Blu-rays encoded in the incorrect color space - Fix?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I tried that before chip, if I change the TV to Full then it expands the levels to 0-255 which actually washes out the image further! It's gotta be done at the player level to correct it AFAIK.

It wouldn't help with the Fury as it was set too low, but if a BD is too bright, switching from Normal to Low will darken the image to get rid of the milky blacks, but you will lose some detail. That's in my limited experience anyway!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by chip75

It wouldn't help with the Fury as it was set too low, but if a BD is too bright, switching from Normal to Low will darken the image to get rid of the milky blacks, but you will lose some detail. That's in my limited experience anyway!

I know I was wrong about Fury, that's why I edited my post but like I said: if I change the HDMI levels on my Sony TV (which is no doubt different from your Sammy, I think it is?) then all it does is expand the image to 0-255, so for something which it thinks is 16-235 but is incorrectly mastered at 0-255 then setting the TV to Full reapplies the 0-255 again and just blows it out even more!

It'd be so great if all TVs did the same things with their settings.

[drb124]

On my Samsung tv, the only way to get access to the hdmi black level is to change the player setting to RBG output. Then I can put it to low. But low is the default for RBG while Normal is the default for Yc... whatever it is called. In my experimentation, the LOW setting is normal for the RBG output, because with the Normal Setting on the tv, RBG is totally washed out. So I don't think the HDMI black level is a solution, on my tv anyway. I may pull out an old player and do an A/B test to see exactly what the RBG setting does on my player. Probably nothing.

[murphywmm]

You can add "Guilty of Romance" and "Himizu" from Olive Films to the list. Two more Japanese films on Blu that were not encoded in the correct colour space for the NA market.

[Tech-UK]

YCC is always limited on consumer equipment (more specifically, HDMI only supports YCC limited), RGB can be either full or limited, so one needs to change the output on the player to RGB full and set the colour space on the display to match or to auto, and that's if the display can accept and correctly process RGB full.

In this case the player converts YCC from the disc to RGB, but will maintain the full video quantisation range.

[Geoff D]

I don't change anything at the TV end, just the player to RGB Full. If I were to change my TV's setting to Full to match the player it blows everything out again.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I don't change anything at the TV end, just the player to RGB Full. If I were to change my TV's setting to Full to match the player it blows everything out again.

What are the colour space options on your display Geoff?

Seems that the display has an issue forcing the colour space, it's no problem, as you said, it will accept an RGB full signal, but obviously changing the settings does something.

[Geoff D]

I've got Full, Limited and Auto under HDMI settings. Like I said, if I change the TV to Full then it applies the 0-255 levels exactly as it should which makes 16-235 software look very washed out, but the point here is that when you've got a piece of software that's been incorrectly mastered to begin with then it needs some jiggery pokery to put it right, if you just set everything to Full then you'll be back where you started.

The whole reason why a 0-255 title looks corrected when I play it back at Full via the player but *not* the TV is because the TV is forcing the 16-235 levels, thereby "crushing" the black level down by 16 to where it should be. It's about getting the equipment to add the 16-235 conversion somewhere, so changing both player and display to Full 0-255 has zero effect in my case.

[drb124]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I've got Full, Limited and Auto under HDMI settings. Like I said, if I change the TV to Full then it applies the 0-255 levels exactly as it should which makes 16-235 software look very washed out, but the point here is that when you've got a piece of software that's been incorrectly mastered to begin with then it needs some jiggery pokery to put it right, if you just set everything to Full then you'll be back where you started.

The whole reason why a 0-255 title looks corrected when I play it back at Full via the player but *not* the TV is because the TV is forcing the 16-235 levels, thereby "crushing" the black level down by 16 to where it should be. It's about getting the equipment to add the 16-235 conversion somewhere, so changing both player and display to Full 0-255 has zero effect in my case.

What player and TV are you using?

[Geoff D]

Panasonic player, Sony TV.

[BNex99]

Bumping this thread to add Shout Factory's Transformers: The Movie and Road House.

[Tom09]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, changing the player's levels from Limited to Full/Enhanced will correct such a problem (also seen on the UK Blu-rays of Rumble in the Bronx and Drunken Master 2) BUT because the source has been encoded far too brightly the appreciable bit depth is reduced, so stuff like banding may become more obvious, "may" being the operative word. Rumble and DM2 look fine when corrected but the French edition of Kingdom of Heaven has some obvious banding on trickier gradations of light and shade, like flickering torches.

So the cloudy and washed out look especially in dark scenes is not a result of wrong colour space?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Tom09

So the cloudy and washed out look especially in dark scenes is not a result of wrong colour space?

I'm saying that for the affected titles it IS very much a case of the wrong levels being applied during mastering BUT some anomalies in the image could still occur even when 'fixed' at the display end.

[mar3o]

On my Panasonic player, I have 2 RGB settings - RGB standard and RGB enhanced. Am I correct that RGB enhanced is the 0-255 setting that I would select to correct any discs that are authored in the wrong color space? Is RGB enhanced the same as RGB full?


This won't result in black crush, will it?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by mar3o

On my Panasonic player, I have 2 RGB settings - RGB standard and RGB enhanced. Am I correct that RGB enhanced is the 0-255 setting that I would select to correct any discs that are authored in the wrong color space?

It depends on what's wrong with them, if they've been set to high and the blacks are grey or the video is coming out too dark (but the information is still there like The X-Files Season Eight) as the wrong information is sent to the display from the disc. You can run into several different authoring issues.

Originally Posted by mar3o

Is RGB enhanced the same as RGB full?

It is.

Originally Posted by mar3o

This won't result in black crush, will it?

If the image is too dark and changing the HDMI level with the TV settings to high or normal doesn't bring back the detail, then it's crushing the blacks.

Changing the RGB settings can be very much player/display dependent. Sending 0-255 may not do anything if the display expects that signal. But dropping HDMI levels down may darken the image.

[mar3o]

I guess the only way to know is to try. Gatchaman collector's set is on sale and I'm tempted but I believe the set has incorrect black levels. Out of principle it would be nice not to buy it but it's a good price and I have some Amazon credit too, but I hate to buy it if I can't correct it during playback.

[nitin]

Yeah pick a disc with known incorrect levels and switch to the other setting on your player and see if it does anything. RGB enhanced sounds right though.