Hulu's "Veronica Mars" (Season 4)

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Not sure what you are talking about. According to this interview the actor knew what was going to happen from the start:

https://www.thrillist.com/entertainm...nterview-logan
Actually they hired an actor for a full season when they didn't have to, and probably paid him quite well. You are taking this way too personal.

PS: And no, I didn't "know" from the start who the bomber was (although he was obviously one of the suspects). I guess I'm not only not a fan for liking this season, but also not very smart.

I think you may have misinterpreted the interview. JD knew from the beginning of Season Four that RT planned what he planned, although RT was not entirely honest about where he was in the writing process at that point. However, RT didn't sell it to Hulu with that detail in the synopsis. He didn't use that event as a selling point or advertise the fact of what he was planning and he certainly didn't tell Jason in the beginning.

Jason was told that Logan was one of the leads and he was never told anything like this would happen until prior to filming his season four episodes, over a decade later. I tell people when their character will die and, yes, that includes deaths that will happen years later. I do this because it does actually hurt actors when they are fired. Actors are people too. They do tend to be more emotional than most, certainly more emotional than more cerebral types like me. That's part of what makes them so special and so good at what they do, to entertain all of us.

As to hiring him for a full season when they didn't have to, they did have to. Logan was part of the pitch. The Hulu series wasn't pitched as a vehicle for Bell with a list of unnamed participants, to be selected later. They pitched it with Logan included. They couldn't have fired Jason after two or three episodes, even if they'd wanted to. Hulu made a plan to acquire streaming rights for seasons one, two and three as part of this deal. They didn't just slap down cash for a fourth season. Jason was a huge part of that deal.

Now, to the following specific point, I am making an educated leap, but, I believe, this is why I can't get anyone to tell me, straight out, how they feel about the big finale and VM's prospects. They keep saying that they are still waiting on ratings and evaluating. I think they won't commit to an answer because they were hoodwinked. I can say that the person who told me the most had no idea that this was what they were doing at the end of the season, until it was filmed, edited and presented, like a very mean present. He knew, at that point, this was not going to go over well with fans and was concerned. He will not admit that RT pulled a bait and switch, only that he kept his secrets.

As for your being down on yourself, please don't be. Not everyone is familiar with the actor who played the bomber and intelligence has nothing to do with it. If you weren't before, now you are, so that won't work on you a second time. Unfortunately, for those who already knew a lot about them, it was a dead giveaway just to put that person on camera making one specific facial expression, that is only used to convey being secretly evil. That person is very talented but stock facial expressions always give away the plot. It just can't be helped. Hey, at least it wasn't Vincent D'Onofrio. Every single viewer would have known from the cast list, no trailer needed. But, for me, if I were going to go with this person for a "bad guy", I'd just cast Machete himself and get Trejo to play the villain we all know from the get go, keeping a bigger villain hiding in the shadows, not played by the bomber from season four and his secret-not-so-secret gone-in-a-moment evil-guy expression, although I really do like that guy. He's fun and likable when not complaining about politics and people he doesn't like, a genuinely amusing man.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by miribeau

Jason was told that Logan was one of the leads and he was never told anything like this would happen until prior to filming his season four episodes

Actually, according to the interview he know what was going to happen before the scripts had even been written.

over a decade later. I tell people when their character will die and, yes, that includes deaths that will happen years later.

WTF? Are you saying he should have told him in 2004 what would happen to his character in a season in 2019 that nobody even knew would exist at that point?

[Alwayshappy]

Originally Posted by Doctor Jack

I’m not a fan because I loved season 4? So grateful there are random internet people to tell me what I am a real fan of. Thank you internet stranger.

I’m not saying that. Someone else did, I just responded to him, because I think it sounds a bit elitist.

And for the person who claimed the rest of the cast wouldn’t be in a potential S5: the creator has confirmed the rest of the cast (her dad and Wallace in particular) will be back for a S5. Neptune will still be the basis of the show aswell. I read it on Tvline.

Other than that, not going to defend myself for liking it. And yes, it has sunk in; what a season 5 would be about.

[Zak2000]

Originally Posted by Alwayshappy

And for the person who claimed the rest of the cast wouldn’t be in a potential S5: the creator has confirmed the rest of the cast (her dad and Wallace in particular) will be back for a S5. Neptune will still be the basis of the show aswell. I read it on Tvline.

I'll give you some hindsight to that: Rob Thomas paddled back after the immense backlash that the older characters will "show up from time to time". In his original interview during the release he was clear about moving on from the cast. He simply backtracked on that after the fans unleashed their anger on him.

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Actually, according to the interview he know what was going to happen before the scripts had even been written.
WTF? Are you saying he should have told him in 2004 what would happen to his character in a season in 2019 that nobody even knew would exist at that point?

