List of UHDs that contain HDR10+

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by gkolb

It’s hard to know an unknown. The first HDR10+ discs are being released soon , but until someone does an objective (or probably subjective) head to head comparison between these two displays, and reports back on it, we will never know.

I have the same display as Peter, and Sony’s algorithm makes HDR10 generally look fantastic.

If HDR10+ ever gains REAL traction, and not just 3-6 disc releases, perhaps next generation displays will include Dolby Vision and HDR10 +. The thing is that as displays get higher and higher nit capabilities, the need for dynamic metadata decreases. CES 2019 is just around the corner, the prototype displays often show improvements that will end up in production models in the future.

Is the Sony algorithm you speak of only in displays or is it part of their disc players as well?

[jibucha]

doubtful

• display manufacturers are generally in conflict in this regard
• they are 'one or the other'
• business priorities prevail
• personally, i am with LG on this (no HDR10+ support) as they arguably have a superior approach/solution

Originally Posted by gkolb

It’s hard to know an unknown. The first HDR10+ discs are being released soon , but until someone does an objective (or probably subjective) head to head comparison between these two displays, and reports back on it, we will never know.

I have the same display as Peter, and Sony’s algorithm makes HDR10 generally look fantastic.

If HDR10+ ever gains REAL traction, and not just 3-6 disc releases, perhaps next generation displays will include Dolby Vision and HDR10 +. The thing is that as displays get higher and higher nit capabilities, the need for dynamic metadata decreases. CES 2019 is just around the corner, the prototype displays often show improvements that will end up in production models in the future.

[jibucha]

displays (only)

Originally Posted by avs commenter

Is the Sony algorithm you speak of only in displays or is it part of their disc players as well?

[Geoff D]

LG have been in bed with Technicolour for a while now and the 'dynamic' system in their TVs is based on the 'Advanced HDR' processing tech AFAIK. It's a system that applies an inverse EOTF of whatever the incoming signal may be (HLG, PQ) to decode it into a raw state, analysing the image as it does so, and then rebuilding it for an HDR output best suited to the display.

Does it achieve the same thing as a dynamic metadata system? Yes. Does it have anything to do with actual branded HDR10+ content? No, because you wouldn't need an HDR10+ disc in order to activate this feature, the whole point is that it analyses the signal itself rather than looking at a suite of bespoke metadata.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by gkolb

... The thing is that as displays get higher and higher nit capabilities, the need for dynamic metadata decreases. CES 2019 is just around the corner, the prototype displays often show improvements that will end up in production models in the future.

Originally Posted by ray0414

Miss the micro dimming with quantum dot color filter demo? ...

(Samsung 8K micro dimming, 10,000 leds [4,000 nits] with quantum dot color filters on the left)

Here's an example of what a 4,000 nit display on the LEFT can do with an image compared to current tech on the right.
This image is from CES 2018.

[TitusTroy]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Here's an example of what a 4,000 nit display on the LEFT can do with an image compared to current tech on the right.
This image is from CES 2018.

are consumer displays really going to get as high as 10,000 nits?

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by TitusTroy

are consumer displays really going to get as high as 10,000 nits?

Don’t know if any current tech would hit that high, but it is the top end of the DV maximum mastering range I believe.

With the picture above, 4,000 seems like an admirable goal!

[jibucha]

yes (i have already seen it; early this year - almost a year ago)

note :: it's not what most everyone expects/thinks (ultimately an enhancement)

to the point :: display technology will get there - a lot sooner than currently expected

Originally Posted by TitusTroy

are consumer displays really going to get as high as 10,000 nits?

[jibucha]

Active HDR

• no :: this is 'untrue'
• LG Active HDR is not 'fairly' referenced as an 'workaround'
• LG Active HDR implementation 'predates any announcement of HDR10+ (as also did Sony Active HDR)
• Active HDR 'is not an 'HDR10+ workaround' it was an earlier 'forward-thinking' solution to the inherent limitations/errors of HDR10 static metadata
• Active HDR, by 'not using' the HDR10 metadata of respective content, rather an application of display/processor solution, within the display/processor of the display, predating the HDR10+ solution of similarly using computers to do the same (etc), but in contrast, via dynamic metadata, was 'pro-actively first', therefore should not be referenced as an 'workaround' having recognized a problem, solving it (early-on)
• Active HDR is also an display/processor centric solution to transforming HD/SDR content to display HDR enhancements, on supporting UHD displays - for consistency of viewing
• LG Active HDR, essentially, was intended that 'all content' be displayed in 'HDR' dynamically (i hesitate to use this 'charged term')

original post - - edited 12/5/18 @ 6:30pm CST


no this is 'untrue' :: LG Active HDR implementation 'predates any announcement of HDR10+ (as does Sony Active HDR)

