Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

IMO the time for blanket statements like this is over. I find that iTunes 4K streams usually look better than the Blu-ray release (and before you say "not fair", consider that many iTunes 4K titles aren't available on UHD disc). Even the HD streams mostly look very good and, depending on the movie and mastering, can be difficult to distinguish from the disc.

I wish it was possible to have a differentiated discussion of the various formats, without all those stupid "disc good, digital evil" type of postings ..

To be fair, I have not watched an iTunes 4K stream yet. I am strictly talking about Blu-ray compared to the 1080p/720p digital streaming and download services. Sure, they do look fine considering how compressed they are. I would argue that compressing a Blu-ray with x264 would produce better quality at similar bitrate/file size. But my original statement that these are nowhere near Blu-ray quality still holds true. I guess it depends on what a person finds acceptable.

[SarahS]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

I don't think Steedeel comments on other actual blu-ray threads as much as he does on this one. It's his personal mission to discredit any and all digital services forgetting himself that a movie is a movie. Doesn't matter if one watches a movie on a phone or in the cinema if the movie is good it's good, blu-ray quality isn't somehow going to improve the film itself. Similarly a turd of a movie could have the greatest transfer in the world, wouldn't make it any better. I actually laughed when people in the 4K threads were buying Smurfs 2 on 4K, falling into the studios trap of getting one to pay exorbitant prices for a title that can be found anywhere else in a bargain bin on blu-ray.

I like a lot of films that never got a release beyond a VHS, I'm not going to stop watching them because the quality is bad.
This whole digital vs physical debate is pointless because it's subjective at the end of the day what people prefer. There are hard facts for some points but just because a film on blu-ray has better image quality doesn't mean everyone will notice the difference. Heck look at how many average folk stuck with DVDs and the quality of digital HD is better than DVD for sure.

It's the fact that he says the same exact thing over and over.....so anytime someone new says they prefer digital he is johnny on the spot to repeat the same diatribe.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

I think you are taking this too personally. He is right that the digital formats fall short where quality is concerned.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

IMO the time for blanket statements like this is over. I find that iTunes 4K streams usually look better than the Blu-ray release (and before you say "not fair", consider that many iTunes 4K titles aren't available on UHD disc). Even the HD streams mostly look very good and, depending on the movie and mastering, can be difficult to distinguish from the disc.

I wish it was possible to have a differentiated discussion of the various formats, without all those stupid "disc good, digital evil" type of postings ..

You're right Fiffy, to me we have reached a point where Streaming Digital is Disc Quality. I think the people that prefer Discs should not put down Digital Streaming. I keep saying it's all Digital the Codec is the same, so you either Read and Stream from a Disc Player or you Read and Stream from a Digital Server Provider. Digital Streaming Technology has come a long way in a short time, and even the Experts don't have all the facts right. To Stream Disc Quality Movies you need a High End Digital Provider like Sony Ultra, good consistent High Bandwidth, High Quality Streaming Device, and everything set up properly Hard Wired preferred.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by SarahS

It's the fact that he says the same exact thing over and over.....so anytime someone new says they prefer digital he is johnny on the spot to repeat the same diatribe.

The problem with that is I struggle to take criticism from someone who has been (in my opinion) trolling the movie threads for a long time. So jog on Sarah.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right Fiffy, to me we have reached a point where Streaming Digital is Disc Quality. I think the people that prefer Discs should not put down Digital Streaming. I keep saying it's all Digital the Codec is the same, so you either Read and Stream from a Disc Player or you Read and Stream from a Digital Server Provider. Digital Streaming Technology has come a long way in a short time, and even the Experts don't have all the facts right. To Stream Disc Quality Movies you need a High End Digital Provider like Sony Ultra, good consistent High Bandwidth, High Quality Streaming Device, and everything set up properly Hard Wired preferred.

In other words, what the majority of people don’t have. Digital is just about convenience. These people don’t care about quality, that much is crystal clear.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

To be fair, I have not watched an iTunes 4K stream yet. I am strictly talking about Blu-ray compared to the 1080p/720p digital streaming and download services. Sure, they do look fine considering how compressed they are. I would argue that compressing a Blu-ray with x264 would produce better quality at similar bitrate/file size. But my original statement that these are nowhere near Blu-ray quality still holds true. I guess it depends on what a person finds acceptable.

