Police Story 1 and 2 (Eureka)

[Shingster]

I knew I should've typed "for their 4K or 2K"!

[chen lung]

Originally Posted by Shingster

I knew I should of typed "for their 4K or 2K"!

[HoldenCarver]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Again, this is something we've seen time and time again with other classic cinema genres, the restoration house having to research and ultimately guess as to what the correct colours should be when working from an OCN and not having a 100% reliable reference print to work with, leading to guesswork

Not quite colour grading, but close enough; I've seen this sort of thing a number of times with B&W films with scenes that have been shot 'day for night'. Not knowing the intention, the restoration house restores the footage as best as they can, and you end up with exterior shots in broad daylight where the actor walks inside and it cuts to his wife saying words to the effect of "Gosh, you're home late."

It's still a shame each and every time it happens, though, and the film owner should be giving the restoration house a little better guidance. But I guess they're banging up against the 'Fast - Cheap - Good' triangle and going for fast and cheap.

(Am also reminded of the story about the Star Trek pilot, where one character's green make-up wasn't showing up in the prints, and multiple make-up variations were attempted until it turned out that the chap processing the film was fixing the weird colour problems that seemed to be occurring.)

[Shingster]

Yeah it's the big drawback of working with the OCN, sure you get the better detail and finer grain but if you don't have a rock-solid point of reference you're shooting in the dark with these things, and I would bet that anything earlier than the 90s in HK cinema would be lacking in rock-solid points of reference IF the OCN is even available to begin with.

[chen lung]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Yeah it's the big drawback of working with the OCN, sure you get the better detail and finer grain but if you don't have a rock-solid point of reference you're shooting in the dark with these things,

Yes.

See my comment.

[PGW]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Either you've got red hues or blue hues, or those weird creamy-yellow hues of the Ritrovata PS2, something is always off in these releases, ya know?

They're only "off" if you don't like the color timing.

Can we at least agree that some people like (or even prefer) the warm tone of the current blu-ray, and some people like (and would prefer) the image to be cooler? I think that's pretty evident reading through these posts.

If so, aren't we arguing about something that's basically subjective?

[Shingster]

Personal preference has got NOTHING to do with how a film is supposed to look. If a transfer is off, it's off. Most home video releases of Police Story 1&2 have elements in their grading that are clearly not natural and anyone with experience of assessing transfers can spot them a mile off. The most common issue with the DVD era transfers of these films (and the SD Bluray upconverts) is a magenta push, often in the skintones. You can see this in the Kam & Ronson grabs for PS1 and PS2.

Just because I am telling people to set their display to a cooler colour temperature you assume I want these transfers to look cool? No, I suggest this to try to counter the funky white point of the Ritrovata restorations. Doing this will introduce errors in the grading for other scenes (definitely in some night time sequences), but for the most part the benefit hugely outweighs the negative. I've always stressed that the "cool setting" fix is only doing a ballpark correction, it helps but it's not a complete solution.

Anyone who thinks these Ritrovata restorations are actually accurate need to go and look at past works by the restoration house. They all have similar grading characteristics (except for those Leone transfers, which have the Ritrovision grading cranked up to 11).

Personally I'm not happy with the grading on both films (but PS1 is more pleasing as is IMO), but I don't think they're disastrous or anything (and I would agree with people that say the PS1 grading is one of Ritrovata's best). I'm just suggesting a very simple display adjustment that can offer very pleasing end results. You can choose to ignore it.

Originally Posted by PGW

If so, aren't we arguing about something that's basically subjective?

There is nothing subjective about this. That is as clear-cut a grading cock up as you will ever see.

[PGW]

"Personal preference has got NOTHING to do with how a film is supposed to look. If a transfer is off, it's off. Most home video releases of Police Story 1&2 have elements in their grading that are clearly not natural ..."

But it sounds like you're using your personal preference here in order to determine what's "right" or "wrong." I presume you don't own an original print of "Police Story" (and, even if you did, I'm not sure it would be meaningful, since the colors would have surely changed in 30 years). If we go by the majority of home video releases, the warm tint is correct, because that's what most of them show. But you say this is "wrong" because it's "not natural..." and, once again, it's only "not natural" because you don't like it.

[Shingster]

I'm not saying I know what the true colours of these films are, I'm saying that when you look at A Touch of Zen, PS1/2, Bruce Lee's HK films, and tens of other Ritrovata releases across Italian cinema and everywhere else that Ritrovata label crops up, and you see the same yellow and/or green leanings (to different degrees) in all of them and milky blacks with green seeping into the blacks, you don't need to know the true grading for these films to know they're all off! The ONLY thing all these films from different industries in different eras have in common is that "restorated in 4K/2K by L'Immagine Ritrovata" seal of death.

