Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

If you don't take Streaming seriously you will be left behind, because Technology waits for no one!

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

History has shown otherwise. DVD, Blu-ray, streaming, and downloads all co-exist. CD, Vinyl, downloads, and streaming all co-exist. 35mm film and digital video co-exist. Ovens and microwaves co-exist. Cars, motorcycles, and trains co-exist. Chopsticks and forks co-exist. Glasses and contacts co-exist. Cell phones and landlines co-exist. Tablets, laptops, and desktops co-exist. Pens and pencils co-exist. Showers and baths co-exist. Jeans and khakis co-exist.

There are millions of examples of new technologies that don't obliterate the older ones. It doesn't matter in the slightest if one technology is more popular than the other as long as both remain profitable. As long as people continue buying discs, companies will continue making discs.

Originally Posted by Vilya

I take neither streaming, nor you, seriously.

I have not even logged into my fledgling Netflix account in nearly a month. Why? Because I have a modest disc library with a better selection.

My library is not larger than Netflix's, but it is filled exclusively with titles that I absolutely know will interest me and that alone makes it better.

No waiting for that streaming technology to buffer here- my disc player tech makes no one wait and it provides the best quality presentation possible from start thru finish.

That's fine, you're right you can co-exits with anything, and not taking Streaming seriously is your choice. As for the future of Discs, even the people here have shown they don't want to pay more than $5 or $10 for them. The Studios see a decline in Disc purchases, no matter what your stats say. Disney is all in for Streaming, and like I predicted they are looking to offer First Run Movies on their new Streaming Site with same day Box Office Showings. So you guys could stay with your Discs, but Original Content and First Run Movies are going Streaming!

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That's fine, you're right you can co-exits with anything, and not taking Streaming seriously is your choice. As for the future of Discs, even the people here have shown they don't want to pay more than $5 or $10 for them. The Studios see a decline in Disc purchases, no matter what your stats say. Disney is all in for Streaming, and like I predicted they are looking to offer First Run Movies on their new Streaming Site with same day Box Office Showings. So you guys could stay with your Discs, but Original Content and First Run Movies are going Streaming!

Yes, but why does it have to be one or another?

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That's fine, you're right you can co-exits with anything, and not taking Streaming seriously is your choice. As for the future of Discs, even the people here have shown they don't want to pay more than $5 or $10 for them. The Studios see a decline in Disc purchases, no matter what your stats say. Disney is all in for Streaming, and like I predicted they are looking to offer First Run Movies on their new Streaming Site with same day Box Office Showings. So you guys could stay with your Discs, but Original Content and First Run Movies are going Streaming!

The people here also wont pay the same amount for digital as they will for physical. If I am saying I will pay 5 to 10 for a Blu ray I would pay somewhere between 0 and 1 for a digital copy. If they are willing to get payed like 0 to 10% for a digital rather then physical plus digital then I can live with just the digital.

[dublinbluray108]

That news story about TLJ being sold to prime customers did confuse me a little because I noticed a rather interesting anomaly when browsing Amazon.com. I typed in "The Last Jedi Blu-ray" in it's search box & I found an imported 3D Blu-ray version & a standard Blu-ray with a different slipcover that is available to everyone else who does not have prime. Those 2 Blu-ray versions with the different artwork & slipcover is sold from the UK & are region free. When I looked those up on Amazon for the region free 4K edition; it was included with the other versions on the 3D Blu-ray link. The only difference apart from the separate artwork and covers was the price. The region free copies of TLJ are way more expensive than the copies that are sold exclusively to prime members in the U.S.

To summarize; the Region A TLJ Blu-rays are sold exclusively to prime members. The region free copies which are not sold only through prime are sold to a wider customer base. Although I have no idea if these versions can be sold to U.S. customers because I don't live there; you have research that yourself in your own time. Seemingly if you can purchase the region free copies of the movie on Amazon; well that's great. If you can buy the region free copy; you should be fine even if it costs you more money in the end. But the talk of all out restrictions if you don't have prime could be a little premature because people who said those comments earlier in this thread advising you to purchase a prime subscription beforehand may have spoke too soon without reason to spread misinformation without facing consequences later on. Just my 2 cents.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

As for the future of Discs, even the people here have shown they don't want to pay more than $5 or $10 for them. The Studios see a decline in Disc purchases, no matter what your stats say.

The stats I have linked to have clearly shown a decline in disc sales, 14.1% decline in 2017 to be precise; you would know that if you had not summarily dismissed the data for not fitting your agenda.

