Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[avs commenter]

The irony here is great

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

The irony here is great

I am glad that you are being entertained. It is one of the big reasons why we come here afterall.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Created a UV account right after the site came online and read their TOS, did all of this mainly to see how it all worked.

For me, nothing is free, someone always pays. CDNs, data centers, peering, etc., is an ongoing cost. I do not see how a disc purchase with a code or EST will cover this continuous cost and is one of the reasons I have advised users to read their TOS.

IMHO, over time the content owners will abandon EST, codes and the majors will/have focus on SVOD and/or AVOD.

Currently with EST the content owners only get to charge you one time with a title. With physical they get to charge me over and over for the same title because of the BBF (bigger, better, format) .

Example, I have purchased 7 versions of T2, the extreme case but for many titles I have done 3 to 5 purchases.

Yeah, I have stated that digital HD will die for several years now. It’s stuck between a rock and a hard place. Younger people don’t want to own content generally and film fanatics love their quality. Eventually, exclusives will mean a few weeks after cinema and the streaming services will justify ever increasing prices with debut films on their service. Discs will be held back and that makes digital irrelevant due to their average quality.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

The irony here is great

Yep, agree. Very ironic that you have A/V as your user name but don’t seem to want the best.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I, too, have bought many of the same movies several times over with each succeeding format. I have also bought them again just because a better edition came out within the same format.

None of my previous versions disappeared, they were passed on family members, donated to our local library or sold. I would bet many of my LaserDisc are still being viewed somewhere .

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

None of my previous versions disappeared, they were passed on family members, donated to our local library or sold. I would bet many of my LaserDisc are still being viewed somewhere .

I gave away to family and friends, or donated, many of my duplicates as well. I still do, periodically.

Some of my old laserdiscs, mostly animation titles, wound up at a college's film school in Washington state. I was surprised that they wanted them, but I am glad that they still serve a purpose.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It is not about what "level" of quality you deem to be acceptable or even "outstanding." That's your choice and I doubt that anyone objects to your being happy with streaming.

The point is that you commented about this video's assessment of streaming quality, not your personal assessment, and you mostly misrepresented what they actually said. You omitted every single criticism that they mentioned. You also conveniently overlooked that they said that streaming quality is "nowhere" near to that which you get from disc or even from Kaleidescape.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yeah, I have stated that digital HD will die for several years now. It’s stuck between a rock and a hard place. Younger people don’t want to own content generally and film fanatics love their quality. Eventually, exclusives will mean a few weeks after cinema and the streaming services will justify ever increasing prices with debut films on their service. Discs will be held back and that makes digital irrelevant due to their average quality.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yep, agree. Very ironic that you have A/V as your user name but don’t seem to want the best.

You guys that prefer Discs keep saying that is the very best, but it really isn't anymore. Like I said before there are many levels of Quality, and the Kaleidescape Rep made a point with this. Vilya you will have to go back to the Shootout right before Streaming, the Rep said Discs were on the way out. As a matter of fact most of the testing was done using Video from a Kaleidescape Server. The Rep said that some of their Movies are better than 4K Discs, because they can go past the 100Gb limit of a 4K Disc. They work with the Master Mezzanine File to make their Codec. The Studios control the Distribution of Digital Movies and TV Shows, and that means the Codec. So when you talk about Digital HD being average or less Quality that can change depending on the Provider and their capabilities. The Codec put on Servers can be easily changed depending on what Quality the Studios want to provide.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys that prefer Discs keep saying that is the very best, but it really isn't anymore. Like I said before there are many levels of Quality, and the Kaleidescape Rep made a point with this. Vilya you will have to go back to the Shootout right before Streaming, the Rep said Discs were on the way out. As a matter of fact most of the testing was done using Video from a Kaleidescape Server. The Rep said that some of their Movies are better than 4K Discs, because they can go past the 100Gb limit of a 4K Disc. They work with the Master Mezzanine File to make their Codec. The Studios control the Distribution of Digital Movies and TV Shows, and that means the Codec. So when you talk about Digital HD being average or less Quality that can change depending on the Provider and their capabilities. The Codec put on Servers can be easily changed depending on what Quality the Studios want to provide.