They always come back with the 4K streams look better than Blu-ray (resolution wise, obviously but backgrounds are sometimes less stable, ditto camera pans) We have now moved onto 4K disc. You won’t match it, it’s that simple.

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

They always come back with the 4K streams look better than Blu-ray (resolution wise, obviously but backgrounds are sometimes less stable, ditto camera pans) We have now moved onto 4K disc. You won’t match it, it’s that simple.

Yep and comparing 1080p Blu-ray to a 4k stream is not an apples to apples comparison.

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right Fiffy, to me we have reached a point where Streaming Digital is Disc Quality.

:-D Streaming is disc quality? Okay.

I think the people that prefer Discs should not put down Digital Streaming.

If you don't want to hear my opinion, nobody is forcing you to read it.

I keep saying it's all Digital the Codec is the same, so you either Read and Stream from a Disc Player or you Read and Stream from a Digital Server Provider.

Except that discs are not limited by bandwidth the way streaming is.

Digital Streaming Technology has come a long way in a short time, and even the Experts don't have all the facts right. To Stream Disc Quality Movies you need a High End Digital Provider like Sony Ultra, good consistent High Bandwidth, High Quality Streaming Device, and everything set up properly Hard Wired preferred.

I thought you said it's all the same, whether you stream from a disc or over your internet connection? I'm curious, have you looked to see what the bandwidth is that the streaming providers are using compared to what you're getting on a disc?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right Fiffy, to me we have reached a point where Streaming Digital is Disc Quality. I think the people that prefer Discs should not put down Digital Streaming. I keep saying it's all Digital the Codec is the same, so you either Read and Stream from a Disc Player or you Read and Stream from a Digital Server Provider. Digital Streaming Technology has come a long way in a short time, and even the Experts don't have all the facts right. To Stream Disc Quality Movies you need a High End Digital Provider like Sony Ultra, good consistent High Bandwidth, High Quality Streaming Device, and everything set up properly Hard Wired preferred.

Well practice what you preach man. Every other post is ‘disc is dead’. You talk crap most of the time (again imo) and expect me to believe that Digital is the best thing since sliced bread. It’s a cheap and nasty format for the masses that don’t give a hoot about quality. This is a enthusiasts forum. We shouldn’t be settling for second rate when we have a superior format. Not if you love film and want to see it presented in the best way. I mean get some self respect. If you guys care enough about movies, surely you care about watching them in the finest quality outside of cinema?

[Vilya]

For the first time in years, I have Netflix again. I started a free one month trial last night, the HD plan- not the 4K, because I wanted to watch season 2 of Stranger Things.

I have to say that it did look and sound pretty decent, better than I expected, but I can not say it is equal to a blu-ray disc. I can certainly see where the typical viewer would be content with the quality, though. The average viewer is happy with DVD, so why wouldn't they like it?

My internet is so unreliable here that I doubt I will keep the service after the free trial. Frankly, I have not found that much to watch (that interests me) that I don't already own on disc. I am not very familiar with their original programming, either. It's a fun experiment and I can visit the Upside Down again.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

4K streams vs Blu-ray is not apples to apples comparison.

Of course it isn’t. 4K is just a extension of Blu-ray but all of a sudden digital lovers want to refer back to Blu-ray. Wonder why?

[Vilya]

Oxford Dictionaries defines streaming this way: "A method of transmitting or receiving data (especially video and audio material) over a computer network as a steady, continuous flow, allowing playback to start while the rest of the data is still being received."

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/streaming

Streaming is entirely different than watching a disc. There is no need for a computer network or an internet connection to play back the content on a disc. All of the data is on the disc, read by the player, and sent over an HDMI cable, typically, to a display device. There are no bandwidth issues, no data caps, and no possible internet/ networking issues to contend with. Far less compression is another obvious difference between watching blu-ray or 4K UHD discs compared to streaming.

Equating streaming digital content over the internet with reading data encoded on a disc is a FALSE equivalency. They are NOT the same. You stream from the internet, not from a player.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

...even the Experts don't have all the facts right.

If that statement were actually true, and as usual you cite nothing to support it, where does that leave the veracity of your amateur remarks?

You imply that the experts are frequently wrong, without even saying what they are wrong about, and the inference is that you are here to enlighten us all; what a godsend we have in you.

[SarahS]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

In other words, what the majority of people don’t have. Digital is just about convenience. These people don’t care about quality, that much is crystal clear.