I, as one of the people "here" who buy discs, routinely pay release day prices for discs, which typically range from $19.99 to $29.99. I do this almost every single week. I am not alone, either.

Naturally, I like bargains, too, and I avail myself of many. But unlike digital scroungers who are often sniffing around for outright freebies, we disc fans are willing to pay for the quality we receive. You do not see people on this website begging for free discs, do you?

As you do not buy discs, perhaps you are not qualified to speak about the behavior of those who do? And please don't tell us anymore fairy tales told to you by the retail clerks in your local stores- it proves nothing and less than no one cares.

Most content becomes available on disc and that is how I, and many others, will continue to buy it- even at release day prices. I am denied very, very little. And I do not care who releases it first; I have plenty to watch in the meantime and I will buy more as it is released.

Those who value tangible ownership and the utmost in quality will continue to support physical media. It will remain a viable choice for those who want the best that can be had. For those with "different" standards, streaming will always be here for the quantity and value oriented masses.

Personally, the primary purpose of Netflix is to provide me with more Stranger Things episodes and I even own the first season of it on 4K UHD. Even their best original stuff comes to disc. It is their original programing that interests me most; their movie selection is mostly "B" tier crap.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by alchav21

If you don't take Streaming seriously you will be left behind, because Technology waits for no one!

Says the guy using VERY outdated audio equipment.

Is this seriously the best argument that you've got at this point? You sound like a corporate shill. Many here, myself included, have more than successfully debunked your nonsense, and this is the best that you cant come up with as a reply?

Most people here who mainly collect discs for the movies that they buy also subscribe to some kind of streaming service, most commonly Netflix at minimum.

And even if someone is 100% completely anti-streaming in every shape and form it currently exists in, what is the worst-case scenario? If years from now somehow all content goes streaming and at some point no physical options are released even for the most popular of content (something that I highly doubt will happen in my lifetime), it's not like that person cannot adopt streaming at that point if they so choose. There isn't some deadline for someone to adopt streaming or be "permanently banned from the club" going forward if they don't. Those services will always accept new customers because they are businesses and like making money.

[squidzilla]

Originally Posted by veritas

The people here also wont pay the same amount for digital as they will for physical. If I am saying I will pay 5 to 10 for a Blu ray I would pay somewhere between 0 and 1 for a digital copy. If they are willing to get payed like 0 to 10% for a digital rather then physical plus digital then I can live with just the digital.

That is about what I will pay for digital. Between 0 and 2 bucks. So far it has been zero in the form of the free UV copy I get with my movies. I have not been able to convince myself to pay the 2 bucks VUDU wants for DtD conversions. I would rather use the money for future Blu Ray purchases and now for future UHD disc purchases.

I see no problem with using sales to keep my disc purchases on the cheaper side since it is the retailer that takes the hit in the form of lower margins and not the studio.

[The_Donster]

One could argue, if physical is truly on its death bed why it there already talk for the next format. I mean since I became a member here it has gone from BD to 4K. The same can be said about digital. It was initially a disc to SD digital format that now redeems with a HD/4K code.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That's fine, you're right you can co-exits with anything, and not taking Streaming seriously is your choice. As for the future of Discs, even the people here have shown they don't want to pay more than $5 or $10 for them. The Studios see a decline in Disc purchases, no matter what your stats say. Disney is all in for Streaming, and like I predicted they are looking to offer First Run Movies on their new Streaming Site with same day Box Office Showings. So you guys could stay with your Discs, but Original Content and First Run Movies are going Streaming!

Originally Posted by The_Donster

Yes, but why does it have to be one or another?

Originally Posted by veritas

The people here also wont pay the same amount for digital as they will for physical. If I am saying I will pay 5 to 10 for a Blu ray I would pay somewhere between 0 and 1 for a digital copy. If they are willing to get payed like 0 to 10% for a digital rather then physical plus digital then I can live with just the digital.

It doesn't have to be one or the other, but what you are willing to pay is significant. I shop for the best price in Digital, and I'm sure the Disc people do the same. Digital prices have been going up, but even here on this Site a couple of bucks are for Old Movies. Prices for 4K Movies are not coming down, and I won't buy a 4K Movie to get the Digital if I can't make at least 75% of my money back. So bottom line, if Disc Inventories don't sell Distributors will have to cut back.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

It doesn't have to be one or the other, but what you are willing to pay is significant. I shop for the best price in Digital, and I'm sure the Disc people do the same. Digital prices have been going up, but even here on this Site a couple of bucks are for Old Movies. Prices for 4K Movies are not coming down, and I won't buy a 4K Movie to get the Digital if I can't make at least 75% of my money back. So bottom line, if Disc Inventories don't sell Distributors will have to cut back.

