Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

same here. If it is a new film I might even pause them (so that I can watch the trailers), for a rewatch by the time everything is ready (popcorn/drinks..) and I am sitting on on my chair comfortably they are usualy done.

Yep, exactly.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by alchav21

It's all about Files and Folders, and I know Wendell likes to make everything very complicated but it's not. Bit Streaming is Bit Streaming, you put those same Files from a Disc on a Server and you will get the same results. I know there are differences now, but the basics are the same.

not really

1)
the internet, web and networks were created with the idea that you have very little information (where order does not matter) going a very short distance.

if you have a window PC start command prompt and write ping http://www.blu-ray.com (or any other site you want that allows pinging)

you will get back several responses with probably different times.
like



if you are reading a site like this or receiving an e-mail all the info is split up into many different pieces all, some will take a different path, some will get there a bit faster or slower and some might be lost and asked to be resent. But once all the pieces (aka the last/slowest piece) get there you can see it all, so it does not matter if you get the last bits first and the first bits last.


Now if we are talking a simple high speed ethernet cable then you are right but even adding a router and having your home movie server stream to a TV there will be degradation in the final quality because some bits might not make it in time and when you go through an internet connection it gets even worst.

2) even with a simple direct ethernet connection things are still not 100% the same, a disk has bits that are sent directly to the player, the ethernet cable sends IP packets to the display, those IP packets have overhead so streaming from a local server will always need more BW then reading off of a disk.

3) Let's forget all that and assume I can make a pixel to pixel comparison of my projector and all is 100% equal the two still won't be truly the same. One system has a micro reality while the other a macro one. What I mean is if I am watching a UHD BD in my HT nothing else matters, it does not mater if someone else is watching a different UHD BD in the family room. But if I am streaming in my HT and someone else is streaming in the family room it will affect BW and latency for my viewing. And if my GF is watching an HD 3d film in the bed room there two if all are BD it does not matter but if all are streaming I need a network that can support all 3, what if the kids are watching BDs (streaming) in their bedrooms, what if my Dad in in his "apartment"...?


4) let's assume we have net 2.0, latency is magically none existent BW is enough to DL the whole movie in a picosecond... there will still be one HUGE difference, you can' never own a digital copy, no matter how much you paid for it, since the film can be taken away from you for any reason, but you can own a physical copy.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

You are confusing a CDN with Netflix cache computers. A CDN will probably look like this:

Netflix cache computers are very limited in space and only work for content that happens to be in the cache. If it is not on the cache then it has to come from the CDN.

Originally Posted by alchav21

It's all about Files and Folders, and I know Wendell likes to make everything very complicated but it's not. Bit Streaming is Bit Streaming, you put those same Files from a Disc on a Server and you will get the same results. I know there are differences now, but the basics are the same.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

not really

1)
the internet, web and networks were created with the idea that you have very little information (where order does not matter) going a very short distance.

Now if we are talking a simple high speed ethernet cable then you are right but even adding a router and having your home movie server stream to a TV there will be degradation in the final quality because some bits might not make it in time and when you go through an internet connection it gets even worst.

You guys brought up some interesting points, that's why I like FTTH and my ISP provides me a Switch straight to their Intranet Hard Wired from a Port to my UHD TV. So I get all the BW, and I don't see any Degradation. Disc is better now because of the higher Bitrates for PQ and Sound, but Streaming keeps improving.

Wendell talked about the Content Distribution Network, making my way of thinking outdated. Like you said Data travels in Packets with Priority Addressing and Time Stamping, where Server proximity really doesn't matter. With the proper Fiber Equipment, it will seem like the Content Servers are located right in your ISP. So you guys don't have to worry we are living in the greatest of times, and accessing all your Movies and TV Shows will only get better!

[mrveggieman]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Comcast ha e just bought Sky who have a growing online subscription service. They are about to offer a free NBC Universal streaming service to all Sky customers.

By the way, I bet you a 1,000 pounds cable is still here in 10 years.

Just like landline phones are still here but that doesn't mean that both technologies aren't long past their prime.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by mrveggieman

Just like landline phones are still here but that doesn't mean that both technologies aren't long past their prime.

Who cares? If something has a use, it has a place. Most of us are probably past our prime.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys brought up some interesting points, that's why I like FTTH and my ISP provides me a Switch straight to their Intranet Hard Wired from a Port to my UHD TV. So I get all the BW, and I don't see any Degradation. Disc is better now because of the higher Bitrates for PQ and Sound, but Streaming keeps improving.

Wendell talked about the Content Distribution Network, making my way of thinking outdated. Like you said Data travels in Packets with Priority Addressing and Time Stamping, where Server proximity really doesn't matter. With the proper Fiber Equipment, it will seem like the Content Servers are located right in your ISP. So you guys don't have to worry we are living in the greatest of times, and accessing all your Movies and TV Shows will only get better!

Judging by all the daily complaints in the digital section, I very much doubt that.

By the way, Wendell already told you bit rates are NOT rising.

[mrveggieman]

Originally Posted by mrveggieman

Just like landline phones are still here but that doesn't mean that both technologies aren't long past their prime.