You really just can't admit to being wrong, can you? You just double down and dig that hole deeper.

You deliberately misrepresented what the video that you cited actually had to say about streaming. More incredulous than that, you assumed that I would not watch that video to see if you were telling the truth. I ALWAYS check any link that you post to see if it really says what you claim it does and so far you have been wrong each and every time. Being wrong: it's your trademark.

During the very video that you posted the speakers clearly state that streaming gives you "NOWHERE" near the quality that you get from a disc or a Kaleidescape download. Streaming comes in a distant third no matter who you think comes in first.

Of course there are different levels of quality; why do you always state the obvious? In what product category or service category are there not different levels of quality? You happen to have chosen a lower level of quality when it comes to watching movies. You are happy with your convenient bargain choice and that's perfectly fine for you. No one cares that you have lower standards; really, we don't.

As for anyone on that video allegedly saying that discs are on "the way out", I do not care if they did nor do I necessarily believe that they did seeing as you misrepresent what people actually say routinely. You constantly post hearsay that collapses under scrutiny. It would just be an opinion, anyway, and it has NOTHING to do with any of what we have been discussing. People like you have been predicting this for over five years and all you have proven is that you are consistently, reliably, and perennially wrong.

If you are trying to bother me with these silly predictions, you will have to try much, much harder than that. I actually buy discs, remember? If there is ever any real difficulty in finding more to purchase, I will know it long before you ever will.

Do you really expect anyone to take the word of a Kaleidescape sales representative seriously when they boast that their product is the best? It is what a sales rep. does for a living: they promote their employer's products. Are you truly that naive and that gullible? This alleged claim by a Kaleidescape sales representative has not been independently affirmed by someone not employed by Kaleidescape. If you have a link to a credible assessment that supports this sales claim, then provide it. Otherwise, the alleged bragging of a sales rep. is summarily dismissed by the rational among us. But seeing as you are so ready to believe anything that a sales rep. has to say, when are you converting to Apple products and services? They claim to be the best, too. Car salesmen must see you coming from miles away...

You do realize that a Kaleidescape system is nothing more than a proprietary conventional hard drive in varying capacities that cost between $4500 to $13000, movies not included, and the movie downloads often cost as much or more than any 4K disc does on release day? If you want to watch a Kaleidescape download over your home network, you need to spend an additional $3500 for a device that makes that possible.

Kaleidescape hardware prices here:

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchp...=960&keys=keys

^ Is that the digital future that you are so excited about? Downloading expensive files to $4500, and up, conventional hard drives? When do you think the public will buy into it en masse? Are you planning on investing in them? You should lead the charge and when you do...

Let us know which one you buy and what you think of the download quality. I seem to remember that you really value opinions based upon first hand observations; you know, like the ones that you have shared about the 4K disc players that you have never owned.

Kaleidescape is not a viable system for the vast, vast majority of consumers and even you should be able to understand that a conventional hard drive is a very poor long term storage system for any type of data file, yet alone data files that can cost $35 each to download.

Of course the studios control their own intellectual properties. More stating of the obvious that is both unnecessary and meaningless- in other news water in its liquid state is wet. They do not own and control the codecs being used. 23 different companies have patent rights to the H.265 codec alone.

" MPEG LA announced their HEVC license which covers the essential patents from 23 companies."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_E...y_Video_Coding

Streaming providers could offer higher bitrates, but they haven't and they do not seem very likely to do so. Why would they? It would cost them more and thus it would cost their customers more. Streaming customers like you are already happy with what they get, so they have no need to increase their costs. They have not changed their codecs, either. Streaming is the same now as it was in 2015; same bitrates and the same codecs.

I wouldn't hold my breath if you are expecting streaming providers to do anything more than the bare minimum needed to keep easily pleased customers like you. Businesses like to control costs, even reduce them; they are in no hurry to increase them.