See, now I'm going to flip that back around on you. I will not pay the same price for a digital movie as I will a physical disc. Especially when a large percentage of them come with a code. And like physical, I will try and get the best bang for my buck when I do.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

So bottom line, if Disc Inventories don't sell Distributors will have to cut back.

If everyone had fiber giggly bit internet service, we could all stream holograms.

If pigs had wings, they would fly.

You and all of your "ifs."

Physical media sells well enough, so you need not cry for us. This week alone, on just blu-ray and 4K, there are 70 new releases coming out on disc. It is like that most weeks, too. We would not see so many new releases every. single. week. if "disc inventories" were not moving.

Streaming providers like Netflix do not add one-third as many titles in an entire month.

As you won't even look at the data for home entertainment spending because it does not show what you want to see, you should refrain from making sales predictions. Your "if" scenarios are based on nothing but your imagination and your wishes- namely that physical media fail. You want that outcome so badly, you just can't stand that it is not happening.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

It doesn't have to be one or the other, but what you are willing to pay is significant. I shop for the best price in Digital, and I'm sure the Disc people do the same. Digital prices have been going up, but even here on this Site a couple of bucks are for Old Movies. Prices for 4K Movies are not coming down, and I won't buy a 4K Movie to get the Digital if I can't make at least 75% of my money back. So bottom line, if Disc Inventories don't sell Distributors will have to cut back.

So even you don't value the digital copy at 25% of the value of the combo pack?

This is why digital vod services will never go mainstream (as in replace physical sales as the dominate revenue stream) even alchav21 is not willing to pay more then 25% of the physicals price for digital. The bottom line is if they stop selling physical they have to take a 75% cut in the prices they charge which IMO they will find is not worth it to just kill the used market.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by veritas

So even you don't value the digital copy at 25% of the value of the combo pack?

This is why digital vod services will never go mainstream (as in replace physical sales as the dominate revenue stream) even alchav21 is not willing to pay more then 25% of the physicals price for digital. The bottom line is if they stop selling physical they have to take a 75% cut in the prices they charge which IMO they will find is not worth it to just kill the used market.

He, and others like him, don't want to pay anything for digital copies. They want those of who buy discs to just give the codes away for free on sites like this one. At least they know their worth.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Prices for 4K Movies are not coming down, and I won't buy a 4K Movie to get the Digital if I can't make at least 75% of my money back. So bottom line, if Disc Inventories don't sell Distributors will have to cut back.

And that's your problem. As others have stated, you clearly don't put much value on digital if you are only willing to pay 25% of the physical equivalent to obtain it.

You also keep wrongly assuming that because you are having increased difficulty selling discs that you bought so you can get the digital copies for cheap, that no one is willing to pay full price for discs.

I would argue that given the decline that physical media has had in sales overall, what we are seeing is a more specific divide between enthusiasts and casual buyers of discs. People who were and always have been more casual in their attitudes towards buying movies, even before streaming was a "thing," and when DVD was at it's height, might have bought a lot of discs back when it was more or less the only option to have a decent amount of content on hand. Those are people who would have been less willing to pay brand new prices for discs, and might even go to ebay for lower prices and such.

Now that there are streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, etc., that gives those people a decent amount of content 'on demand' for a low monthly price, they aren't buying as many movies at all, be it on discs or digitally.



By contrast, many of the people buying discs now are more likely to at least lean more towards the 'enthusiast' side of things and are buying movies physically to ensure they have access to them with no risk of some digital rights being taken away down the road. This is even more so true with the 4K format, which is something that tends to appeal to the more 'hardcore' enthusiasts.

As such, the people buying those movies, especially upon or shortly after release, are paying those early higher prices for brand new copies. And most would probably rather pay the full price from a store (be it physical or online) than pay 75% of that for your essentially used copy (in terms of it having been purchased and opened).