Active HDR 'is not an 'HDR10+ workaround' it was a 'forward-thinking' solution to the inherent limitations of HDR10 static metadata, by creating dynamic metadata within the display/processor of the display, predating the HDR10+ solution of similarly using computers to do the same (etc)

Originally Posted by TitusTroy

LG's implementation is an unofficial HDR10+ workaround...

[jibucha]

update :: actually, i was wrong in this regard as originally posted

• LG/Sony Active HDR 'do-not create' the dynamic metadata from the static metadata of HDR10
• LG/Sony Active HDR :: do, reading/referencing the original content information, without reading/referencing the metadata tags, render an similar end-result HDR viewing experience akin to Dolby Vision and the possibility forth-coming HDR10+ solutions that rely on dynamic metadata tags, with their respective display/processor-centric designs

original post - - edited 12/6/18 @ 2am CST

actually, LG Active HDR 'creates' the dynamic metadata from the static metadata of HDR10 'essentially' as does 'any other approach' as Samsung/Sony

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Except it's not "metadata" that LG is doing. It's dynamically changing the picture based on existing HDR10 data. It will ignore the HDR10+ data. Sony does something similar.

[jibucha]

yes :: and, importantly, before Samsung (HDR10+)

essentially :: two different approaches to the limitation of HDR10 (make your choice?)

Originally Posted by TitusTroy

yes I keep saying it's not HDR10+ but it's a better implementation of HDR10...and that's better then not having Active HDR on the display...it's almost like LG has created their own version of HDR10+

[jibucha]

unfair and untrue :: the LG Active HDR (in production displays) 'pre-dates' HDR10+ (announcements) - you actually have it backwards

i disagree :: it is relevant to this thread/topics, unless censorship prevails, or mis-information for that matter

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Exactly, LG is reinventing the wheel here.

It has nothing to do with HDR10+ that is the subject of this topic

You can't have HDR10+ if the display and/or the player ignore the HDR10+ metadata

[jibucha]

Active HDR & "metadata" (correction(s) & apology)

• first :: my apology for 'mis-using the term metadata' in Active HDR processes/solutions :: i was incorrect (technically)
• second :: Active HDR 'does not 'create dynamic metadata or process in it's functionality
• third :: Active HDR is an 'display/processor' solution to the inherent limitations of both HD/SDR & UHD/HDR10, with an intent of consistency of viewing performance with UHD/Dolby Vision - picture quality, that does so 'without either referencing or using metadata', rather working otherwise with the original content
  
  
• yes (now essentially in agreement?) "What you were talking about is internal processing. LG and Sony have their own algorithms to process incoming HDR10 material and dynamically (no though) adjust them."
• Active HDR and HDR10+ :: essentially, they either in the content/read or within the display itself, offer an 'more accurate' HDR solution
• so, the end result displayed (differing approaches), is essentially the same (result - as displayed/presented :: beyond that, the hype/PR/politics/information, etc - get 'very involved and convoluted - as i perceive it)
• to be clear :: while Dolby Vision/HDR10+ embed 'into' the content and decode using metadata, Active HDR, whether LG or Sony displays, simply 'create' similarly in real-time (without using metadata) producing the same resulting picture performance
• note (further thoughts) :: i think the Active HDR solution(s) in the display/processor to have obvious advantages, as over time the potential for improvements in technology (firmware/processors/displays/etc), refining the picture at almost any point in time :: (HDR10/HDR10+ are both 'embedded/baked in' which limits them to the moment of encoding - permanently, without any possibility of improvement)
• Dolby Vision is forward-thinking, so it's already future-proofed (to the extent that future-proofed is possible - 2021+?) for the forcible future of content/display performance
• note :: "dynamically adjust them" is either incorrect or not the best choice of words; is it not? :: they both (approaches/solutions), independently 'process from the non-metadata of both HD/SDR & UHD/HDR10 content to internally, improve/create HDR performance on-the-fly that is more pleasing to viewing than otherwise offered (is this not so?)
  

original posting :: edited 12/6/18 @ 1am CST


"What you were talking about is internal processing. LG and Sony have their own algorithms to process incoming HDR10 material and dynamically adjust them."

