Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[SunShines]

Originally Posted by DVD Josh

Well, one outputs DV correctly and the other does not, for one.

The Panny has the HDR Optimizer which depending on your display may or may not show a benefit.

The Panny is more "rugged" in terms of construction which you definitely pay for.

Until and unless Panny figures out the DV issue I wouldn't buy one.

Wait... Are you saying that the $280 UBP-X700 is actually better than the $570 UB820...? Or did I completely misunderstand?

Originally Posted by sapiendut

I have calibrated enough projectors and TVs that originally use Sony 800 and Sony 1000 to know that from my experience the HDR optimizer will help ANY display out there. Some a lot more than others.

I'm sorry for being a bit slow... Is this also a vote in favor of the Sony UBP-X700?

[sapiendut]

1. X700 is ONLY better on the DV playback
2. All my clients used to use 800 and 1000, and every one that moved to 820 and 9000 benefits from the HDR Optimizer

[dlbsyst]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

1. X700 is ONLY better on the DV playback
2. All my clients used to use 800 and 1000, and every one that moved to 820 and 9000 benefits from the HDR Optimizer

Sapiendut, do you think the X700 outputs DV 4k Blu-rays as well as the Oppo? I'm disappointed that my Panasonic has imperfect DV so might get the X700 to use exclusively for Dolby Vision discs if it's better.

[Clark Burk]

l wonder how much leeway Dolby is allowing the player manufacturers in tweaking the Dolby playback they provide? Does Dolby have so much control that Panasonic is powerless to change its current configuration without Dolby’s certification? I thought most players had to have their players certified before being allowed to have Dolby playback. Did Dolby drop the ball?? Let’s not throw Panasonic under the bus so quickly.

[DVD Josh]

Originally Posted by SunShines

Wait... Are you saying that the $280 UBP-X700 is actually better than the $570 UB820...? Or did I completely misunderstand?

No, I'm saying that the X700 plays DV back correctly whereas the 820 does not.

I kept my X700 because I felt my ZD9's own mapping did a very admirable job over the 820 and the X700 had Sony integration and proper and forcable DV.

But that's just me and YMMV.

[Robert Zohn]

I don't see any issue with Dolby Vision 4k HDR Blu-ray disc playback on the UB820 or UB9000. In fact, we're selecting clips from 4K BD titles that are mostly Dolby Vision/Dolby Atmos to show at our JVC NX9/Panasonic UB9000 demo tomorrow, Saturday, 3/23. We're also including one or two HDR10/DTS:X scenes mixed in to our theater presentation.

Look forward to seeing @punisher and other Blu-ray.com members at our HDR cinema demonstration tomorrow!

[dlbsyst]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I don't see any issue with Dolby Vision 4k HDR Blu-ray disc playback on the UB820 or UB9000. In fact, we're selecting clips from 4K BD titles that are mostly Dolby Vision/Dolby Atmos to show at our JVC NX9/Panasonic UB9000 demo tomorrow, Saturday, 3/23. We're also including one or two HDR10/DTS:X scenes mixed in to our theater presentation.

Look forward to seeing @punisher and other Blu-ray.com members at our HDR cinema demonstration tomorrow!

Well that's interesting. So you don't agree with Vincent Teoh because he says the DV output is too bright and it's clipping detail? I would test this out myself but I have no other DV capable 4k Blu-ray player to compare it too. I'm thinking I should just get the Sony X700 and make my own comparison.

[Robert Zohn]

Not sure what to say about that, but in all of the UB820 and UB9000 store demo systems and my personal home systems I have not ever thought the image looked anything but normal and of course, wonderful as 4K Dolby Vision HDR is.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I don't see any issue with Dolby Vision 4k HDR Blu-ray disc playback on the UB820 or UB9000. In fact, we're selecting clips from 4K BD titles that are mostly Dolby Vision/Dolby Atmos to show at our JVC NX9/Panasonic UB9000 demo tomorrow, Saturday, 3/23. We're also including one or two HDR10/DTS:X scenes mixed in to our theater presentation.

Look forward to seeing @punisher and other Blu-ray.com members at our HDR cinema demonstration tomorrow!

What JVC projector supports DV HDR?

Look back at the comments there were several that seem to point to a validation of a possible issue Robert after the video. see this post.

Have Fun at the demonstration!