[Shingster]

And just because I know what direction this thread is heading in, I'll just ask members here to try this simple quiz:

Can you guess which one Ritrovata worked on?

Can you guess which one Ritrovata worked on?

[psychik]

Often, I prefer the colors and dynamism of the japanese cut of Police Story in HD. Sometimes the new 4k restoration is too dark and dull, but the definition of the new 4k master is outstanding for a Hong Kong movie of that period.

[reason108]

Originally Posted by Shingster

And just because I know what direction this thread is heading in, I'll just ask members here to try this simple quiz:

Can you guess which one Ritrovata worked on?

Can you guess which one Ritrovata worked on?

I’m on my phone but I think the first example is US extended release and the Criterion version? If I get this right, do I get some candy?

[Rathbone]

Originally Posted by Shingster

And just because I know what direction this thread is heading in, I'll just ask members here to try this simple quiz:

Can you guess which one Ritrovata worked on?

Can you guess which one Ritrovata worked on?

In case of OUATIA the Ritrovata doesn't have an issue compared to Warner's 'red death'. Have you considered that your equipment is probably not calibrated correctly?

I admit that PS has a very subtle push to yellow but making such a big fuzz about it? There are releases with bigger issues out there.

[PGW]

Originally Posted by Shingster

I'm not saying I know what the true colours of these films are, I'm saying that when you look at A Touch of Zen, PS1/2, Bruce Lee's HK films, and tens of other Ritrovata releases across Italian cinema and everywhere else that Ritrovata label crops up, and you see the same yellow and/or green leanings (to different degrees) in all of them and milky blacks with green seeping into the blacks, you don't need to know the true grading for these films to know they're all off! The ONLY thing all these films from different industries in different eras have in common is that "restorated in 4K/2K by L'Immagine Ritrovata" seal of death.

Well, that's a good point. Looking at the examples you gave in another post, I can see there's an inarguable similarity in the color - if this is truly consistent in all of the films they've worked on, you're right - that suggests that we're not looking at the true colors because ALL of those films wouldn't have the same color tint to them.

[Owenjohnston]

Does anyone have any idea when the replacement disc ships? I'm putting off watching this entirely until the replacement arrives.

[Shingster]

Originally Posted by Rathbone

In case of OUATIA the Ritrovata doesn't have an issue compared to Warner's 'red death'. Have you considered that your equipment is probably not calibrated correctly?

Have you considered getting your eyes checked out?

There's nothing subtle about the push in PS2's case. PS1 I agree.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Have you considered getting your eyes checked out?

There's nothing subtle about the push in PS2's case. PS1 I agree.

Call me crazy (I own both discs, but haven’t actually watched either yet), but I rather like the look of the OUATIA Ritrovata screenshots. It’s very probably way off being accurate, but the Ritrovata disc does seem to give the film a very cinematic, classy and “rich” quality.

Anyway, e-mailed about getting a replacement disc, so I’ll probably hold off watching Ritrovata Story 1 until I get the new disc.

[Geoff D]

[edit] I was replying here to professorwho professing his love for the look of the new OUATIA extended scenes specifically, in case anyone thinks I'm talking to Indy. But the prof's post has stepped into the quantum leap accelerator, and vanished...[/edit]

Yikes. Really? It's not about something looking super sharp and precise because the main parts of OUATIA are nowhere near being any kind of "eye candy" (although the detail from the newer transfer is undeniable vs the soft old transfer), it's about having it look like the film hasn't spent the last few years at the bottom of a river. Those extended scenes are in such poor shape it's not even funny, and not even the best restorers in the world can get what are essentially grotty dupes from a workprint looking anything like camera original so I'm not laying that at Ritrovita's door. By all means love the look of the new scenes, all green and washed out to shit, but they're not supposed to be like that, not in a million years.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Excluding the new scenes, do you not like the rest of it at all?

[Magic Monkey]

Somebody wrote this on Eureka Facebook (in the audio problem announcement):

I noticed that the audio on the Cantonese 5.1 Soundtrack of Police Story 2 is faulty as well: The pitch is a half step too low.
But then again, I watched both movies with their original Cantonese mono soundtracks, as it should be done. And they are fine.

Is he correct about the pitch? He's obviously ½ wrong about mono tracks.