Even for those who don't plan to use the digital copy, as enthusiasts, most would rather buy their discs brand new, especially if they would only be potentially saving $5 off of a $25 4k set when buying from you. There's little incentive there. If a disc ends up being defective, it is going to be much easier for them to rectify that by exchanging it at the retailer that they bought it from than to try and go through you for a return/refund, and then still have to rebuy the movie. In order for those people to even consider taking the gamble on an open copy that someone is selling, the savings have to justify the potential risks and headaches. 25% off IMO is not enough to justify that.

Then there's the issue of shipping costs, Paypal fees and, if selling through ebay, the ebay fees as well. In order for you to actually pocket 75% of what you paid for a combo pack, you would have to charge a higher price that covers the fees and shipping in order to get that 75%. And that means that you would have to charge a price that is closer to the actual retail price of the movie, possibly more. And at that point there's not even a small incentive for people to buy discs off of you.

I buy plenty of movies right upon release. And in general I don't even consider looking at ebay or the people selling things here to get those releases. I just go directly to the store (more often than not Best Buy or Target... occasionally Walmart or ordering from Amazon) to get it.

In my own personal case, the only exception to this has been with the direct to video DC animated movies. The last few releases have had 4K versions released. However, these releases have had limited exclusive Steelbooks (usually exclusive to Target) for a good few years now, and I've been collecting those Steelbooks pretty much since they started with them. Unfortunately for those newer releases, the Steelbooks don't have a 4K option. So I do check ebay for people selling just the 4K disc. But since I already spent $20 on the Steelbook release (and in my case I don't even have a 4K TV yet.... I just generally buy the 4K combo packs because eventually I will have one and I can watch the regular Blu-Ray now), I'm going to hold out for a good price on the 4K disc by itself since I have no immediate need for it - I'm just trying to put together the kind of combo pack I would have preferred in the first place.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

It doesn't have to be one or the other, but what you are willing to pay is significant. I shop for the best price in Digital, and I'm sure the Disc people do the same. Digital prices have been going up, but even here on this Site a couple of bucks are for Old Movies. Prices for 4K Movies are not coming down, and I won't buy a 4K Movie to get the Digital if I can't make at least 75% of my money back. So bottom line, if Disc Inventories don't sell Distributors will have to cut back.

Originally Posted by veritas

So even you don't value the digital copy at 25% of the value of the combo pack?

This is why digital vod services will never go mainstream (as in replace physical sales as the dominate revenue stream) even alchav21 is not willing to pay more then 25% of the physicals price for digital. The bottom line is if they stop selling physical they have to take a 75% cut in the prices they charge which IMO they will find is not worth it to just kill the used market.

Originally Posted by Vilya

He, and others like him, don't want to pay anything for digital copies. They want those of who buy discs to just give the codes away for free on sites like this one. At least they know their worth.

You guys read between the lines, I shop for the best prices in Recent Release Movies. I don't get my Digital Movies free, I think that makes them cheap. I mostly buy my Digital Movies on the MA Market, and the prices there have been going up. So yes if I buy a 4K Combo Pack, and I can't make most of my money back I'll buy it on the MA Market. I'm sure you guys shop for the best price in Disc Movies.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys read between the lines, I shop for the best prices in Recent Release Movies. I don't get my Digital Movies free, I think that makes them cheap. I mostly buy my Digital Movies on the MA Market, and the prices there have been going up. So yes if I buy a 4K Combo Pack, and I can't make most of my money back I'll buy it on the MA Market. I'm sure you guys shop for the best price in Disc Movies.

Well, sure. I mean if Best Buy has a movie for $5 cheaper than Target, then I'll either buy it from Best Buy, or if more convenient, price match it at Target (or vice versa where applicable). But I'm still otherwise buying those movies right when they come out.

In fact, while I rarely buy movies from Amazon these days (I prefer to support physical brick and mortar stores as much as possible), there is a new release of Killer Klowns from Outer Space coming out this week with a ton of new bonus features and such. Best Buy had it for $27.99. Amazon's price was about $10 less. So I ordered it from Amazon (there was a book that I wanted to preorder anyway through Amazon, so I placed it all in the same order to get free shipping).

But this is still a movie that I would have bought upon release no matter what. If $27.99 was the lowest price that any retailer was offering it for, then I would have paid that.

If it's a release that I really want, I'm not going to wait until when and if it hits the $7 bin at Walmart. Sure, I will occasionally check those bins when I happen to be there to see if there is a random title that I don't have that I wouldn't mind adding to my collection, but by no means is it (or anything similar to it) the main way that I expect to purchase most of my movies.

