Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Movies and TV shows should never be treated as consumables but that's what a digital only future will bring. Each movie and TV show will be discarded as soon as it drops in popularity and profitability.

Do you have any examples of this actually happening?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I think for the General Public VHS was the introductory and DVD was the Boon, in Movie watching and Collecting. Most people just want to watch a Movie or Show at a reasonable cost, they are really not into collecting anymore.

Even during the DVD peak years I don't think most people were ever into collecting. Most of my family for example accumulated stacks and stacks of VHS tapes and DVDs but much of that was primarily through inertia.

Tapes and discs were a cheap, easy way to have stuff they liked on hand. Convenient can be a dirty word in these parts but convenience was a huge driver of the popularity of VHS and DVD.

Originally Posted by avs commenter

You are confusing consumer with collector. There has never been a better time to be a consumer of movies/TV

I would say there's never been a better time to be a collector either. Whether you want to look at the hardware or content we have an embarrassment of riches.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

Do you have any examples of this actually happening?

Hundreds of movies and TV shows have been removed from sale. No one can buy them anymore.

The studios and distributors haven't started removing a lot of titles from people's collections yet, but digital distribution is still in it's adolescence. They are still trying to get customers to give up physical media and spend more money on digital. Therefore they are treading lightly.

Not enough time has passed for each title anyway. Everything available on iTunes and Vudu has been there for less than 15 years. There is no chance that anything has been losing money for a long period of time.

No one knows what the future will bring anyway. If DVD (which made over 20 billion dollars each year at the height of its popularity) can fall then so can iTunes and Vudu (which make less than 3 billion each year). Thinking that studios will stop supporting DVD and Blu-ray but continue supporting all of your digital purchases is a huge leap of faith.

Additionally the niche I'm buying (Blu-ray and DVD) will continue to work in the future without the ongoing support of the studios and distributors. The niche your buying (iTunes and Vudu) will cease to function if the studios and distributors drop support.

As an aside to show how much a corporation can value disc space: Nintendo has dropped support for downloadable games on Wii and will soon disallow re-downloading them. All of those games combined take less disc space than a single 4K movie and yet they still didn't think it was worth the expense to continue supporting them.

[DVD Phreak]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

that is definetly one of the differences but what is scarier is that it does not even need to get that far https://twitter.com/drandersgs/statu...70646243414016

Apple didn't delete that guy's movies. Some of his movies had region restriction. That guy changed his residency, and that was the reason for the removal of those titles. Apple support should've probably explained to him better. But this was NOT a case of Apple removing titles you had bought due to licensing issues.

But the bigger issue is that Apple indeed CAN remove your titles that way. Vudu and Amazon too. Their user agreements state that they can remove titles if they lose rights to stream the titles. It may rarely happen, but it can.

If all depends on what the right holders want to do. They may prevent sales of certain titles but not streaming, or they may prevent both sales and streaming. If the right holders really don't want people to see certain titles, even people who have bought the titles, they CAN, because they are the ultimate owners.

Same goes for the digital game business. If Steam decides to remove a game from your library so you can never download it again even if you have bought it, it CAN. But it also rarely happens.

I'm guessing there has to be some extraordinary circumstance that causes the right owner to exercise this "nuclear option." A simple licensing expiration may not do.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by octagon

I would say there's never been a better time to be a collector either. Whether you want to look at the hardware or content we have an embarrassment of riches.

By design it can never become a worse time to be a collector. Even if 10 years from now all physical media stops being made (which I certainly don't expect) then at that point we will have access to everything that's out now and everything that is released in the next 10 years.

Since the studios and distributors have absolutely no ability to ever take any physical media away they can never make things worse, they can only stop making things better. I absolutely hope and expect things to continue improving, but our collections are safe either way.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Hundreds of movies and TV shows have been removed from sale. No one can buy them anymore.

The studios and distributors haven't started removing a lot of titles from people's collections yet, but digital distribution is still in it's adolescence. They are still trying to get customers to give up physical media and spend more money on digital. Therefore they are treading lightly.

Not enough time has passed for each title anyway. Everything available on iTunes and Vudu has been there for less than 15 years. There is no chance that anything has been losing money for a long period of time.

No one knows what the future will bring anyway. If DVD (which made over 20 billion dollars each year at the height of its popularity) can fall then so can iTunes and Vudu (which make less than 3 billion each year). Thinking that studios will stop supporting DVD and Blu-ray but continue supporting all of your digital purchases is a huge leap of faith.

Additionally the niche I'm buying (Blu-ray and DVD) will continue to work in the future without the ongoing support of the studios and distributors. The niche your buying (iTunes and Vudu) will cease to function if the studios and distributors drop support.

