Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Streaming apps are included with virtually everything and that has been the case for many years. I am surprised that they don't come installed on my toaster.

They do, you just don't have toaster compatible inputs on your TV.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

They do, you just don't have toaster compatible inputs on your TV.

Not surprising that I lack toaster connectivity; my TV is a 2016 model, but it does have 3D!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

For those that are looking to add Dolby Atmos/DTS:X to their system here are some demo files you may find useful. Click here and look around, there are Atmos, DTS:X, THX, etc. files available. I have the Dolby Atmos 2016 demo disc and can tell you they are pretty rare. If you find on eBay expect to pay quite a bit for them.

Warble Test Tones

Here are some warble tones I made awhile back for quick checks of sub-woofers. They are provided in .WAV and .FLAC format. The tones start at 16Hz and end at 250Hz, they are on ISO ⅓ octave centers, span ⅓ octave for each center and warble at a 5Hz rate. Each tone is preceded by a voice announcement stating the center frequency, is recorded at -6dB below 0dBFS using 16bit, 48KHz. Each tone last 11 seconds and that includes a ½ second fade in and ½ second fade out. This was done so it will not cause thumps at the beginning and end of each tone.

If you use a good SPL meter be sure to set it to the “C” scale and add back the values from the table to those you recorded when playing the test tones. Example, if you measure 73dB at 25Hz then add 4.4dB for a value of 77.4dB for 25Hz. FLAC file here, WAV file here.

As detailed and as useful as all of that is, all I can picture is you warbling and it makes for a strange sight indeed. Get three friends together and you can form a warbler's quartet.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

3D is dead, toast is the future.

[Show spoiler]

Coming soon to Disney Plus.

Needs some...

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Streaming apps are included with virtually everything and that has been the case for many years. I am surprised that they don't come installed on my toaster.

Well your Oppo didn't, and it's not around anymore. I think the Graphics and Sound Chip on better High End Equipment will make a big difference in Streaming Quality.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well your Oppo didn't, and it's not around anymore. I think the Graphics and Sound Chip on better High End Equipment will make a big difference in Streaming Quality.

I was waiting for you to bring that up and you are reliably predictable. Oppo stated clearly why they did not include streaming apps on their players from the very beginning and their omission had nothing to do with the entire Oppo Digital division's ceasing to make new products that included far more than just disc players.

Oppo included an HDMI pass thru port so that its customers could instead connect a dedicated streaming device (among other devices), such as a Roku, directly to the player. Many streaming advocates feel that dedicated streaming devices do a better job at keeping apps updated, that the apps are supported for longer, and they also include an extremely wide selection of apps that no disc player or smart TV alone provided.

Oppo recognized that the most popular apps, such as Netflix, Vudu, Amazon, Hulu, were already included on everyone's smart TV as well as on their gaming consoles. Including them on the Oppo itself would only be redundant. Omitting apps that you already had elsewhere allowed Oppo to put all of their resources into the disc player itself. Both the Oppo 203 and the Oppo 205 sold out entirely from the manufacturer without any streaming apps and they now command very high prices when you can find one at all. Most Oppo customers were not concerned about streaming apps; they had them already on other devices.

You don't need the apps on your ancient 2013 model year Panasonic blu-ray player because your newer smart TV includes them. Those concerned with keeping apps updated for the longest time and with the widest possible app selection choose a dedicated streaming device.

When I choose to go slumming and stream something, I turn on my TV and my AVR- that's it. All of the apps that I use are already installed on the TV. There is no need for me to power on my PlayStation nor my other disc players. Convenience, after all, is one of streaming's biggest selling points.

Better graphics and audio chips can only do so much with an inferior file source such as what you obtain from streaming. It is why DVDs can only look somewhat better when viewed on a 4K TV while still falling well short of what a blu-ray accomplishes. Those same better chips also keep disc well ahead of their streaming counterparts because the source file on the disc is of higher quality to begin with.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

all I can picture is you warbling and it makes for a strange sight indeed.