Dude the only one trolling is you. See you just did it again. Made the same claim over and over. I have had a hella lot more physical media than you have ever dreamed of having. I sold all of it except anything that is not currently HD UV. The video quality is minimal at best.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by SarahS

Dude the only one trolling is you. See you just did it again. Made the same claim over and over. I have had a hella lot more physical media than you have ever dreamed of having. I sold all of it except anything that is not currently HD UV. The video quality is minimal at best.

Lol. I doubt that. I had hundreds of laserdiscs, thousands of DVD’s and last time I counted 805 Blu-rays

The entire movie section knows you troll (imo) but whatever....

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

To be fair, I have not watched an iTunes 4K stream yet. I am strictly talking about Blu-ray compared to the 1080p/720p digital streaming and download services.

Another blanket statement. There are differences between the various services, and they keep improving over time with better codecs and increasing bitrates.

Sure, they do look fine considering how compressed they are. I would argue that compressing a Blu-ray with x264 would produce better quality at similar bitrate/file size.

Not sure what that is supposed to show. Exactly what are you comparing your hypothetical x264 files to? BTW, at least one big subscription streaming service uses x264 to encode their files.

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

Yep and comparing 1080p Blu-ray to a 4k stream is not an apples to apples comparison.

Maybe not, but as noted there are now many more 4K movies available digitally than on disc, which means in many cases the digital versions are the best you can get.

[stonesfan129]

Why do I feel like this thread is turning into the Gangsta Party Line? Digital falls short where quality is concerned compared to disc based formats. It's all right here - AVS Forum Blu-ray vs digital. Digital is about convenience. That is why many are willing to overlook the drawbacks with regards to quality. The disc-based formats have far higher bitrate not only for video but audio too. That's why I find it laughable when people try to tell me streaming is disc quality.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

Why do I feel like this thread is turning into the Gangsta Party Line? Digital falls short where quality is concerned compared to disc based formats. It's all right here - AVS Forum Blu-ray vs digital.

A random list of search results from another forum ... that settles it then.

The disc-based formats have far higher bitrate not only for video but audio too.

iTunes 4K streams have been measured at 20-25Mbps, which is in the ballpark of most BDs *and* they use a ~50% more efficient codec than BD

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

A random list of search results from another forum ... that settles it then.
iTunes 4K streams have been measured at 20-25Mbps, which is in the ballpark of most BDs *and* it uses a ~50% more efficient codec on top.

A Comparison of Skyfall on iTunes, Vudu, and Blu-ray

Interstellar: Blu-ray vs. iTunes vs. Vudu vs. Amazon

The Grand Budapest Hotel: Blu-ray vs. Vudu vs. iTunes vs. Amazon

Argo: iTunes vs. Vudu vs. Blu-ray

Since you could not be bothered to read some of the links to the articles AVSForum did, I posted the direct links so you can read them for yourself. In every one of these comparisons, it shows how the digital offerings either remove film grain, are rife with banding or have inaccurate color compared to the Blu-ray. On top of that, you're also missing lossless audio (although my experience has been that Dolby Digital 5.1 640kbps sounds fine).

Now onto iTunes UHD streams - again - this is not a fair comparison. You're comparing 2160p to 1080p. That would be like me saying a Blu-ray disc looks better than a 720p stream. 20-25Mbps? Nah try more like 15 tops. It has to use a more efficient codec (H265) in order to keep the file size down and prevent constant buffering. Compared to a UHD disc which runs at around 80-100Mbps for video bitrate, I would expect it to look tons better because it's not compressed to a fraction of the original size.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

..... even the Experts don't have all the facts right.

Originally Posted by Vilya

Oxford Dictionaries defines streaming this way: "A method of transmitting or receiving data (especially video and audio material) over a computer network as a steady, continuous flow, allowing playback to start while the rest of the data is still being received."

Streaming is entirely different than watching a disc. There is no need for a computer network or an internet connection to play back the content on a disc. All of the data is on the disc, read by the player, and sent over an HDMI cable, typically, to a display device. There are no bandwidth issues, no data caps, and no possible internet/ networking issues to contend with. Far less compression is another obvious difference between watching blu-ray or 4K UHD discs compared to streaming.

Equating streaming digital content over the internet with reading data encoded on a disc is a FALSE equivalency. They are NOT the same. You stream from the internet, not from a player.