As an aside to show how much a corporation can value disc space: Nintendo has dropped support for downloadable games on Wii and will soon disallow re-downloading them. All of those games combined take less disc space than a single 4K movie and yet they still didn't think it was worth the expense to continue supporting them.

Looks like you can see the future and have it all figure out

[mrveggieman]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

By design it can never become a worse time to be a collector. Even if 10 years from now all physical media stops being made (which I certainly don't expect) then at that point we will have access to everything that's out now and everything that is released in the next 10 years.

Since the studios and distributors have absolutely no ability to ever take any physical media away they can never make things worse, they can only stop making things better. I absolutely hope and expect things to continue improving, but our collections are safe either way.

I sure hope so but I'm not as optimistic as you.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

Looks like you can see the future and have it all figure out

With digital there is uncertainty. The studios and distributors control whether you are able to watch the content you've already purchased and whether you can continue to buy the content they've already released. Their continued support is absolutely necessary.

With physical there isn't. All of the discs that have already been released will continue to work for many many decades and can be redistributed via the used market. None of the existing discs need the studios' or distributors' continued support to function.

Originally Posted by mrveggieman

I sure hope so but I'm not as optimistic as you.

You think all of the existing Blu-ray players and discs are going to stop working?

[mrveggieman]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

With digital there is uncertainty. The studios and distributors control whether you are able to watch the content you've already purchased and whether you can continue to buy the content they've already released. Their continued support is absolutely necessary.

With physical there isn't. All of the discs that have already been released will continue to work for many many decades and can be redistributed via the used market. None of the existing discs need the studios' or distributors' continued support to function.



You think all of the existing Blu-ray players and discs are going to stop working?

No but I am concerned that they could very well stop making blu ray players and discs and when the players you have stop working you will be out of luck.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

With physical there isn't. All of the discs that have already been released will continue to work for many many decades and can be redistributed via the used market. None of the existing discs need the studios' or distributors' continued support to function.

You think all of the existing Blu-ray players and discs are going to stop working?

Sure your Discs will last, but what about the Hardware Manufacturers? Some of the major ones are out of the game, and they are starting to have some problems. Do you think they will continue support in a declining Disc Market?

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I don't understand how anyone can be concerned about being able to play their discs in the future when literally hundreds of millions of players have been made.

Sure wish that I kept my Sony SL-HF900 βetamax, Pioneer CLD-900 LaserVision and Heath AJ-1510 FM tuner, all were donated or gave away. All were in like new condition. I had no idea they would bring the money they do on the current used market. I still have my JVC HM–DH5U D-VHS D-Theater machine and a few titles that have not made it to Blu-ray.

Wonder what a used VUDU title will bring.

[NightMovie901]

I'm new here but I'm certainly not new to the whole "home movies" thing. In fact I go back to the beginning.


1. VIDEO TAPE

We started with Betamax which was superior quality but higher cost and controlled by fewer parties. As a result VHS won the format war and the that story was over. The movie studios were terrified that home video was going to kill their businesses when in fact it was the biggest boon they were ever going to see. During the VHS days I collected about 25 VHS tapes total and rented a zillion from local videos stores and then Blockbuster when they pretty much took over the entire market. Video tapes obviously had a lot of problems such as size, lack of direct access to parts of the content, and lifespan.

2. DVD

I was a very early adopter of DVD. Smaller format, direct access, higher quality, and no real lifespan issues to worry about with DVDs. Blockbuster was slow to adopt which meant more buying and less renting of DVDs in the early days. Everyone was building some type of collection even if by accident. I currently have a few hundred DVDs. I have about 100 of them out and the rest boxed up in a closet because they take up too much room. I think those $5 bins at Walmart and $29 DVD players really got pretty much everyone into owning a lot of DVDs. If you weren't buying them you were renting them in the all you call eat method called Netflix. Life was great for awhile.

3. BLU-RAY

So the HD-DVD vs Blu-ray battle had to take place first of course and then another format war was won and we got slightly smaller cases and higher definition movies. The "Guy Tax" was created. Of course the content providers used this as an opportunity to raise prices. I remember when they were trying to get $29.99 for all the new Blu-ray movies as opposed to $14.99-$19.99 for the DVD versions. Pricing definitely played a high role in the slow adoption of blu-rays. First, you had to buy a player for $200+ and then all of the content was going to cost you more. Rentals were scarce in the beginning. Netlflix stocks of blu-rays were low causing longer wait times for the higher quality versions which was bothersome. I think it is safe to say that Blu-ray just never became quite as big as DVD was in it's heyday. Plus, people were saying WTF??? I have 100s of DVDs and now I am supposed to upgrade them all to blu-rays? On top of this, due to the piracy problems with DVDs the new format's anti-piracy measures were hell on early gen Blu-ray movies. Can you say 3 minute load times? WTF???