[Robert Zohn]

Thanks ^ and I understand we're not using DV's metadata as we are applying Panasonic's UB9000's HDR Optimizer which also uses the base layer HDR10 to apply the HDR tone mapping.

I agree in looking back at my adding that we are using DV BD titles was not relevant, but my statement stands that with the UB820s and UB9000s on all of my store's showroom DV capable TVs and all of my home systems, DV looks perfectly fine to me.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

1. X700 is ONLY better on the DV playback
2. All my clients used to use 800 and 1000, and every one that moved to 820 and 9000 benefits from the HDR Optimizer

I'll be moving next month from a Sony X-800, which I'll leave for CD/SACD playing only, to a Panasonic DP UB424EGK, I think it's the German reference for the 420. It's cheap on Amazon Germany and it has the HDR Optimizer that will sure make my mid range 49" Samsung set look better while playing UHD BD's with HDR. And it also adds HDR10+ that my Samsung TV supports so that means I'll be able to watch the Alien UHD BD on its full glory.
I also suspect that the Sony X-800 doesn't do Chroma Upsampling quite right while I've read that Panasonic players excell at that.

[sapiendut]

Yes, chroma upsampling on the Pana is visibly better than Sony.

The Sony X700 DV is about the same as Oppo (perhaps slightly less so) but my problems with the X700 setting needed to be switched on manually for DV annoys me. Plus the player can be loud at times and on occasion can’t play disc makes me give up in the player. Besides, while the DV is wrong on the Panasonic, it’s only noticeable if you “pixel peep”, it’s not jarring at all; not unless you know exactly where to look andbknow exactly what the image looks like when playing back that same scene using Oppo/X700

[Geoff D]

Is "ignorance is bliss" really something that a pro calibrator should be espousing?

[sapiendut]

No, but at what point people need to be critical to every single point in AV? In most cases I need to give an advice that so people who don’t want to go to the extreme can live with. The reason being is that if I want to go with the “perfect” route, then I’d tell people to go with Oppo 203 for all DV playback and 9000 for everything else, telling people exactly where they should sit relative to screen size, and that’s just for the video.

[Geoff D]

We shouldn't have to live our A/V-related life at "extremes", no, but this is an issue that shouldn't have to need "extreme" intervention. Dolby and/or Panasonic should be looking at fixing it instead of telling people "that's just how it is" (their words, not yours).

And all the while they do nothing it's yet more fuel for the anti-DV fire, I think it's a superb concept on paper but it's been riddled with implementation problems (raised black bars, low brightness on Sony TVs, now too high a brightness from Panasonic players) that badly undermine the whole 'see it as the creator intended' bumpf that its most myopic supporters cling to. If we can't trust that we're actually seeing 'what the creator intended' then that core USP of DV is of no more use than a fart in the wind. Still, that's HDR in a nutshell really.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

No, but at what point people need to be critical to every single point in AV?

Agree that this and like discussions are by their nature hyper-critical. As Vincent noted in his video, many of the criticisms, as well as plaudits, are not relevant to the overwhelming majority of viewers. If you need to freeze a frame to compare spectral highlights to provide a comparison, well, let's just say it's not the same methodology as inviting 12 random people to a focus group and playing the same film using the exact same equipment/configuration/calibration except for the disc player and then asking questions about which equipment, A or B, provided the best image.

If you want to know what drives the hyper-criticism, for me it's the lack of attention to detail, as outlined in Vincent's review, and my own experience with the Sony and LG players. My jaw dropped when Vincent outlined the issues re: volume control with powered speakers, output limits on apps, etc., on a mid-range/high-end player.

Independent of the specific issues, I do understand that product volume and margins are low, so product dev and QA investment will be limited. Tech is tech and there will always be issues, but that said, with the user interfaces complete rubbish, the settings so arcane, QA non-existent, one does wonder if there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

To the larger issue, UHD, and for that matter, physical media, will not survive if a trouble-free player can't be bought at any price. $1,000 for a player? $500 for a player? $300 for a player?

I don't mind paying. But I am tired of waiting, and years after the intro of UHD, spending for compromised products. If at the end of the day we are citing the 203 and the UB9000 as the pinnacle, well, that's a problem, beginning with the fact one of the two products is discontinued.

The Apple TV is $150, Amazon FireTV is $99, and the Google Chromecast Ultra is $69. These products may not be perfect, but not only do they not have to be at these price points, they still provide a much simpler, easier and superior user experience.

