Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[tob]

Originally Posted by CV19

I may get round to it one day Tob. My disc collection isn't all in one place unfortunately, so I would need to organise it properly first.

No worries buddy.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys sound like Broken Records, I was down in San Diego and LA, CA visiting relatives. When I talked to them about buying and watching Movies, they said they don't buy anymore rent BD from Red Box. No one is buying 4K Discs because they don't have a 4K Player, and don't intend to buy one. As for collecting Movies, most said they watch a Movie once and that's it so why collect. They Stream from Netflix and Amazon, but most don't have Movie Streaming Collections.

Originally Posted by Vilya

I buy them and I am not a "no one." I have 53 4K UHD titles, in fact, and I will add even more. They are so common place that even the stores in the town nearest to my village, a small city of just 20,000, stock them.

What your relatives are doing is not indicative of anything nor were your random conversations with retail clerks in your neighborhood previous to this. It sounds like your relatives simply rent content: discs from Redbox and subscription streaming. Their behavior ONLY represents them, not the entire world. Ridiculous extrapolation from you as usual.

Sales data is collected and analyzed for every market and it is that hard data that tells us how a given product or service is performing. Your anecdotal observations and predictable hyperbole are only absolute in the fact that they show you to be wrong every. single. time. Yet, you keep repeating yourself as if the act of doing so will transform your fallacies. It won't, and every time you say something this absurd, you will be taken to task for it.

Originally Posted by Ender14

Apart from the verifiable facts that Vilya so generously provides EVERY SINGLE TIME you make one of your statements, the fact remains that studios would not be releasing catalog 4K discs if they were not selling.

Businesses don't generally go to the trouble of manufacturing items that, according to you, no one is buying. Nor do stores stock items that no one is buying. Nor do items that no one is buying SELL OUT and become difficult to find like the recent Matrix release.

I understand where your preferences lie, and that is fine. More power to you. But to repeatedly disseminate false information based on limited first hand accounts that contradict verifiable facts appears to be willful ignorance.

Hey don't kill the messenger, and I should have said Family & Friends. I was at two parties one in the San Diego area and one in Studio City Hollywood area. When talking to people about Movies the trend is renting or watching them on Netflix or Amazon, not buying because paying $20+ to watch it once is too much. Even the Data that Bruceames shows Sales of Discs going down fast. Here on the Site we all are Movie Buffs, and most of us have large Collections but the Average Person does not. The trend is going to be Streaming, and Original Content will be the big draw. People with Home Theaters will have their Movie and TV Shows Collection, but will find it better to store on their Digital Provider Server.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Hey don't kill the messenger, and I should have said Family & Friends. I was at two parties one in the San Diego area and one in Studio City Hollywood area. When talking to people about Movies the trend is renting or watching them on Netflix or Amazon, not buying because paying $20+ to watch it once is too much. Even the Data that Bruceames shows Sales of Discs going down fast. Here on the Site we all are Movie Buffs, and most of us have large Collections but the Average Person does not. The trend is going to be Streaming, and Original Content will be the big draw. People with Home Theaters will have their Movie and TV Shows Collection, but will find it better to store on their Digital Provider Server.

I don't want to kill the messenger, but I am tempted to him.

Your entire social circle prefers to rent. That is still a vastly insignificant sample size of the world's population. You can not make intelligent assumptions about the entire home entertainment market from just them. Although I know you will, anyway, as intelligence does not factor into your remarks.

The Home Video Sales thread shows declines in physical media sales and strong growth in subscription streaming. The rate of that decline is not "going down fast", it has been rather constant. You not only lack reading comprehension, but perspective. When it comes to purchased content, physical media still outsells digital sell-thru by slightly more than two to one. You look at that thread, like as with most things, with tunnel vision. You only see what you want to see and turn a blind eye to everything else. People that want to buy, they buy discs twice as often as they buy codes. Another fact that you just overlook and ignore.

Collectors and owners of home theaters will never want their content to reside on a remote server. That is not ownership and it means zero control over the content. It also makes one fully dependent on an ISP and a digital provider for access to content. Physical media still offers the best in audio and video quality and those who passionately love movies and TV shows will always prize the best and they will not settle for anything less.

[fatboy1111]

Originally Posted by vilya

you are back and still posting absolute nonsense. Its always one extreme or the other. I would say that you sound like a parrot senselessly repeating what it does not comprehend, but i have more respect for parrots than i do for your comments.

4k disc players are enjoying triple digit percentage sales growth, so clearly people are buying them. Sales of 4k discs have risen eight fold. You even go on to say that people have no intention of buying a 4k player! You have zero ways of knowing the intentions of other people. None. Nil. Nein. Nada. The sales data proves you to be wrong, not that that takes any effort.