The same video that you cited confirmed the limitations of streaming: Netflix and Vudu stream 4K content at 15-16 Mbps. They also streamed it over a wireless network because a wireless network can easily handle such anemic 4K streaming bitrates. Professionals conducting this "shootout" would not run a streaming evaluation during an assessment of four top tier 4K TVs over an inadequate network no matter what you may think to the contrary.

They also pointed out multiple examples of noise, banding, and compression artifacts throughout the streaming evaluation segment of that video. Artifacts were observed and mentioned several times. Really odd that everyone else can see them except for you. You are "special" in so many ways.

No matter how much you want to deflect from your recent and incorrect posts, the experts running this assessment described streaming quality as "decent", "good", and "not unwatchable"- none of which are synonymous with "best", "fantastic", or "outstanding." I think that they mentioned that it was convenient, too. They were more critical of streaming quality than I have been; are you annoyed with them now, too? You are the one who cited this video afterall, so reserve some of that anger for yourself. Thank you for unintentionally proving so many of the things that I, and others, have been telling you all along.

[Steedeel]

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/p...gue-streaming/

Talks about sport but I think it’s very relevant to films also.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

You really just can't admit to being wrong, can you? You just double down and dig that hole deeper.

Good post!

The poor fellow stays in a perpetual state of confusion and seems to enjoy being a nail.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/p...gue-streaming/

Talks about sport but I think it’s very relevant to films also.

It kind of goes against what Vilya and Octagon say about younger engagement with film and tv content. The discussion amongst the Premier league folk (our NFL equivalent) is to change the content to suit the audiences (millennials) with short ‘action’ clips replacing 90 minutes live football for that target audience. It’s this sort of behaviour and general lack of interest in sitting for a long spell watching content that spells doom for our beloved film.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

It kind of goes against what Vilya and Octagon say about younger engagement with film and tv content. The discussion amongst the Premier league folk (our NFL equivalent) is to change the content to suit the audiences (millennials) with short ‘action’ clips replacing 90 minutes live football for that target audience. It’s this sort of behaviour and general lack of interest in sitting for a long spell watching content that spells doom for our beloved film.

Quoting yourself now? Does doing so somehow validate one's previous comments? Someone else here does that a lot and it has never helped their cause.

Are you still worried about those same millenials that binge watch their favorite shows for 4+ hours straight? Those same young people that continue to attend movies at the theater? Those same young people that sit through hour long university classes for four to eight hours per day? And then spend hours more reading their text books and studying their notes? And that often still have the strength of will to work a part time job or two to pay for that education? Is that the generation that you are worried about not being able sit through a movie?

You really sell them short when many, if not most, are actually very hard working. The ones that I know play pretty hard, too, and they enjoy a wide range of leisure activities, including cinema.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Quoting yourself now? Does doing so somehow validate one's previous comments? Someone else here does that a lot and it has never helped their cause.

Are you still worried about those same millenials that binge watch their favorite shows for 4+ hours straight? Those same young people that continue to attend movies at the theater? Those same young people that sit through hour long university classes for four to eight hours per day? And then spend hours more reading their text books and studying their notes? And that often still have the strength of will to work a part time job or two to pay for that education? Is that the generation that you are worried not being able sit through a movie?

You really sell them short when many, if not most, are actually very hard working. The ones I know play pretty hard, too, and they enjoy a wide range of leisure activities, including cinema.

Wooooooo, wait a minute. I didn’t say thy don’t work hard. It’s their leisure activities relating to film and tv media that concern me.

You guys STILL don’t get it. Organisations like The English Premier League are looking at viewing stats for football and seeing a drop off of younger viewers. Those same people are engaging with content in shorter clips on social media. Don’t you see the potential parallel with film and tv here? People are sitting in meetings discussing how to make spirt more appealing to young people who don’t like to engage with long form content. What makes you think this won’t translate to film?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Good post!

The poor fellow stays in a perpetual state of confusion and seems to enjoy being a nail.

Thank you. I am trying to be less of a hammer, but it is hard when I keep finding nails.

