Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by octagon

Yes, Hollywood is going to make nothing but vertical movies. Even by your standards that was a good one.

At the time it was one of his crazier predictions, but he has drastically upped the ante recently. "All movies will be vertical" is mild compared to "the government is going to prevent people from watching more than 2-3 hours of TV per day". I'm sure Steedeel will come up with even crazier predictions that make that one look mild too. Every new crazy prediction makes his previous ones look sane in comparison.

Originally Posted by Vilya

You're a memorable guy.

Maybe that's his goal: to be so ridiculous that we can't possibly forget him.

[CV19]

Originally Posted by octagon

Oh, and while we're on the subject, 43" isn't exactly a big screen anymore. It's big for a desktop computer monitor but on the small end of bedroom TVs.

It was quite a step up a few years ago after my faithful Sony 32" CRT set finally decided to call it a day.
But you're right, by today's standards it is on the small side now.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

At the time it was one of his crazier predictions, but he has drastically upped the ante recently. "All movies will be vertical" is mild compared to "the government is going to prevent people from watching more than 2-3 hours of TV per day".

Yeah, the Sit on Your Fat Lazy Ass Tax is going to be hard to top.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I don't disagree that access to the content is all we need. But with streaming the studios have absolute control over what content we can access, they can take away that access at any time.

We can no longer access The Simpsons episode "Stark Raving Dad" with streaming. We can no longer access an uncensored version of Dumbo with streaming. We can no longer access Terminator 2 with its original colors and minimal DNR with streaming. We can no longer access hundreds of indie movies and TV shows that have been removed from streaming providers.

With physical media nothing can be taken away. The studios and distributors can never prevent us from being able to access the titles they've previously released.

You're right with the control is different, but if you have something in your Collection they will not take it away. That "Stark Raving Dad" is gone to add to your Collection, but it's still there if you had it. I have "Terminator 2: Judgment Day" 1991 in my Collection. Your fears are almost like Steedeels, fabricated in your minds!

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right with the control is different, but if you have something in your Collection they will not take it away. That "Stark Raving Dad" is gone to add to your Collection, but it's still there if you had it. I have "Terminator 2: Judgment Day" 1991 in my Collection. Your fears are almost like Steedeels, fabricated in your minds!

Have you tried streaming Terminator 2 lately? Does it look like this (new remaster)?


Or this (original version)?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right with the control is different, but if you have something in your Collection they will not take it away. That "Stark Raving Dad" is gone to add to your Collection, but it's still there if you had it. I have "Terminator 2: Judgment Day" 1991 in my Collection. Your fears are almost like Steedeels, fabricated in your minds!

You are the last person who should bring up fabricating things in one's mind. You make sh*t up wholesale.

Steedeel worries too much because he cares so much whereas you think too little with too little.

The digital version of Terminator 2, both HD and 4K , has been "updated" to coincide with the recent 4K disc combo release; a version that has been roundly criticized by scores of people for the heavy handed use of Digital Noise Reduction resulting in the loss of facial detail making people look like wax work figures.

I have watched this botch job first hand as I own both the 4K disc combo pack and the imported 3D edition. Faces often look like porcelain masks. The loss of detail is evident elsewhere, but it is impossible not to notice it in many of the facial close-ups. If you can't see it then you are simply blind, haven't watched it recently, or you are fabricating lies. The thread about this release is overflowing with complaints across every viewing platform from people making those actual observations that you claim to prize so much.

James L. Brooks, executive producer of The Simpsons reported this (paraphrased) to the news media:

"20th Century Fox is now working on removing “Stark Raving Dad” from every platform."

He also said that the process of removing this episode entirely would take some time to accomplish.

https://www.polygon.com/tv/2019/3/8/...ark-raving-dad

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The digital version of Terminator 2, both HD and 4K , has been "updated" to coincide with the recent 4K disc combo release; a version that has been roundly criticized by scores of people for the heavy handed use of Digital Noise Reduction resulting in the loss of facial detail making people look like wax work figures.

I have watched this botch job first hand as I own both the 4K disc combo pack and the imported 3D edition. Faces often look like porcelain masks. The loss of detail is evident elsewhere, but it is impossible not to notice it in many of the facial close-ups. If you can't see it then you are simply blind, haven't watched it recently, or you are fabricating lies. The thread about this release is overflowing with complaints across every viewing platform from people making those actual observations that you claim to prize so much.

You guys and your Conspiracy Theories, nobody is taking anything away, now who's making stuff up. Vudu has three versions of that "Terminator 2," mine is the older one then the remastered one and the Directors Cut. I have almost 700 in my Collection, and nothing has been taken away.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys and your Conspiracy Theories, nobody is taking anything away, now who's making stuff up. Vudu has three versions of that "Terminator 2," mine is the older one then the remastered one and the Directors Cut. I have almost 700 in my Collection, and nothing has been taken away.

You and your lack of reading comprehension. It is truly a marvel to behold each and every time.