The 16Hz and 20Hz tones can make one dizzy and nauseated, if not careful it will have you upchucking.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

You don't need the apps on your ancient 2013 model year Panasonic blu-ray player because your newer smart TV includes them. Those concerned with keeping apps updated for the longest time and with the widest possible app selection choose a dedicated streaming device.

When I choose to go slumming and stream something, I turn on my TV and my AVR- that's it. All of the apps that I use are already installed on the TV. There is no need for me to power on my PlayStation nor my other disc players. Convenience, after all, is one of streaming's biggest selling points.

Better graphics and audio chips can only do so much with an inferior file source such as what you obtain from streaming. It is why DVDs can only look somewhat better when viewed on a 4K TV while still falling well short of what a blu-ray accomplishes. Those same better chips also keep disc well ahead of their streaming counterparts because the source file on the disc is of higher quality to begin with.

I disagree, I loved my Panasonic BD Player for that reason. It had great Streaming Apps with a Market Place to add any Streaming App you wanted, and it kept them well updated. I was ready to buy a Panasonic UHD Player just for the Streaming Apps, until I found out Sony's Streaming Apps were just as good. Do you think it's only a coincidence that the only two manufacturers that have new UHD Players are Panasonic and Sony? I think the market is wide open for better Streaming Devices, because that Source File will get better and Bandwidths will keep going up for some. That Rude Awakening is starting to happen!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I disagree, I loved my Panasonic BD Player for that reason. It had great Streaming Apps with a Market Place to add any Streaming App you wanted, and it kept them well updated. I was ready to buy a Panasonic UHD Player just for the Streaming Apps, until I found out Sony's Streaming Apps were just as good. Do you think it's only a coincidence that the only two manufacturers that have new UHD Players are Panasonic and Sony? I think the market is wide open for better Streaming Devices, because that Source File will get better and Bandwidths will keep going up for some. That Rude Awakening is starting to happen!

My smart TV has an app store, as does yours, and so do most disc players. But none of those stores come close to offering the selection of streaming apps that a dedicated device does. Compare your Panasonic disc player's app selection to that of a Roku and you will instantly see the vast difference in selection between them. Dedicated streaming devices are well known for keeping their apps updated and supported for far longer than any TV or disc player does.

Your newer Sony TV almost certainly includes every streaming app that you use and that makes their presence on your old blu-ray player redundant. You may like having them on both devices, but it is unnecessary.

As for CES 2019, of course the announcements about new 4k disc players are inconsequential. We have 29 player models now and 11 computer drives to service the 6.2% market share that 4K discs currently hold. CES did not promote any AVRs or speakers, either, but that certainly does not mean there is no interest in them. CES primarily features tech products that offer something truly new and, hopefully, beneficial to the market. Not much new to report about AVRs, speakers, and 4K disc players this year. Even the addition of HDR10+ support for 4K players can be accomplished by firmware updates. Oppo is looking into adding that support for their 4K players even now; I think their current beta firmware might already.

The growth of 4K disc sales, 83% globally, and the growth of 4K disc player sales resulting in a supply shortage for some higher end models, more than shows that the interest in them is solid.

There are a lot of "ifs" to your imagined streaming utopia that have not been realized. Streaming source files are unchanged going into a fourth year now as evidenced by their stagnant bitrates over this period. More bandwidth, where it is even possible, will cost more money and its limited availability will make its adoption a slow one. Even then, there is no guarantee that streaming providers plan to use any of that extra bandwidth.

Lastly, if this streaming wonderland that you fantasize about is so awesome, why do you keep describing it as a "rude awakening?" It's a good thing you never worked in advertising; you would've starved promoting things that way.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by octagon

Yes. You're normalizing streaming. You're treating it like it's no big deal. Like it's just another service.

Enjoy life as part of The Collective.

That's ridiculous. I'm a big fan of disc and I've still got 500 LPs and 1000 CD's in my living room, but there are instances when a disc makes sense and instances when streaming makes sense. I don't buy discs to have them sit on a shelf -- I buy them to watch.

In terms of movies, unless a disc is under $10, I no longer buy them unless I think I'm going to watch it at least twice. For a film that I purposely didn't bother to see in a theatre because it wasn't well received or I didn't care about it, I will watch it on Netflix if it's available. A film that's part of the film history canon is another matter - those I will still buy.