He cited a video thinking that it supports his beliefs when it actually does not. He continues to completely ignore the facts and the criticism about streaming contained in the very video that he provided. He instead asserts that Kaleidescape is the best of all because one of their salesmen says so. Even if that were proven to be true, I would not care.

I would never want to download expensive files to a short life expectancy proprietary conventional hard drive that requires their special software to view. Their is no real ownership here when viewing the downloaded content requires that I use their hardware and their software both. The price of their system is nothing but ridiculous to top it all off.

He also tries to get me worried about continued disc availability barely two days after reporting that I bought 40 titles this month alone. Neither this deflection or the Kaleidescape distraction have anything to do with the topic being discussed: the quality of streaming.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Wooooooo, wait a minute. I didn’t say thy don’t work hard. It’s their leisure activities relating to film and tv media that concern me.

You guys STILL don’t get it. Organisations like The English Premier League are looking at viewing stats fo4 football and seeing a drop off of younger viewers. Those same people are nagging with content in shorter clips on social media. Don’t you see the potential parallel with film and tv here? People are sitting in meetings discussing how to make spirt more appealing to young people who don’t like to engage with long form content. What makes you think this won’t translate to film?

No, I do not.

Maybe interest in the Premier league is simply declining among that demographic? Maybe some of these hard working millenials just want to view the highlights of a sports match? Highlights are all I care to see as there can be long periods where very little happens and there is also the bloated amount of time viewing a game requires thanks to the plague of commercials that incessantly interrupt the proceedings. Plus, not everyone is a sports fan; shocking, but true.

Busy people value their free time and they don't all want to watch twenty minutes of ads for every hour of actual game time. Movies are a different leisure pursuit than are the watching of sports; a person can easily have a lot of interest in one while having little to none for the other.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

No, I do not.

Maybe interest in the Premier league is simply declining among that demographic? Maybe some of these hard working millenials just want to view the highlights of a sports match? Highlights are all I care to see as there can be long periods where very little happens and there is also the bloated amount of time viewing a game requires thanks to the plague of commercials that incessantly interrupt the proceedings. Plus, not everyone is a sports fan; shocking, but true.

Busy people value their free time and they don't all want to watch twenty minutes of ads for every hour of actual game time. Movies are a different leisure pursuit than are the watching of sports; a person can easily have a lot of interest in one while having little to none for the other.

Well, let’s see.

By the way, how are you?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Well, let’s see.

By the way, how are you?

My reply is behind spoilers so as not to annoy those who prefer sticking closer to the thread topic.

[Show spoiler]Thank you for asking. I have felt a lot better this past week or so and as evidenced by my participation here. However, this improvement is due to symptom management, so I feel like all I am doing is enjoying the reprieve while it lasts.

I am continuing to do the ordinary things that I enjoy as much as I can, like buying and watching movies, and posting here, whether it makes sense to or not because I so desire a feeling of normalcy and that has been scarce of late.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

My reply is behind spoilers so as not to annoy those who prefer sticking closer to the thread topic.

[Show spoiler]Thank you for asking. I have felt a lot better this past week or so and as evidenced by my participation here. However, this improvement is due to symptom management, so I feel like all I am doing is enjoying the reprieve while it lasts.

I am continuing to do the ordinary things that I enjoy as much as I can, like buying and watching movies, and posting here, whether it makes sense to or not because I so desire a feeling of normalcy and that has been scarce of late.

Good man.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

They work with the Master Mezzanine File to make their Codec.

Sorry, a codec is a device or computer program for encoding or decoding a digital data stream or signal (here). Codec ≠ file

Saying content is in a Mezzanine file format is like saying water is water. If it was a Mezzanine (HQ) ProRes 4444 (MOV) at 330 Mbps (here) then it should be very good quality but if it was Mezzanine MP4 at 10 Mbps then not very good at all.

IIRC, he did say they got Dolby Vision masters (.fcpx, DoVi) that are used to generate their DV titles. Not sure if he commented on HDR10 source material and how their HDR10 titles are generated.

[RefractiveIndex]

I've yet to see proof that Kaleidescape is anything more than a borderline scam.