I gave a citation for this sales growth several posts ago. I could repost it, but you ignored the facts then and you will keep on doing so. How can actual industry sales information compete with how your family watches movies? It is to .

Here is a newer article:

"samsung’s dan schinasi, bda’s u.s. Promotions chair, and sony’s victor matsuda, nda’s global promotions chair, noted that that sales of ultra hd blu-ray players were up 133 percent. They also pointed to an eight-fold increase of 2017 unit sales of uhd blu-ray software."

https://www.twice.com/product/physic...victor-matsuda

i buy them and i am not a "no one." i have 53 4k uhd titles, in fact, and i will add even more. They are so common place that even the stores in the town nearest to my village, a small city of just 20,000, stock them.

What your relatives are doing is not indicative of anything nor were your random conversations with retail clerks in your neighborhood previous to this. It sounds like your relatives simply rent content: Discs from redbox and subscription streaming. Their behavior only represents them, not the entire world. Ridiculous extrapolation from you as usual.

Sales data is collected and analyzed for every market and it is that hard data that tells us how a given product or service is performing. Your anecdotal observations and predictable hyperbole are only absolute in the fact that they show you to be wrong every. Single. Time. yet, you keep repeating yourself as if the act of doing so will transform your fallacies. It won't, and every time you say something this absurd, you will be taken to task for it.

a+

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

The average person never bought movies. In the 80s and 90s most people watched broadcast TV and rented VHS tapes and DVDs. Now those people have switched to streaming subscriptions instead.

None of that changes the fact that most people who buy movies (instead of renting them) continue to buy physical media instead of digital. Blu-ray and DVD sales continue to be higher than digital purchases.

None of your extensive data from talking to family, friends, and random people at stores has ever indicated that people want to have their movie collections in digital form. It's just indicated that most people are only interested in rentals and subscriptions, but that's not a new trend.

^This to infinity and beyond.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Physical media still offers the best in audio and video quality and those who passionately love movies and TV shows will always prize the best and they will not settle for anything less.

IMO, you folks are wasting your time responding to that person, people like that just don't get it and most likely never will. Calling streaming the new technology shows their mind set, most do not realize streaming preceded DVD by several years.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

IMO, you folks are wasting your time responding to that person, people like that just don't get it and most likely never will. Calling streaming the new technology shows their mind set, most do not realize streaming preceded DVD by several years.

You're right Wendell, and you have to go way back on this Tread I've always said Streaming from a Disc or Server is the same thing. It's all Digital now, and Disc Quality Streaming is here for HD. The Streaming Providers are now working on Disc Quality UHD!

[Ender14]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right Wendell, and you have to go way back on this Tread I've always said Streaming from a Disc or Server is the same thing. It's all Digital now, and Disc Quality Streaming is here for HD. The Streaming Providers are now working on Disc Quality UHD!

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right Wendell, and you have to go way back on this Tread I've always said Streaming from a Disc or Server is the same thing. It's all Digital now, and Disc Quality Streaming is here for HD. The Streaming Providers are now working on Disc Quality UHD!

I don’t like dancing pixels.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right Wendell, and you have to go way back on this Tread I've always said Streaming from a Disc or Server is the same thing. It's all Digital now, and Disc Quality Streaming is here for HD. The Streaming Providers are now working on Disc Quality UHD!

You have said this since you first cursed this thread with your appearance. It was wrong the first time you said it and it will remain wrong every time that you repeat it. It should be your epitaph. A lasting monument to colossal stupidity.

You persist in this folly despite all of the rebuttals made to your ridiculous remarks and you dismiss all of the numerous citations that prove you to be wrong each and every single time. You deserve the harsh rebukes you get for that reason alone.

For the one thousandth time: there is no "streaming" from a disc. How many effin' times do I have to show you the definition of the word "streaming" before it takes root in that block of granite attached to your neck? You are the densest material on this planet without a doubt. Pacbell of Pacific Telesis must have been the happiest of all when you finally retired in 1996. The data on a disc requires no internet connection to be accessed. It is also much less compressed than the data found on a digital provider's remote server. All of these differences, and more, have been pointed out to you in the past several times and for the briefest of moments you seemed to have understood it, but clearly you are incapable of retaining any new found knowledge.

"Streaming is a method of transmitting data from the Internet directly to a user's computer screen without the need to download it.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us...lish/streaming

Streaming in HD has NOT equaled that of blu-ray. The bitrate differences alone prove it. The audio has not been matched, either. Streaming in 4K is nowhere near to the bitrate average of a 4K disc. These are all quantifiable and verifiable facts that you have been shown countless times, but you are too obtuse to comprehend or you are deliberately trolling. You are mostly likely guilty of both.