But what I do is irrelevant because it's just an anecdote. What is relevant is what the overall market does and what the overall market is doing is abandoning physical media. One cannot overlook the fact that the video business was $11 billion in North America in 2009 and only $4.1 billion in 2018. There most definitely will be fewer releases as this is still a hit driven business. In 2018, the top 100 Blu-ray titles garnered 51.1% of total industry units and 63.5% of the dollars. The top 200 titles probably hit about 80% of dollars. There's not all that much left for the thousands of other titles released. At some point, the studios will say, "why bother" for releases that are not going to be hits.

The other issue is that with AT&T owning Warner and being primarily interested in streaming services that will drive subscriptions, I don't think they're going to care too much about physical media. I don't think they're going to care about TCM either. The tell-tale sign will be whether they kill the Warner Archive DVD-R service.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

That's ridiculous. I'm a big fan of disc and I've still got 500 LPs and 1000 CD's in my living room, but there are instances when a disc makes sense and instances when streaming makes sense. I don't buy discs to have them sit on a shelf -- I buy them to watch.

In terms of movies, unless a disc is under $10, I no longer buy them unless I think I'm going to watch it at least twice. For a film that I purposely didn't bother to see in a theatre because it wasn't well received or I didn't care about it, I will watch it on Netflix if it's available. A film that's part of the film history canon is another matter - those I will still buy.

But what I do is irrelevant because it's just an anecdote. What is relevant is what the overall market does and what the overall market is doing is abandoning physical media. One cannot overlook the fact that the video business was $11 billion in North America in 2009 and only $4.1 billion in 2018. There most definitely will be fewer releases as this is still a hit driven business. In 2018, the top 100 Blu-ray titles garnered 51.1% of total industry units and 63.5% of the dollars. The top 200 titles probably hit about 80% of dollars. There's not all that much left for the thousands of other titles released. At some point, the studios will say, "why bother" for releases that are not going to be hits.

The other issue is that with AT&T owning Warner and being primarily interested in streaming services that will drive subscriptions, I don't think they're going to care too much about physical media. I don't think they're going to care about TCM either. The tell-tale sign will be whether they kill the Warner Archive DVD-R service.

4 billion doesn’t sound like an abandoned business to me. :

You also ignoring the boutique labels that are selling out of releases very fast.

Like I said, (in my opinion) you have had a downer on disc since I joined this forum. You continually come across as biased, in my opinion, because you haven’t once reflected on the state of digital HD.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Like I said, (in my opinion) you have had a downer on disc since I joined this forum. You continually come across as biased, in my opinion, because you haven’t once reflected on the state of digital HD.

Agreed. He has yet to mention the fact EST has not made up for the difference in revenue, the fact that Flixster is no more, same for Go90, Sony will shut down Sony Pictures Store at the end of this month and Walmart is has dropped plans for a subscription streaming service. Linear pay TV is losing subs to subscription streaming but the BIG money is still with linear pay TV and broadcast.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Agreed. He has yet to mention the fact EST has not made up for the difference in revenue, the fact that Flixster is no more, same for Go90, Sony will shut down Sony Pictures Store at the end of this month and Walmart is has dropped plans for a subscription streaming service. Linear pay TV is losing subs to subscription streaming but the BIG money is still with linear pay TV and broadcast.

Netflix know this, they have signed a deal to be on Sky (our biggest pay tv provider) boxes in the U.K.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

That's ridiculous.

Of course it's ridiculous. It was meant to be ridiculous.

I'm not going to recap the last several hundred pages of this thread but suffice to say I'm not generally in the 'slippery slope, the sky is falling' camp and that post - in proper context - was a clear expression of that.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by tomysis

I used to be 100% media guy. I recently found that I was watching more cloud based than media so I ended up converting my entire collection except for a handful of select movies and tend to get more UV based content than anything else.

You have gave up a superior format for a format that has a very limited lifespan before subscription streaming takes over completely (digital wise) with exclusives and first run films being the weapon of choice.

