iTunes H265 support is Mac High Serria + Kaby Lake limited at this time? Are you aware of where Quicktime is at with H256 files? From memory it wasn't supported.

Are you referring to iTunes the computer application (as opposed to the store)? Currently streaming content from the iTunes store in H.265 is limited to some iOS and tvOS devices. I believe MacOS starting from High Sierra has H.265 support, but there is currently no way to stream or download iTunes content in H.265 on a Mac or PC.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Are you referring to iTunes the computer application (as opposed to the store)? Currently streaming content from the iTunes store in H.265 is limited to some iOS and tvOS devices. I believe MacOS starting from High Sierra has H.265 support, but there is currently no way to stream or download iTunes content in H.265 on a Mac or PC.

Can they play h.265 though itunes quicktime, or the tv app on iphones though? I would really like to play h.265 from the tv app on my iphone and ipad for the space saving and then I could hopefully airplane it to the apple tv.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by flyry

[Show spoiler]

While I like having someone in my life, I don't want them in my house. Not 24/7, anyway. I like my privacy, my space, my decorating, my way of doing things, and my solitude and none of that is possible with someone else living under my roof.

Katharine Hepburn observed: "I often wonder whether men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then."

I share this viewpoint: in my life: yes; in my home: No!

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by veritas

Can they play h.265 though itunes quicktime, or the tv app on iphones though? I would really like to play h.265 from the tv app on my iphone and ipad for the space saving and then I could hopefully airplane it to the apple tv.

Assuming you are talking about non-iTunes (i.e. self-encoded) content: iPhone 7 and later as well as iPad Pro (2017) and later support HEVC playback in hardware (this capability is exposed to applications starting in iOS 11). They should be able to play any H.265 content. Older devices may be able to play back low-bitrate H.265 using apps such as Infuse. On the Mac side, it depends on how fast your CPU is. I think only the latest Macs have hardware support, but older models may be able to play some files in software.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Assuming you are talking about non-iTunes (i.e. self-encoded) content: iPhone 7 and later as well as iPad Pro (2017) and later support HEVC playback in hardware (this capability is exposed to applications starting in iOS 11). They should be able to play any H.265 content. Older devices may be able to play back low-bitrate H.265 using apps such as Infuse. On the Mac side, it depends on how fast your CPU is. I think only the latest Macs have hardware support, but older models may be able to play some files in software.

I mean self encoded home videos. Could you play them though the video/tv app?

[CV19]

Originally Posted by Vilya

While I like having someone in my life, I don't want them in my house. Not 24/7, anyway. I like my privacy, my space, my decorating, my way of doing things, and my solitude and none of that is possible with someone else living under my roof.

Katharine Hepburn observed: "I often wonder whether men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then."

I share this viewpoint: in my life: yes; in my home: No!

I agree. After a hard day at work, the last thing I want to hear is a girlfriend telling me she wants to watch Dirty Dancing yet again when all I want is to sit back and unwind with, for example, a decent action or horror movie.

[Trace Buster Buster]

Originally Posted by Vilya

While I like having someone in my life, I don't want them in my house. Not 24/7, anyway. I like my privacy, my space, my decorating, my way of doing things, and my solitude and none of that is possible with someone else living under my roof.

Katharine Hepburn observed: "I often wonder whether men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then."

I share this viewpoint: in my life: yes; in my home: No!

I think it's funny that people's reaction when they see a guy who's not married or doesn't have a girlfriend is automatically , "poor guy, he can't get a girl." Like you're either completely alone or you're in a committed relationship with no in between lol.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by veritas

I mean self encoded home videos. Could you play them though the video/tv app?

I haven't tried it (I use Infuse for this kind of thing now). Why not just download a short demo video and try it yourself? E.g. here's a 2.5MB clip from Big Buck Bunny:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/x265.org/vi...y_2000hevc.mp4

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Trace Buster Buster

I think it's funny that people's reaction when they see a guy who's not married or doesn't have a girlfriend is automatically , "poor guy, he can't get a girl." Like you're either completely alone or you're in a committed relationship with no in between lol.

People seem to like extremes; all this or entirely that. Never anything in between. Someone comes to mind on this very thread who has proclaimed time and again that "Disc is dead" and "Digital rules", when neither is true.

A committed relationship is best observed between a psychiatrist and their institutionalized patient.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by Vilya

While I like having someone in my life, I don't want them in my house. Not 24/7, anyway. I like my privacy, my space, my decorating, my way of doing things, and my solitude and none of that is possible with someone else living under my roof.

Katharine Hepburn observed: "I often wonder whether men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then."

I share this viewpoint: in my life: yes; in my home: No!

Originally Posted by Vilya

People seem to like extremes; all this or entirely that. Never anything in between. Someone comes to mind on this very thread who has proclaimed time and again that "Disc is dead" and "Digital rules", when neither is true.

A committed relationship is best observed between a psychiatrist and their institutionalized patient.

No offense, but aren't you like 50?

Originally Posted by Trace Buster Buster

I think it's funny that people's reaction when they see a guy who's not married or doesn't have a girlfriend is automatically , "poor guy, he can't get a girl." Like you're either completely alone or you're in a committed relationship with no in between lol.

When you use terminology like "some chick telling me how to live" it's not hard to see your future