You think streaming providers are working on matching the bitrate averages of 4K disc? They only average 25 Mbps now when streaming 4K content; a 4K disc can have bitrates as high as 128 Mbps and they average in the 80s. They will have to more than triple their current bitrate averages to accomplish this and it would annihilate people's current data caps if they could even stream that much data in the first place. It means a person would be tripling the amount of data they use, if they even lived in an area where that would be possible, and they will almost certainly have to pay much more for doing so. I have not found any articles showing that any digital provider is planning to up the bitrate averages of their streamed content, yet alone tripling it; too many people can not even stream at 25 Mbps now.

As it is, a large percentage of people can not stream at 25 Mbps, so the ISPs would also have to improve their infrastructure dramatically. ISPs have been very reluctant to make any such upgrades except in densely populated areas where they face competition from other internet providers. It is not going to happen anytime soon for much of the country. Another one of your fantasies.

Wendell is right; responding to you is a text book example of an exercise in futility. But it is also said that exercise is important.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Additionally anyone who chooses to stream instead of using discs is obviously satisfied with the quality they are getting. Why would the providers triple their bandwidth costs to provide higher bitrate streaming when their customers are satisfied with what they are providing now?

Precisley. The digital content providers are not planning to increase their bandwidth costs when the typical streaming customer is already satisfied. That same customer would not be very anxious to pay their ISP for all of that additional data, either.

The appeal of streaming lies primarily in its affordability closely followed by its convenience. These typical streaming customers are not people who seek out the highest quality; they want "bang for their buck", nothing more.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Additionally anyone who chooses to stream instead of using discs is obviously satisfied with the quality they are getting. Why would the providers triple their bandwidth costs to provide higher bitrate streaming when their customers are satisfied with what they are providing now?

Originally Posted by Vilya

Precisley. The digital content providers are not planning to increase their bandwidth costs when the typical streaming customer is already satisfied. That same customer would not be very anxious to pay their ISP for all of that additional data, either.

The appeal of streaming lies primarily in its affordability closely followed by its convenience. These typical streaming customers are not people who seek out the highest quality; they want "bang for their buck", nothing more.

You guys are stuck in your own Ancient Worlds, Bit Streaming from a Player or Server is basically the same they both require Bandwidth. The Streaming Providers are changing the Codec and using Adaptive Bitrate Streaming, where the Quality is dependant on Bandwidth and Consistency. Downloads will be compressed for efficiency. So if you don't have the Bandwidth or Consistency your Quality will be reduced. We are headed to Streaming from Servers, and Disc Quality can be achieved!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys are stuck in your own Ancient Worlds, Bit Streaming from a Player or Server is basically the same they both require Bandwidth. The Streaming Providers are changing the Codec and using Adaptive Bitrate Streaming, where the Quality if dependant on Bandwidth and Consistency. Downloads will be compressed for efficiency. So if you don't have the Bandwidth or Consistency your Quality will be reduced. We are headed to Streaming from Servers, and Disc Quality can be achieved!

Ancient worlds? Hardly, we enjoy the state of the art quality available from our 4K discs. These are presented for our viewing and listening pleasure via our fully equipped home theaters. We are not streaming from Amazon and listening through headphones.

There is nothing the same about the how data is bit streamed between a disc player and a display versus with a remote server. The latter requires the internet; a disc player does not. With a disc, I am in possession and full control of that data whereas with a server the data is not under my control nor is it in my possession. The data from a remote server is also much more compressed. More compression means lower quality.

Streaming is very compressed for cost considerations and the reality of our internet infrastructure. A download should actually be less compressed than streaming as it only involves time to accomplish the receipt of the data. Your digital content provider will not match the bandwidth of a premium certified high speed HDMI cable, period. We have been other this too many times and you are just too thick to get it.

You are also completely clueless as to what the digital content providers are doing. If you are stating that they are planning to introduce new codecs that require greater bandwidth closer to that of a 4K disc, you need to provide a citation. Without one, it is just another one of your little fantasies.

We are not "heading" to streaming from servers; that has roots as far back as 1995. A former telecom employ should know as much. I am no longer surprised in the slightest by what you do not know.

The average internet speed in the U.S. is just 10.7 Mbps- a far cry from what digital content providers recommend now. The U.S. is ranked 28th in the world for internet speeds. Over a third of Americans (35%) do not have broadband internet access.

Mostly no one gives a rats hindquarters about what streaming may yet achieve. It has not happened and therefore it does not exist. With over a third of the nation lacking broadband internet, any such hypothetical improvements will not benefit them at all.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Vilya

No one gives a rats hindquarters about what streaming may yet achieve.

Oh, I do. I think it's pretty impressive what's been accomplished so far and I can't wait to see what's next.