I consider that a very unwise move.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by octagon

Of course it's ridiculous. It was meant to be ridiculous.

I'm not going to recap the last several hundred pages of this thread but suffice to say I'm not generally in the 'slippery slope, the sky is falling' camp and that post - in proper context - was a clear expression of that.

Which in itself was a silly post considering I’m spending £700 on Blu-ray/4K films and £200 on tv based Blu-ray.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Which in itself was a silly post considering I’m spending £700 on Blu-ray/4K films and £200 on tv based Blu-ray.

Doesn't matter. You're feeding the beast. You're normalizing Netflix and treating it like just another cable channel. You're acting like streaming TV shows is no big deal and won't result in dire consequences.

Which is of course perfectly reasonable.

Any slippery slope argument that says watching Black Mirror on Netflix will further enrich Netflix and bump up their viewing statistics and that will lead to Netflix further encroaching on talent and resources in their attempts to offer more and more original programming and that talent drain will eventually kill traditional studios and end movie-making as we know it would of course be absurd on its face.

Which was exactly my point.

As you well know, I'm sure.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by octagon

Doesn't matter. You're feeding the beast. You're normalizing Netflix and treating it like just another cable channel. You're acting like streaming TV shows is no big deal and won't result in dire consequences.

Which is of course is perfectly reasonable.

Any slippery slope argument that says watching Black Mirror on Netflix will further enrich Netflix and bump up their viewing statistics and that will lead to Netflix further encroaching on talent and resources in their attempts to offer more and more original programming and that talent drain will eventually kill traditional studios and end movie-making as we know it would of course be absurd on its face.

Which was exactly my point.

As you well know, I'm sure.

Netflix IS a cable channel. No different to HBO for example. There original remit was replacing blockbuster stores with a online movie store. That has changed beyond recognition imo. They are now just another channel.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Netflix IS a cable channel. No different to HBO for example. There original remit was replacing blockbuster stores with a online movie store. That has changed beyond recognition imo. They are now just another channel.

So watching a movie on Netflix is no different than watching a movie on HBO? It's just another cable channel?

It's The End Of The World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine) - YouTube

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

But what I do is irrelevant because it's just an anecdote. What is relevant is what the overall market does and what the overall market is doing is abandoning physical media. One cannot overlook the fact that the video business was $11 billion in North America in 2009 and only $4.1 billion in 2018. There most definitely will be fewer releases as this is still a hit driven business. In 2018, the top 100 Blu-ray titles garnered 51.1% of total industry units and 63.5% of the dollars. The top 200 titles probably hit about 80% of dollars. There's not all that much left for the thousands of other titles released. At some point, the studios will say, "why bother" for releases that are not going to be hits.

Except that has not been the case. bruceames has reported already that the number of titles being released on blu-ray has actually increased and that physical media overall has averaged over 10,000 titles per year for several consecutive years.

"the number of titles released have held steady, at close to 10,000 titles per year."

"The number of Blu-ray titles released continues to go up every year even though sales are down about 25% from it's peak several years ago."

See his post here:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=173

Blu-ray titles released in 2015 totaled 2,165. Blu-ray titles released in 2018 totaled 2,711. That's a 25.2% increase in the number of titles released on blu-ray since 2015. If you add in the 9,819 titles released on dvd in 2018 the grand total of released titles for 2018 is 12,530.

You routinely omit facts, such as the ones above, that do not support your predictions and omissions such as these only discredit your comments and suggest a biased view. If you are trying to present yourself as the rational analyst here, you can not do so by cherry picking your facts.

10,000+ annual releases is by no stretch of the imagination an abandonment of physical media. $4.1 billion in sales, and that's just domestically, is still a substantial sum. Yes, revenue from purchases is down, all forms of purchase combined are down, but a decline is not the same thing as an extinction. People will continue to buy physical media, digital copies, and utilize subscription streaming; none of them are going away. Most people use a mixture of these choices and they will continue to be able to do so. There will always be enough people that want to own their content to ensure the continued viability of physical media. SVOD will remain dominant, but it will never be the only option.