We all are going to have the amounts we are willing to pay, and that of course is going to vary to some extent or another based on how much disposable income someone has, how much they want a particular title, etc.

But generally speaking, I and many of those posting here on the disc side of things are willing to pay the general normal prices that new releases go for when they come out.

You are the one saying that you pretty much won't pay much more than 25% of what the physical copy costs to get your digital version. I'm not necessarily blaming you for going for good deals, but on several occasions you've made comments about how disc will die if people aren't willing to pay release-day prices for them, insinuating those of us in this thread who collect discs mostly all share that mentality, which we have demonstrated is not true for most of us, as we do buy them from major retailers.

Meanwhile, you are the one either trying to piece out a combo pack to get your digital copy for cheap, or buy codes from someone else piecing out a combo pack that they bought, to get a price lower than that of retail, and even making statements about how paying much more than those typical prices not being worth it to you.

The irony is either way (be it you buying a pack and selling off the discs, or buying the code from someone else's combo pack) you are dependent on physical media combo packs in order to get your cheap movie codes and not have to spend $20 directly from Vudu or Amazon... all while talking about how disc is "dead." It's not dead, and if it ever does die off, then there goes your cheap movie codes. And you aren't really supporting digital by doing this in the sense that you aren't giving direct sales to the digital content providers. Instead you are buying a code from a physical copy, in which the first hand sale already occurred when the person bought the combo pack, and you aren't giving a separate, unique digital purchase to the studio or service provider. Plus you are probably buying said code from someone who did pay the release day price for the physical combo pack... so that sale occurred regardless of whether or not you buy their second hand digital code.

We are actually supporting our preferred method of buying movies by buying most of them from first hand retailers, and often at release day prices, despite you repeatedly accusing us of doing otherwise and saying that we refuse to pay release day prices and are contributing to your presumed death of discs.

You, by contrast, are doing the closest things possible to a digital copy version of buying a disc for cheap from a second hand store... and you are still dependent on those codes being removed from physical copies and sold second hand to be able to do so.

Pot, meet keddle.

[veritas]

So whats the actual cost to author a blu ray disc now? I mean just pressing the disc, the cost of the disc itself and perhaps the case. All the other portions are basically a sunk cost if they want to make a digital verison anyway. (perhaps the cost to store the discs before they sell)

The cost to make digital would be maintaining multiple servers till the end of time, multiple lawyers arguing licensing every few years, maintaining tech support to fix breaks in the system which seem to happen like weekly these days, maintaining customer service to be no help at all while blaming the other other studios or distributors and the cost upgrading for free hd to 4k or any remasters for previous customers (on physical they sell those for money).

The main benefits for digital (for studios) as far as I can tell would be removal of the used market and cartel pricing. The costs for digital though appear to me to be just as massive if not more massive then the costs for physical unless they don't plan to maintain peoples rights forever.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Streaming providers like Netflix do not add one-third as many titles in an entire month.

I don't know about all that Vilya. Both Amazon and Netflix have had some new movies drop on their streaming que before they were widely available on disc. I'm constantly bumping movies down into the bottom of my BD Netflix que. And with the move, I'm considering putting it on hold. Because I'm spending more time downstairs packing up totes than I am in my Inner Sanctum watching a movie

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

I don't know about all that Vilya. Both Amazon and Netflix have had some new movies drop on their streaming que before they were widely available on disc. I'm constantly bumping movies down into the bottom of my BD Netflix que. And with the move, I'm considering putting it on hold. Because I'm spending more time downstairs packing up totes than I am in my Inner Sanctum watching a movie

I base that on two casual observations.

One is that Netflix emails me every month with what they have added, although that could just be limited to what they think I am interested in.

The second is that I usually receive a news story emailed to me that lists Netlfix's additions each month.

Edit: I did a search for Netflix additions in March; there were 116. In February, there were just 80. There are 87 scheduled for this month. That is an average of 94.33 new Netflix titles per month over the last three months.

If disc new releases averages about 65 per week and there are 4.33 weeks per month, that would equal about 281.67 new titles per month. Netflix's average of 94.33 titles per month is 33.5% of disc's 281.67 titles per month. That's pretty close to a third as many releases per month, Netflix compared to disc.

[Groot]

To chime in on the digital code purchasing debate, I've paid full price on VUDU for recent releases like The Last Jedi & Thor:Ragnarok. I'll pay $20 for a full code with all the goodies on digital and get the perk of watching it a few weeks earlier.