These cats have come to play. Let the mice be warned.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I'll be moving next month from a Sony X-800, which I'll leave for CD/SACD playing only, to a Panasonic DP UB424EGK, I think it's the German reference for the 420. It's cheap on Amazon Germany and it has the HDR Optimizer that will sure make my mid range 49" Samsung set look better while playing UHD BD's with HDR. And it also adds HDR10+ that my Samsung TV supports so that means I'll be able to watch the Alien UHD BD on its full glory.
I also suspect that the Sony X-800 doesn't do Chroma Upsampling quite right while I've read that Panasonic players excell at that.

What Samsung model do you own? I thought you owned a KU or KS model. If so, it doesn't support HDR10+.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

What Samsung model do you own? I thought you owned a KU or KS model. If so, it doesn't support HDR10+.

It's a 49" KU model, I don't have the owner's manual here with me but it's been updated to HLG and HDR10+. I don't know if I can say this here,I made a copy, an UHD BD remux to MKV of a friend's Bohemian Rhapsody US disc.
I first started playing the Bohemian Rhapsody remux on my Sony X-800 that played as plain HDR but I had the idea of play the UHD BD remux directly by the TV player, and it played as HDR10+.
Anyway, HDR10+ is not something I'm very interested on as I think it won't catch on.
It's the great Chroma Upsampling and the HDR Optimizer what I'm interested on about Panasonic players. The Sony X-800 is a nice player for what it is, a high value multiformat player for those of us who want BD/UHD BD and SACD playing but I think its UHD BD with HDR playing quality is just OK and changing to a Panasonic player with its great Chroma Upsampling and HDR Optimizer will make a clearly visible improvement.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

It's a 49" KU model, I don't have the owner's manual here with me but it's been updated to HLG and HDR10+. I don't know if I can say this here,I made a copy, an UHD BD remux to MKV of a friend's Bohemian Rhapsody US disc.
I first started playing the Bohemian Rhapsody remux on my Sony X-800 that played as plain HDR but I had the idea of play the UHD BD remux directly by the TV player, and it played as HDR10+.
Anyway, HDR10+ is not something I'm very interested on as I think it won't catch on.
It's the great Chroma Upsampling and the HDR Optimizer what I'm interested on about Panasonic players. The Sony X-800 is a nice player for what it is, a high value multiformat player for those of us who want BD/UHD BD and SACD playing but I think its UHD BD with HDR playing quality is just OK and changing to a Panasonic player with its great Chroma Upsampling and HDR Optimizer will make a clearly visible improvement.

Why do you think that the movie played in HDR10+ when hooked up directly to the TV? There's certainly no way of knowing if it did, since the UI of the KU/KS series doesn't differentiate between the different HDR flavors (be it HDR10, HLG, etc.)

HDR10+ was promised to the KU/KS sets, but Samsung failed to live up to that promise. Those sets never got the firmware update for HDR10+. This has been well known for over a year.

[cjake]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

It's a 49" KU model, I don't have the owner's manual here with me but it's been updated to HLG and HDR10+. I don't know if I can say this here,I made a copy, an UHD BD remux to MKV of a friend's Bohemian Rhapsody US disc.
I first started playing the Bohemian Rhapsody remux on my Sony X-800 that played as plain HDR but I had the idea of play the UHD BD remux directly by the TV player, and it played as HDR10+.
Anyway, HDR10+ is not something I'm very interested on as I think it won't catch on.
It's the great Chroma Upsampling and the HDR Optimizer what I'm interested on about Panasonic players. The Sony X-800 is a nice player for what it is, a high value multiformat player for those of us who want BD/UHD BD and SACD playing but I think its UHD BD with HDR playing quality is just OK and changing to a Panasonic player with its great Chroma Upsampling and HDR Optimizer will make a clearly visible improvement.

There is an inconsistency in HDR10+ reporting by the Panasonic player between playing an HDR10+ disc and a HDR10+ MKV when your TV does not support HDR10+.

When playing an HDR10+ disc, both input format and output format will be reported as HDR10 if your TV does not support HDR10+.

When playing an HDR10+ MKV, input format is reported as HDR10+ and output format is reported as HDR10.

So check what the Panasonic reports on its Information screen for output format (not input format) to determine if it is actually sending HDR10+ or HDR10.