Much like VHS I probably own 25 blu-rays total.

4. 4K BLU-RAY

Eventually regular blu-ray prices started to come down as the content providers realized they were not going to be able to get $29.99 for blu-rays and prices stabilized more near the DVD pricing of $19.99 for new movies. The UHD/4K came out and the content providers decided that it was time for another "Guy Tax" and started selling the new 4K releases at $29.99 and higher. Meanwhile, we still have DVDs on the shelf and blu-rays are getting cheaper but still not really the $5 bin yet. So now we're supposed to replace all of our blu-rays with 4K blu-rays? Nah, I think we'll just stick to new released on 4K.

5. ITUNES (DIGITAL COPIES)

Apple has been a market disrupter in everything they have touched. They completely changed the music business, along with Amazon they change the book industry, Mobile phones, tables, etc. and iTunes Movies is doing the same thing to the movie business. When I started seeing these "Digital Copy Included" labels on discs I frankly paid no attention to it. In fact when I bought the 4K Bluray for Dunkirk I gave the code to my brother because I said "I don't need this". However, I feel that was the bridge that got people in the ecosystem. And while I could not fathom watching a full movie on a tiny screen there are a whole lot of people of another generation who have no problem doing this. So I started looking into this iTunes Movie stuff and seen that it wasn't half bad outside of the pricing premium being put in place once again.

Which brings me to ... Physical vs. Digital

I've always been for physical discs. All the pros have been listed in this thread and being able to access, use, and control them without anyone else has always been the best reason for me to own the discs. I have done the same thing with 95% of my PS4 and XBox games too.

But the time has come ... I'm all in on digital at this point. I'm just tired of upgrading, storing, and dealing with all of these discs for all of these years. Also, let's be honest these movies aren't really that important in the grander scheme of things (shock and horror!!!) and we are basically already at the always connected to the internet stage. Sure, I can spend a bunch of time and money and rip all these discs, build some sort of home media server, and all that jazz but the older I get the more I just want things to be fast and easy.

I promise you I was pretty hardcore when it came to physical but its just not going to be the future. There actually may be a day like 10 years from now when we look back and reflect about how we used to buy movies on discs the same way we talk about buying music on CDs. (Remember those?)

Your Thoughts?

P.S. Yes, I know I left out Laser Discs, DIVIX, and others.

[Wendell R. Breland]

For those familiar with Amazon, how do you redeem MA codes at Amazon?

Why did Amazon stop making the Amazon Fire TV Ultra HD pendant?

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by NightMovie901

Your Thoughts?

By that one would assume the best quality picture and sound is not high on your priority list. Welcome to the world of Walmart and MacDonald's.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by NightMovie901

I'm new here but I'm certainly not new to the whole "home movies" thing. In fact I go back to the beginning.


1. VIDEO TAPE

We started with Betamax which was superior quality but higher cost and controlled by fewer parties. As a result VHS won the format war and the that story was over. The movie studios were terrified that home video was going to kill their businesses when in fact it was the biggest boon they were ever going to see. During the VHS days I collected about 25 VHS tapes total and rented a zillion from local videos stores and then Blockbuster when they pretty much took over the entire market. Video tapes obviously had a lot of problems such as size, lack of direct access to parts of the content, and lifespan.

2. DVD

I was a very early adopter of DVD. Smaller format, direct access, higher quality, and no real lifespan issues to worry about with DVDs. Blockbuster was slow to adopt which meant more buying and less renting of DVDs in the early days. Everyone was building some type of collection even if by accident. I currently have a few hundred DVDs. I have about 100 of them out and the rest boxed up in a closet because they take up too much room. I think those $5 bins at Walmart and $29 DVD players really got pretty much everyone into owning a lot of DVDs. If you weren't buying them you were renting them in the all you call eat method called Netflix. Life was great for awhile.

3. BLU-RAY

So the HD-DVD vs Blu-ray battle had to take place first of course and then another format war was won and we got slightly smaller cases and higher definition movies. The "Guy Tax" was created. Of course the content providers used this as an opportunity to raise prices. I remember when they were trying to get $29.99 for all the new Blu-ray movies as opposed to $14.99-$19.99 for the DVD versions. Pricing definitely played a high role in the slow adoption of blu-rays. First, you had to buy a player for $200+ and then all of the content was going to cost you more. Rentals were scarce in the beginning. Netlflix stocks of blu-rays were low causing longer wait times for the higher quality versions which was bothersome. I think it is safe to say that Blu-ray just never became quite as big as DVD was in it's heyday. Plus, people were saying WTF??? I have 100s of DVDs and now I am supposed to upgrade them all to blu-rays? On top of this, due to the piracy problems with DVDs the new format's anti-piracy measures were hell on early gen Blu-ray movies. Can you say 3 minute load times? WTF???