Vudu offers one version to purchase, the theatrical cut, and two rental options: one for the theatrical and one for the director's cut. One cut that you can buy and two cuts that you can rent. You have to click on those icons to see what is being offered, not just count them like you did. Can you grasp that?

https://www.vudu.com/content/movies/...rminator%25202

No one said that digital copies of T2 were deleted. T2 was "remastered" and digital purchases were modified to this latest version.

Digital purchases get "upgraded" when newer editions that have been "remastered" come along. When you bought yours doesn't mean anything. Vudu does not maintain the older editions; they offer the latest one, for good or ill, and in this instance for ill. By keeping just the latest edition, Vudu is conserving storage space; they do not want to use any more of their storage capacity than necessary.

That's one of the many things about digital purchases that suck eggs; these "upgrades" to newer editions happen automatically; their customers can not opt out and retain the edition that they had when they initially bought the title.

Complaints about the latest "remastering" of Terminator 2 encompass all formats: 4K disc, blu-ray disc, 3D blu-ray disc, and the digital edition. There are 7,536 posts in the T2 4K thread, which is extremely high for a thread of this type, with the vast majority of them being very negative.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys and your Conspiracy Theories, nobody is taking anything away, now who's making stuff up. Vudu has three versions of that "Terminator 2," mine is the older one then the remastered one and the Directors Cut. I have almost 700 in my Collection, and nothing has been taken away.

Have you tried watching Terminator 2 recently to see what it looks like? Please watch the scene I showed you in my earlier post and post a screen grab of it. Then you can prove once and for all that you really have the old version with the original colors (or not).

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Have you tried watching Terminator 2 recently to see what it looks like? Please watch the scene I showed you in my earlier post and post a screen grab of it. Then you can prove once and for all that you really have the old version with the original colors (or not).

Unless he just copies and pastes your screenshot. Wouldn't put it past him.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

You are the last person who should bring up fabricating things in one's mind. You make sh*t up wholesale.

Steedeel worries too much because he cares so much whereas you think too little with too little.

The digital version of Terminator 2, both HD and 4K , has been "updated" to coincide with the recent 4K disc combo release; a version that has been roundly criticized by scores of people for the heavy handed use of Digital Noise Reduction resulting in the loss of facial detail making people look like wax work figures.

I have watched this botch job first hand as I own both the 4K disc combo pack and the imported 3D edition. Faces often look like porcelain masks. The loss of detail is evident elsewhere, but it is impossible not to notice it in many of the facial close-ups. If you can't see it then you are simply blind, haven't watched it recently, or you are fabricating lies. The thread about this release is overflowing with complaints across every viewing platform from people making those actual observations that you claim to prize so much.

James L. Brooks, executive producer of The Simpsons reported this (paraphrased) to the news media:

"20th Century Fox is now working on removing “Stark Raving Dad” from every platform."

He also said that the process of removing this episode entirely would take some time to accomplish.

https://www.polygon.com/tv/2019/3/8/...ark-raving-dad

I actually thought it looked great in 3D. The quality was crystal clear. I knew it had noise reduction but for once, I didn’t care. It was like watching a brand new film. Maybe if I watched it without 3D, I would feel different. It’s a film I already adore, maybe the 3D along with the clarity swayed my usually stubborn mind (when it comes to artefacts)

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

He already thinks that adaptive streaming can use all of your ISP's bandwidth when it can not.

The poor fellow at one point bragged about adaptive streaming being a good thing. I have tried to show him how it works but I have not been successful. At some point I may add up all the files necessary for adaptive streaming just to show folks how much storage space is needed just for a 1 hour UHD show that has a maximum of 16 Mbps.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I have not found anything that will assuage his fears.

He will instead see this as "proof" that vertically framed video content will kill off horizontally framed content, which is one of his oft stated fears that feed into his dread of the smartphone; in other words movies as we know them are doomed!

Nothing new can co-exist with anything pre-existing. Sumpins gotta die! You knew that already, right?

The thing is though, social media formats like vertical and square will 100% make their way to non social media services, be it mobile focussed new video services, YouTube or whatever. What then? We have a split. Old school widescreen, new age mobile obsessed youngsters vertical and square. Something has to give. Even the likes of Netflix will probably have to edit their formats for mobile/TV.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I actually thought it looked great in 3D. The quality was crystal clear. I knew it had noise reduction but for once, I didn’t care. It was like watching a brand new film. Maybe if I watched it without 3D, I would feel different. It’s a film I already adore, maybe the 3D along with the clarity swayed my usually stubborn mind (when it comes to artefacts)

I enjoyed the 3D edition. The 3D effects were impressive, but I still could not help but notice the porcelain faces. Skin pores and more were just smoothed away, and not even uniformly; one part of a face would look like plastic and another would retain some detail. Despite this, object and background detail were often quite good.

The whole presentation was just wildly inconsistent as if they just let a computer automatically apply the DNR without any careful human supervision. I call it a "botch" job because of this inconsistency and the fact that this is a James Cameron film and this "remaster" was supposedly approved by him personally, yet it looks like clay animation in many places. This film deserved better and James Cameron appears to have just rubber stamped his endorsement of this "remaster."