LG/Sony and Samsung HDR10+ (essentially, they're 'all' either in the content/read or within the display itself

regardless, the end result displayed, is essentially the same (beyond that, the hype/PR/politics/etc, get 'very involved and convoluting)

to be clear :: while Dolby Vision/HDR10+ embed 'into' the content and decode, Active HDR, whether LG or Sony displays, simply 'create' similarly in real-time producing the same resulting picture performance

note (further thoughts) :: i think the Active HDR solution in the display/processor to have obvious advantages, as over time the potential for improvements (firmware/processors/displays/etc) refining the picture at almost any point in time (HDR10/HDR10+ are both 'embedded/baked in' which limits them to the moment of encoding)

Dolby Vision is forward thinking, so it's already future-proofed for the forcible future of content/display performance

note :: "dynamically adjust them" is incorrect; is it not? (they both independently 'create dynamic metadata internally, on-the-fly)

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

But you keep using the term "metadata" - metadata is additional data embedded in the source video stream (Dolby Vision or HDR10+) that, when decoded by a compatible display, instructs the TV on how to display the HDR on a scene by scene or shot by shot basis. What you were talking about is internal processing. LG and Sony have their own algorithms to process incoming HDR10 material and dynamically adjust them.

Just an FYI.

[TheSweetieMan]

A discussion about HDR10 and Dolby Vision...

[KubrickKurasawa]

Sounds coool....I'll get it in a few years

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by jibucha

unfair and untrue :: the LG Active HDR (in production displays) 'pre-dates' HDR10+ (announcements) - you actually have it backwards

i disagree :: it is relevant to this thread/topics, unless censorship prevails, or mis-information for that matter

Mis-information? You just don't know what you are talking about.

HDR10+ is based on metadata put on disc by the STUDIO (Fox, Warner whatever), not created on the fly by the display

It's not the same thing.

[TitusTroy]

Originally Posted by jibucha

Active HDR

no this is 'untrue' :: LG Active HDR implementation 'predates any announcement of HDR10+ (as does Sony Active HDR)

Active HDR 'is not an 'HDR10+ workaround' it was a 'forward-thinking' solution to the inherent limitations of HDR10 static metadata, by creating dynamic metadata within the display/processor of the display, predating the HDR10+ solution of similarly using computers to do the same (etc)

good point but in the end it turned out to be a workaround for HDR10+ even though that might not have its intention in the beginning...the LG displays are a rarity in that they really tried to give consumers a lot of very future proof features (Active HDR, Technicolor, HLG etc) instead of just doing what TV manufacturers normally do which is to fix a few bugs but leave the majority of new features and major bug fixes for the following years new model forcing consumers to buy a new TV

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Mis-information? You just don't know what you are talking about.

HDR10+ is based on metadata put on disc by the STUDIO (Fox, Warner whatever), not created on the fly by the display

It's not the same thing.

the point is that in the end the picture quality of a UHD Blu-ray with native HDR10+ implementation on a Samsung display and LG's Active HDR implementation is going to be prety much indistinguishable to the end viewer...that's all that really matters

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by TitusTroy

the point is that in the end the picture quality of a UHD Blu-ray with native HDR10+ implementation on a Samsung display and LG's Active HDR implementation is going to be prety much indistinguishable to the end viewer...that's all that really matters

How do you know? No HDR10+ disc is available....

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

How do you know? No HDR10+ disc is available....

Just found out that my son's blood group is HDR10 positive and he suffers from Dolby Vision.

[MisterXDTV]

Let me put it this way....

If HDR10+ is useless because of "Active HDR" then the same logic applies to Dolby Vision as used by Warner and Sony (metadata only layer)...

I'm OK with that logic, by the way....