Much like VHS I probably own 25 blu-rays total.

4. 4K BLU-RAY

Eventually regular blu-ray prices started to come down as the content providers realized they were not going to be able to get $29.99 for blu-rays and prices stabilized more near the DVD pricing of $19.99 for new movies. The UHD/4K came out and the content providers decided that it was time for another "Guy Tax" and started selling the new 4K releases at $29.99 and higher. Meanwhile, we still have DVDs on the shelf and blu-rays are getting cheaper but still not really the $5 bin yet. So now we're supposed to replace all of our blu-rays with 4K blu-rays? Nah, I think we'll just stick to new released on 4K.

5. ITUNES (DIGITAL COPIES)

Apple has been a market disrupter in everything they have touched. They completely changed the music business, along with Amazon they change the book industry, Mobile phones, tables, etc. and iTunes Movies is doing the same thing to the movie business. When I started seeing these "Digital Copy Included" labels on discs I frankly paid no attention to it. In fact when I bought the 4K Bluray for Dunkirk I gave the code to my brother because I said "I don't need this". However, I feel that was the bridge that got people in the ecosystem. And while I could not fathom watching a full movie on a tiny screen there are a whole lot of people of another generation who have no problem doing this. So I started looking into this iTunes Movie stuff and seen that it wasn't half bad outside of the pricing premium being put in place once again.

Which brings me to ... Physical vs. Digital

I've always been for physical discs. All the pros have been listed in this thread and being able to access, use, and control them without anyone else has always been the best reason for me to own the discs. I have done the same thing with 95% of my PS4 and XBox games too.

But the time has come ... I'm all in on digital at this point. I'm just tired of upgrading, storing, and dealing with all of these discs for all of these years. Also, let's be honest these movies aren't really that important in the grander scheme of things (shock and horror!!!) and we are basically already at the always connected to the internet stage. Sure, I can spend a bunch of time and money and rip all these discs, build some sort of home media server, and all that jazz but the older I get the more I just want things to be fast and easy.

I promise you I was pretty hardcore when it came to physical but its just not going to be the future. There actually may be a day like 10 years from now when we look back and reflect about how we used to buy movies on discs the same way we talk about buying music on CDs. (Remember those?)

Your Thoughts?

P.S. Yes, I know I left out Laser Discs, DIVIX, and others.

Number 5. Apple haven’t changed the movie industry. Not at all. They are not even top digital retailers in the U.K.

Also, speak for yourself about the importance of movies. I consider film to be of the upmost importance. You sound like the type of guy who just jumps on the bandwagon. I dont see any real level of commitment from you to obtain high quality media.

Also, no offence but you sound out of touch. The masses have already moved on from Digital HD. Netflix, Hulu, Youtube and Amazon are top with Disney and Apple about to come out to play.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

For those familiar with Amazon, how do you redeem MA codes at Amazon?

Why did Amazon stop making the Amazon Fire TV Ultra HD pendant?

You redeem the codes at MA, and the Movie Ports over to Amazon because of your Link. Amazon doesn't have anywhere to redeem codes. As for the Fire TV Ultra pendant, I guess it was not selling that well and the Fire Stick is still available with more options. I'm not big on Wireless, but for Mobile Devices it should be okay.

You also had a question on Sony Ultra, the store has closed down and I was checking my Apps on my Sony UHD TV and that App is not there. They have an area called Sony Select with Apps they support like Sony Crackle.

[avs commenter]

For a lot of people, buying digital is more of a replacement for going to the theater rather than choosing to buy disc. Spider verse was released on digital 2 months after it debuted in theaters and you can ‘own’ it for half the cost of taking a family of 4 to the theater all from your home. The idea of years from now losing access is likely not a huge deal for many

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

For a lot of people, buying digital is more of a replacement for going to the theater rather than choosing to buy disc. Spider verse was released on digital 2 months after it debuted in theaters and you can ‘own’ it for half the cost of taking a family of 4 to the theater all from your home. The idea of years from now losing access is likely not a huge deal for many

So why not rent then? Save money.

Also, you guys forget that outside the U.S, Digital HD doesn’t have a locker system. It’s throwing away good money after bad.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

So why not rent then? Save money.

Also, you guys forget that outside the U.S, Digitall HD doesn’t have a locker system. It’s throwing away good money after bad.

Rentals are almost $7 now and not available until discs come out. So basically 2-3 weeks later.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

Rentals are almost $7 now and not available until discs come out. So basically 2-3 weeks later.

I think you are wrong. We are just not seeing that type of growth.