Originally Posted by Vilya

It has not happened and therefore it does not exist.

Yeah, people really oughta keep that kind of chatter in a sub-forum specifically devoted to Future Technologies. Maybe even in a thread devoted to discussing the Future of Home Video.

[stonesfan129]

I don't know anyone other than that one poster who said streaming is the same quality as discs. But I like being able to watch a movie on VUDU with my Xbox, desktop, laptop, tablet or phone; without having to get out a disc or rip it into a digital file.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by octagon

Oh, I do. I think it's pretty impressive what's been accomplished so far and I can't wait to see what's next.

Yeah, people really oughta keep that kind of chatter in a sub-forum specifically devoted to Future Technologies. Maybe even in a thread devoted to discussing the Future of Home Video.

Streaming technology that has not even achieved the bitrate average of a blu-ray disc, yet alone a 4K disc, after 23 years of existence impresses you? Since streaming's inception circa 1995, streaming content providers are now able to give us 25 Mbps bitrate averages and lossy audio. Blu-ray discs surpassed that over a decade ago. ISPs have provided well above that level of bandwidth for several years and content providers are still just using 25 Mbps worth for their 4K streams; they use closer to 16 Mbps for their high definition streams. What's next? Indoor plumbing? Two-ply toilet paper?

I never forbade him from discussing anything. He conflates reality with his daydreams constantly. In one post he will wrongly claim that disc quality has been achieved by streaming and in another he will say it can be achieved. It is like how he can not grasp the difference between the terms "streaming" and "bit streaming" despite his constantly telling us what a network and telecom professional he allegedly was once upon a time. It is like how he claims to be an expert on streaming providers, but it turns out he does not know how Netflix works.

I asked him to show any solid evidence that this is, in fact, what streaming content providers are planning. He doesn't know; he is just pulling this out of his own hindquarters. He rarely provides any citations for any of the silly crap he posts here. He is either too lazy to do so, or maybe, just maybe, there are none to support his statements. Maybe he should ask a clerk at Target?; they're sure to know.

He isn't discussing a future technology that is even in a planning phase. He is just repeating the same tired pipe dream that because an ISP can deliver higher bandwidth than what a streaming content provider currently utilizes that someday these same streaming content providers may use more of that available bandwidth. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, and no one knows when, but as it stands disc quality surpasses that of its streaming equivalent. I want the best that is available now and streaming ain't it. People care about real world results that they can enjoy right here, right now.

And remember: 35% of this nation of ours does not even have broadband access in the year 2018. I am sure they would be enraptured to hear about fictitious plans for an even higher level of streaming that they won't be able to use.

There are no articles that I have found, nor any links provided by him, that remotely suggest that any of this is true. There is nothing to suggest that streaming content providers plan to use more bandwidth and incur the costs that come with that decision. Such costs would have to be passed on to the consumer; a consumer who is largely content with what he already gets.

If streaming content providers did use more bandwidth, those customers living in areas that can benefit from it would almost certainly face higher internet service bills and higher streaming service bills. More data usage has to be paid for by someone.

Flying cars with individual holographic video displays is a future technology, too. Lets discuss that. Streaming providers possibly increasing their bitrates in the hopes of doing what disc has been already doing for years is a gigantic snore fest in comparison. Let's talk about something really new, not just another way to do what we already can.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

I don't know anyone other than that one poster who said streaming is the same quality as discs. But I like being able to watch a movie on VUDU with my Xbox, desktop, laptop, tablet or phone; without having to get out a disc or rip it into a digital file.

To be fair, (imo) you change your mind weekly. A few posts ago, you were back with discs. Weeks ago you were going digital completely and before that you were a disc guy.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys are stuck in your own Ancient Worlds, Bit Streaming from a Player or Server is basically the same they both require Bandwidth. The Streaming Providers are changing the Codec and using Adaptive Bitrate Streaming, where the Quality is dependant on Bandwidth and Consistency. Downloads will be compressed for efficiency. So if you don't have the Bandwidth or Consistency your Quality will be reduced. We are headed to Streaming from Servers, and Disc Quality can be achieved!

Weren’t you using a 1080i screen a short while ago? That’s ancient man!

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

To be fair, (imo) you change your mind weekly. A few posts ago, you were back with discs. Weeks ago you were going digital completely and before that you were a disc guy.

As I've said before too, I prefer the disc. But why can't I like both?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

As I've said before too, I prefer the disc. But why can't I like both?

You can, but it should be obvious by now the divides and restrictions that are going to exist. Some will just bury their heads in the sand but it is coming.

My point was, I can’t really take your posts seriously when you are backtracking every few days. You started as a staunch disc Collector, by next week you will be exclusively digital lol.