Originally Posted by Vilya

If that statement were actually true, and as usual you cite nothing to support it, where does that leave the veracity of your amateur remarks?

You imply that the experts are frequently wrong, without even saying what they are wrong about, and the inference is that you are here to enlighten us all; what a godsend we have in you.

Who are the "Experts." people that think they know what they are talking about. Have you ever looked at a DVD or Blu-ray Disc, they have Files and Folders with VOB or MTS Files. Players Stream these Files to your TV or Monitor over HDMI the same way you Stream from the Internet Hard Wired or Wireless. Don't you know the Internet is just Networks and Servers, and Computer Storage are Files and Folders...Making the Internet Computers and Servers. I was Backing-up my DVD's and Blu-rays years ago with these VOB and MTS Files to Disc and Server, and Streaming them to my HDTV with either the Disc Player or Streaming Application on my Buffalo Player.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Who are the "Experts." people that think they know what they are talking about. Have you ever looked at a DVD or Blu-ray Disc, they have Files and Folders with VOB or MTS Files. Players Stream these Files to your TV or Monitor over HDMI the same way you Stream from the Internet Hard Wired or Wireless. Don't you know the Internet is just Networks and Servers, and Computer Storage are Files and Folders...Making the Internet Computers and Servers. I was Backing-up my DVD's and Blu-rays years ago with these VOB and MTS Files to Disc and Server, and Streaming them to my HDTV with either the Disc Player or Streaming Application on my Buffalo Player.

Definition of an expert: "a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area." -Merriam Webster Dictionary.

An expert is someone with proven, detailed knowledge on a particular subject. They have credentials, such as an advanced degree from an accredited university combined with vast experience in their area of study.

They are not just people spouting opinions. You made the statement that the experts are sometimes wrong, without even saying what you think they are wrong about and without anything to support your vague assertion.

As amateurs, if either of us were to say an expert is wrong in their field of knowledge, the burden of proof would lie very heavily on us to prove that assertion. If we were to say the Head of Neurosurgery at UCLA was wrong about subarachnoid hemorrhages, then we better have some compelling evidence to prove it. Otherwise, we look the fool and deservedly so.

You seem to be unable to grasp the definition of streaming. Data read by a laser off of an optical storage disc and then conveyed over a cable to a display monitor is NOT streaming. It is simply data transfer off of a ROM disc. More precisely:

"When a Blu-Ray disc is inserted into a player, the player's laser will scan the data packets near the center of the disc to get all of the basic information that it needs to play the disc. This data also contains information about how the disc is encrypted, allowing the player to decrypt the data, which was originally encrypted as a measure against piracy. Once the player has the necessary data and encryption details it can then begin playing the disc, reading the data packets as the disc spins and converting them to digital video and audio information. This information is then sent to the television, monitor or other device connected to the Blu-Ray player, generally through the use of separate component cables or an HD cable connection."

https://www.techwalla.com/articles/h...ay-player-work

Notice how the word "streaming" is not used in that explanation? It is simply data transfer.

The definition of streaming from yet another dictionary:

From Collins Dictionary: "a method of sequentially transmitting an audio or video presentation, as over the Internet: the data is playable as it is being received, rather than only after it is completely downloaded.

Also: "Streaming is a method of transmitting data from the Internet directly to a user's computer screen without the need to download it."

And: "the process of supplying data, audio, etc in real time over the internet."

See: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us...lish/streaming Read it and try to comprehend it. Notice how all of these definitions for streaming use the word "internet."

Streaming requires accessing the internet; the data is not in your possession whereas it is on an optical disc. No network, no internet, is required to get the data off of an optical disc because the data is already there. Therein lies the distinction.

I am aware of the file structures on an optical disc. I have been backing up laserdiscs to blank DVD media beginning back in 2005. I make back-ups of dvds and blu-ray discs to this day, both as complete 1 to 1 copies with all menu architecture intact and also as simple data discs with just the video files themselves present on the disc media.

Players stream NOTHING off of a disc. Players read data that is already present on that disc and transfers it to a display device via a hard wired connection.

Streaming is a flow of data acquired sequentially in real time via a network connection, the internet, and can be transmitted wirelessly or by wire to a display device. The data is accessed remotely off of a server, transmitted over the internet, and is displayed as it is being received over a network connection.

Words have meanings and they are not interchangeable. The dictionary definitions are not wrong. Your usage of the word "streaming" is completely incorrect.