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The thing is though, social media formats like vertical and square will 100% make their way to non social media services, be it mobile focussed new video services, YouTube or whatever. What then? We have a split. Old school widescreen, new age mobile obsessed youngsters vertical and square. Something has to give. Even the likes of Netflix will probably have to edit their formats for mobile/TV.

I don't care if they do because I do not have to watch them unless I choose to and I do not believe for one instant that they will supplant, yet alone replace, more traditional aspect ratios in future film making. "Square" framing has essentially existed since the dawn of film as older movies, made for TV movies, and TV episodes were presented in the 4:3 aspect ratio for decade upon decade, an aspect ratio that is nearly square. Some films are still being framed this way.

Vertical and square framing are just two aspect ratios among many. Nothing to be concerned about here.

Incidentally, there is news among industry analysts that suggest that Netlfix may have to add advertising to their service in order to sustain growth and revenue. Netflix denies it, but these analysts dismiss their denial as just PR.

A thread, with the article links, has been started already. Here is the OP's initial post:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...78&postcount=1

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I don't care if they do because I do not have to watch them unless I choose to and I do not believe for one instant that they will supplant, yet alone replace, more traditional aspect ratios in future film making. "Square" framing has essentially existed since the dawn of film as older movies, made for TV movies, and TV episodes were presented in the 4:3 aspect ratio for decade upon decade, an aspect ratio that is nearly square. Some films are still being framed this way.

Vertical and square framing are just two aspect ratios among many. Nothing to be concerned about here.

Incidentally, there is news among industry analysts that suggest that Netlfix may have to add advertising to their service in order to sustain growth and revenue. Netflix denies it, but these analysts dismiss their denial as just PR.

A thread, with the article links, has been started already. Here is the OP's initial post:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...78&postcount=1

Ads are almost certainly a sure thing. How many is the question.

I said many years ago, Digital was bad news. We hear about content being censored, ads being planned even for paid subscriptions, Walmart planning ad technology that will have product placement in their tv shows (apparently) and poorer quality picture and sound to boot. Grim, very grim.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Have you tried watching Terminator 2 recently to see what it looks like? Please watch the scene I showed you in my earlier post and post a screen grab of it. Then you can prove once and for all that you really have the old version with the original colors (or not).

Well it took awhile, but I could not get a Screen Shot of that "Terminator 2," but I got the shot with my Windows Phone.

Terminator2-4.jpg

So it does look like the original, are you guys going to give it up now? Probably not right, but maybe you will be a little more convinced that no one wants to take away your Digital Movies. Now we have to see what Wendell is talking about with Adaptive Streaming, I think it has to do with Master Files and processing variable Bitrates, and not Various Stored Files. So let's see if you score one for Digital Streaming!

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The thing is though, social media formats like vertical and square will 100% make their way to non social media services, be it mobile focussed new video services, YouTube or whatever. What then? We have a split. Old school widescreen, new age mobile obsessed youngsters vertical and square. Something has to give. Even the likes of Netflix will probably have to edit their formats for mobile/TV.

No. Just because amateur idiots make vertical videos doesn't mean anything. You do realize that smartphones and pads can be turned to landscape mode, right?

16:9 (1.78:1), 1.85:1 and 2.4:1 are not going away. There's not a single professional video camera that shoots vertically. Let's stop being hysterical.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well it took awhile, but I could not get a Screen Shot of that "Terminator 2," but I got the shot with my Windows Phone.

[Show spoiler]Attachment 220774

So it does look like the original, are you guys going to give it up now? Probably not right, but maybe you will be a little more convinced that no one wants to take away your Digital Movies. Now we have to see what Wendell is talking about with Adaptive Streaming, I think it has to do with Master Files and processing variable Bitrates, and not Various Stored Files. So let's see if you score one for Digital Streaming!

For the third time, no one said that Terminator 2 had been "taken away." Modified does not mean the same thing as removed.

Just to confirm, your picture was taken of the Vudu digital purchase and not from some other source? It does look like the second image posted by Penguin. Perhaps Vudu has not "updated" their version of T2 to the latest so-called remastered version, but I would not be surprised if they yet did so.

Wendell is a good sport and I bet he will try explaining adaptive streaming to you yet again. Hopefully, with greater success.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well it took awhile, but I could not get a Screen Shot of that "Terminator 2," but I got the shot with my Windows Phone.

So it does look like the original, are you guys going to give it up now? Probably not right, but maybe you will be a little more convinced that no one wants to take away your Digital Movies.

I'm willing to admit I was wrong in that particular case. They haven't updated your copy of Terminator 2, though they still may in the future.

But even if you never lose your copy of Terminator 2 the point still stands. They have taken away the ability to purchase the original version. All digital providers have also taken away the ability to purchase "Stark Raving Dad". Whether or not titles get removed from people's digital collections this is still a problem.

My concern is that titles remain available to everyone, not just the people who happen to buy them when they are officially supported.

If someone who has never owned Stark Raving Dad wants to buy it right now they can easily do so on DVD despite it being out-of-print. Used copies of The Simpsons: The Complete Third Season are readily available for under $20 on eBay.

But digital titles don't have a used market. When a digital-only title gets removed from sale it becomes completely unavailable to everyone who didn't already buy a copy.