My point is cable TV sucks compared to streaming just like have a landline sucks compared to having a smart phone.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

And streaming sucks compared to Blu-ray but both are extremely likely to continue.

Streaming only sucks compared to Blu-ray is very dependent on Solid BW and set up!

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by mrveggieman

My point is cable TV sucks compared to streaming just like have a landline sucks compared to having a smart phone.

Cable might suck for you, it doesn’t for me. I get nice crisp 4K that doesn’t have to buffer or degrade if there are drops in my internet connection. I can record six programmes at the same time, watch live sport in 4K and have access to stacks of on demand content. Soon the interface will have voice search and also incoperate Netflix.

Not sure how a landline sucks either. It’s like saying a microwave oven sucks, or a fridge freezer sucks. It has a purpose.

Finally, once Disney and all the rest have jumped onboard, streaming will become cable 2.0

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Streaming only sucks compared to Blu-ray is very dependent on Solid BW and set up!

No it sucks full stop. It’s the limited bit rate that kills it. Count those dancing pixels! Not to mention all the banding! Ugly, very ugly.

[Forestt]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Streaming only sucks compared to Blu-ray is very dependent on Solid BW and set up!

Streaming is more comparable to landline and blu-ray is more like a smartphone. Beside the technical stuff:

Streaming is just watching like landline is just talking without extra stuff.
On a smartphone you can do extra things as with a blu-ray you have a bonus features.

With streaming and landline you can't personalise much. But with a smartphone you can since there are many models and variations avaiable. With blu-ray you can build upa collection and personalise your home cinema set, also in many variations

Also a streaming library is less fun to browse and show/share with friends/family.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

It’s the limited bit rate that kills it.

That poster is the most clueless poster that I have ever encountered in > 30 years of BBS posting. Very recently I gave him this link and asked what the significant data was and he did not respond.

It should have been obvious the major leader was Verzion - FiOS, fiber cable, at 4.56 Mbps. Comcast, which is cable, was a 4.52 Mbps, almost the same thing. For reference, a DVD can run at 9.5 Mbps.

The Netflix ISP Speed Index lists the average prime time bitrate for Netflix content streamed to Netflix members during a particular month. For ‘Prime Time’, we calculate the average bitrate of Netflix content in megabits per second (Mbps) streamed by Netflix members per ISP. We measure the speed via all available end user devices. For a small number of devices, we cannot calculate the exact bitrates and streaming via cellular networks is exempted from our measurements. The speed indicated in the Netflix ISP Speed Index is not a measure of the maximum throughput or the maximum capacity of an ISP.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Disc is better now because of the higher Bitrates for PQ and Sound, but Streaming keeps improving.

True

like I pointed out earlier there is a lot more than just BR that plays a role at making disks better

true, it keeps on improving, but why does it matter, the goal posts wioll always keep moving. late 80's it was VCD, late 90's it was DVD, late 00's it was BD late 10's it is UHD BD.


and like SWendell pointed out (after your post)

It should have been obvious the major leader was Verzion - FiOS, fiber cable, at 4.56 Mbps. Comcast, which is cable, was a 4.52 Mbps, almost the same thing. For reference, a DVD can run at 9.5 Mbps.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

It should have been obvious the major leader was Verzion - FiOS, fiber cable, at 4.56 Mbps. Comcast, which is cable, was a 4.52 Mbps, almost the same thing. For reference, a DVD can run at 9.5 Mbps.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

True
like I pointed out earlier there is a lot more than just BR that plays a role at making disks better

[u] true, it keeps on improving, but why does it matter, the goal posts wioll always keep moving. late 80's it was VCD, late 90's it was DVD, late 00's it was BD late 10's it is UHD BD.

That Netflix Chart just shows what I was talking about, the Average Bitrate which means there are higher and lower ones. Wendell ran another survey on Streaming Bitrates from Netflix, and mine came in around 16Mbps. So most people are satisfied with SD and Bitrates around 5Mbps. When my BW was below 25Mbps, my Streaming was bad like you guys talk about Buffering, Pixilation, and Degradation. My Streaming didn't improve until my BW was well above 50Mbps. I now have 85Mbps Symmetrical, and my Streaming is Fantastic. That's all I'm saying, if you don't have the BW or proper set up you will not get the best Streaming.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That Netflix Chart just shows what I was talking about, the Average Bitrate which means there are higher and lower ones. Wendell ran another survey on Streaming Bitrates from Netflix, and mine came in around 16Mbps. So most people are satisfied with SD and Bitrates around 5Mbps. When my BW was below 25Mbps, my Streaming was bad like you guys talk about Buffering, Pixilation, and Degradation. My Streaming didn't improve until my BW was well above 50Mbps. I now have 85Mbps Symmetrical, and my Streaming is Fantastic. That's all I'm saying, if you don't have the BW or proper set up you will not get the best Streaming.

