Yamaha Presence Speakers Explained

[VonMagnum]

Reviving an old thread... what's the status of presence speakers with newer Yamaha receivers? Will Atmos height speakers double as presence speakers for older material or should the newer Dolby Surround mode just be used for pretty much everything anyway and the presence speakers no longer exist or is there an option for BOTH?

Looking To Upgrade Sound

Right now I'm using an old Yamaha HTR-5960 with an outboard HDMI switchbox (with an optical feed from the switch box back to the Yamaha) until I find the "right" newer receiver and figure out exactly how I'm going to get Atmos (or something resembling it or DTS:X) installed in a room that has some obstacles going for it. The thought of using presence speakers with the current receiver really hadn't dawned on me until recently when I found out about the "dialog lift" feature that ties into it (I had to search my manual to see if it even did this and sure enough, it "barely" mentions it in the DSP parameter section for the surround modes as a parameter you can modify.)

I also found that if I modified 7-channel stereo mode so the surrounds weren't blaring at the same levels as the front channels that it ALSO lifted vocals for concert material up to screen level (i.e. the fronts are louder, but side mounted surrounds are above ear height, so at lower levels, they lift the apparent vocal up vertically while making it seem like they're still coming from the front; this only works for a modified 7-channel stereo mode, though and won't do anything for movies since they're not set up that way unless you want to watch a movie in 7-channel stereo mode, which might be OK for 2-channel material, but I'd never want to do it with anything more than that). I've attached an older photo of my system (with my old Panasonic projector; it's now an Epson 3100 and a few other gear pieces have changed as well, but you can see the placement of the speakers relative to the screen and the attache diagram shows the other details).

Basically, I'm thinking I could get a set of PSB bookshelf speaker and put them on the second shelf on either side of the screen and set the receiver to only use the rear channels for flagged EX or ES surround and that would allow dialog lift for all 5.1 movies (yeah I could try the other DSP modes again, but they've been mostly terrible thus far; I don't know how much presence speakers would change that; I usually use Dolby Music IIx for surround music or 2-channel or 7-channel stereo for music depending on which sounds best for a particular album, although I do most of my stereo recording listening on my Carver AL-III ribbon speaker system upstairs anyway).

Meanwhile, since I wanted matching front speakers, I only had one B15 extra to use for the rear surround channel and given the layout (sliding glass door in back and half bathroom) it made sense anyway to do 6.1 instead of 7.1 for the room at the time. I did run into the dreaded "rear center sounds like it's in front of you" problem with some material, but I found if i turns the speaker around backwards so I heard a bounced reflection instead, it went away and appeared to come from behind all the time, although I had to compensate in volume level).

Now with loads of newer 7.1 soundtracks and Atmos/X out there, I'm trying to figure out a way to make 7.1 and Atmos or X work for the room. Ceiling speakers are probably NOT in the cards (both looks and hard to run the wires to hide them through the ceiling which also the floor above, not an attic).

I've thought about some form of dual pair in the back only a foot or two apart (sliding door makes it difficult to do any thing else and the half bathroom offsets it so the speaker would never be as far over as the regular side surrounds). I've also thought about using the existing S50 side surrounds that are high mounted on the sides as height speakers (instead of the ceiling) given the narrow dimensions of the room and adding lower ear level surrounds nearby as the new side/bed level surrounds. That would then line up with the existing height of the front channels and rear channels and the "presence" speakers I could set up right now with the current receiver (for dialog lift) could then be the front height speaker in a 11.1 setup (making it 7.1.4 in Atmos/X).

With the main beam of the house passing by behind the couch, I don't know how effective rear height speakers would be for the main couch anyway, although conceivably some ceiling bounce speakers from the rear might work in that capacity depending on how effective it is. That would allow a selection of either front height or back height instead and/or allow presence speakers on 5.1 movies for dialog lift instead IF they still use that feature (or is it baked into the new Dolby Surround mode if you use front height?). I have some concern about matching drivers, etc. but I figure if I stick to PSB the sound will at least be similar since they're known for being flat speakers and most of their tweeters and midranges are at least similar, if not identical (e.g. the Image B15 and bipole Image S50s I use now have identical drivers).

I've also thought about looking for some used towers for the front instead, freeing up the B15s for possible use elsewhere. Looking on eBay I've seen a number of Alpha type smaller bookshelves that could be used for presence and/or different rear speakers. Finding at good combination and setup is the key. I know some think Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers should either go on the ceiling or bounced, but the high mounted side surrounds (less than two feet from the ceiling as it is) already image 'overhead' in existing soundtracks and are also even with just above the mid-point of the screen (i.e. surround effects are both coming out even with the middle of the screen and appear to be overhead at the same time given the screen position). I could put the presence/front height at the same level in the front and between lift or height functions, the sound should move in the same relative field and/or newer ear height surrounds would then line up with the front speakers below the screen (again see photo/diagram). The rear of the room is more difficult to deal with (as it is, the side bleed into the rear surround and it just seems to fly behind me with left/right cues coming from the side speakers rather than the back). They would have to sit closer together anyway due to the half bathroom and sliding door so I wouldn't get tons of separation back there, but I suppose some is better than none.

I also see Dolby's ProLogic iiz uses front height/presence channels. Is that mode preempted on newer receivers just like Prologic iix was wiped in favor of Dolby Surround (for Atmos) doing all things for all people?

Now What

So, in review, are newer Yamaha receivers still using a presence speaker setup and if so, how are they used in combination with Atmos/X? Given my layout, any recommendations on how best to proceed for adding more channels?