You are even wrong about that. Those low bit rates are 720p and 1080p. Around 2.5 for 720p and 3.5-3.8 for 1080p.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That Netflix Chart just shows what I was talking about, the Average Bitrate which means there are higher and lower ones. Wendell ran another survey on Streaming Bitrates from Netflix, and mine came in around 16Mbps. So most people are satisfied with SD and Bitrates around 5Mbps. When my BW was below 25Mbps, my Streaming was bad like you guys talk about Buffering, Pixilation, and Degradation. My Streaming didn't improve until my BW was well above 50Mbps. I now have 85Mbps Symmetrical, and my Streaming is Fantastic. That's all I'm saying, if you don't have the BW or proper set up you will not get the best Streaming.

So "the best Streaming" on your "proper set up" is 16Mbps. 4K Blu-ray is generally in the 60-80 Mbps range and can go as high as 128 Mbps. Netflix has no incentive to drastically increase their spending to increase bitrates when people like you already think that "Streaming is Fantastic".

Audio bitrates further prove that streaming providers have no interest in competing with the quality of physical media. They all use lossy audio with low bitrates when it wouldn't even cost significantly more to use lossless HD audio. But streaming customers think it's good enough (or in your case fantastic) so none of the providers will ever likely upgrade.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

So "the best Streaming" on your "proper set up" is 16Mbps. 4K Blu-ray is generally in the 60-80 Mbps range and can go as high as 128 Mbps. Netflix has no incentive to drastically increase their spending to increase bitrates when people like you already think that "Streaming is Fantastic".

Audio bitrates further prove that streaming providers have no interest in competing with the quality of physical media. They all use lossy audio with low bitrates when it wouldn't even cost significantly more to use lossless HD audio. But streaming customers think it's good enough (or in your case fantastic) so none of the providers will ever likely upgrade.

We were talking about Blu-ray Quality, which just Averages at 20Mbps. Netflix is the only Provider that has Bitrate measurements, the others like MA you have to go by what it looks like and Sounds. Don't ever say never, because Tomorrow may just surprise you. Streaming is coming on Strong and it will only get better!

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That Netflix Chart just shows what I was talking about, the Average Bitrate which means there are higher and lower ones.

You missed, again! The point was to show you there was little difference between fiber and cable.

Wendell ran another survey on Streaming Bitrates from Netflix, and mine came in around 16Mbps.

Did you mean to say, “I ran another test.” If so, what test and what time of day?

So most people are satisfied with SD and Bitrates around 5Mbps. When my BW was below 25Mbps, my Streaming was bad like you guys talk about Buffering, Pixilation, and Degradation. My Streaming didn't improve until my BW was well above 50Mbps. I now have 85Mbps Symmetrical, and my Streaming is Fantastic. That's all I'm saying, if you don't have the BW or proper set up you will not get the best Streaming.

Take a standard ⅝" water hose and open the spigot wide open and stick the end of the hose into a ½" water line, with an adapter, and you will get a reduction of water flow, now stick the ⅝" water hose into a ¾, 1, 2, 3 inch water line and there will be no reduction nor increase in water flow.

The same with streaming, once there is a consistent ISP data flow that exceeds your streaming data rate then increasing you ISP data rate beyond that will not do anything for your streaming. Below is a problem that occurred with my ISP recently. Note the prime time slowdown on 2/28, a speed test between me and my ISP showed about 60 Mbps during this same time period. That is the reason I tell people to use the Netflix test, during prime time or look at their Netflix speed, while the desired content is playing, using the diagnostics display if their device has that feature.

Date                    Download       Upload        Test Server
3/1/2019 10:23:27 AM    58.03 Mbps    4.17 Mbps    Atlanta, GA
3/1/2019 10:22:20 AM    58.07 Mbps    4.26 Mbps    Washington, DC 
2/28/2019 9:20:50 PM    3.51 Mbps      4.20 Mbps    Washington, DC
2/28/2019 9:17:57 PM    1.63 Mbps      3.28 Mbps    Atlanta, GA
2/19/2019 10:21:15 AM   57.68 Mbps    4.24 Mbps    Atlanta, GA
1/28/2019 2:12:20 PM    57.88 Mbps    4.19 Mbps    Washington, DC

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

We were talking about Blu-ray Quality, which just Averages at 20Mbps.

That is BS, I refuted that quite sometime back. There is no fixed rate like streaming has, there can be very substantial differences between titles.

[Steedeel]

Dynamo, Octagon etc.. can you guys remember my discussion about speed watching content two years ago? I was reading a article today that stated 19% of the pod cast audience now listen to podcasts sped up (at least 1.25).
19%, wow. That was from just four years ago when a small section of people did that. My argument was that speed watching will carry on that trend with the likes of YouTube and Netflix through a browser hosting the option to speed up content from 1.25-2.00.

It seems I’m not as crazy as you guys made out. Transfer those podcast numbers to video in say, four to five years and the scenario I described starts to come true. Declining attention spans combined with more and more video content means visual content will go the same way as podcasts. A huge percentage of people will be watching films and tv shows in fast forward (with pitch correction) by 2030 imo. Maybe most of the population.

The Sky is indeed falling. The race to get through content for millennials and younger is going to screw it for all of us.