Actually according to the interview he gave, he was told before any scripts had been written. According to my calendar, he was told after a full synopsis and partial scripts had been written by RT. That's what we call sugar-coating, trying to make people feel better. I'm down on RT because I believe he made a mistake but the man is human and decent person. He tried to make it as painless as it could be, even though it was always going to be a very painful experience, getting fired from a show JD really loved.

That's very cute, for "a season in 2019". You may not have noticed, the original show was cancelled before RT finished out his planned story arcs for a minimum five-year run. But, ignoring your issue of the specifically identified year, yes, he should have told him at the beginning that he was planning on killing his character at a point in the future, as a catalyst for Veronica to leave Neptune forever, and tried to be as specific as possible.

He claimed that he had a plan which covered this specific event all the way back when the show was on the air, as a sort of defense against the wall of critique he's hitting right now, but I remember him claiming all the way back then that he had Veronica and Logan's story mapped out and it was always Logan, not Duncan. Granted, had he told him then, it would have been "I'm going to do a terrible thing around season seven", but, still, honesty is always the best policy and actors do better when they know the endpoint, don't get blindsided and don't come to rely on a job that won't be there or, worse, a job that will continue on without them. That girl from Walking Dead was devastated, and I do mean devastated, when they fired her. What's worse, that was the moment a bunch of the cast stopped enjoying their jobs and started complaining about things they'd overlooked for years, like the heat and always being dirty. Firing someone is always hurtful, not just to them.

Again, the only reason a character dies without warning to the actor in one of my projects is that they have been arrested. Women saying "he looked at me funny" doesn't count. My uncle was an actor, which is part of how I ended up finally going back to being a writer, after all the other career-detours I've taken, and he was the one who taught me to always plan ahead and never get a reputation for firing people. No one likes the guy who fires people and no one reliable is in a hurry to work for that person, once they earn that reputation. The unreliable or restless actors, those who are looking for a temporary gig, tend to seek out the guy who goes through characters too quickly and fires actors. That's just the industry. RT was reliable up until right now, this moment in Hollywood history. Now he's an "anyone can die, at anytime, GoT-style" show-runner. That reputation can't be shed and that matters to those of us who enjoyed most of what he's done over the years and wanted to see more.

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by Zak2000

I'll give you some hindsight to that: Rob Thomas paddled back after the immense backlash that the older characters will "show up from time to time". In his original interview during the release he was clear about moving on from the cast. He simply backtracked on that after the fans unleashed their anger on him.

Nope. He hasn't got a deal with Hulu and may not get one, because of all of the crap he's pulled, but he was told, after giving several interviews in which he insisted that he was not going back to Neptune and that part of Veronica's life was over, that Hulu would not be financing that kind of travel-oriented show. They paid for sets, paid to use the found locations, paid and paid and paid, and would not be starting from scratch, with a whole new location. Then, he started saying he might go back to Neptune, might, not will, at least that is the last I heard.

[Alwayshappy]

Originally Posted by miribeau

Nope. He hasn't got a deal with Hulu and may not get one, because of all of the crap he's pulled, but he was told, after giving several interviews in which he insisted that he was not going back to Neptune and that part of Veronica's life was over, that Hulu would not be financing that kind of travel-oriented show. They paid for sets, paid to use the found locations, paid and paid and paid, and would not be starting from scratch, with a whole new location. Then, he started saying he might go back to Neptune, might, not will, at least that is the last I heard.

What is your source? Regarding your ‘hulu made him change his words/told RT they didn’t want to finance a story with VM on the road? All I read are a bunch of assumptions imo

I believe it was always his intention to still have some cast members in her life. To have Neptune there. Yes, he wanted to do more outside Neptune aswell, but people just assumed that meant that he was going to forget everything and everyone in Neptune. Which he later corrected, when he was finally asked about it. That’s what I’ve noticed the most since his interviews started; people misreading (or twisting his words even) his words. Not talking about you fyi. Mainly out of disappointment and rage ofcourse.

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by Alwayshappy

What is your source? Regarding your ‘hulu made him change his words/told RT they didn’t want to finance a story with VM on the road? All I read are a bunch of assumptions imo

I believe it was always his intention to still have some cast members in her life. To have Neptune there. Yes, he wanted to do more outside Neptune aswell, but people just assumed that meant that he was going to forget everything and everyone in Neptune. Which he later corrected, when he was finally asked about it.

The source on the issue of Hulu clarifying that entirely new sets and an endless location shoot, for his travelling Mars storyline, would be too expensive, is one of two people who work at Hulu and didn't give me permission to discuss their personal details. As to why RT changed his story, no one can climb inside his mind and prove one way or the other but, within a day of being told they would not be financing the Bell-only road-trip show he had insisted he was doing, he changed his tune. You can make of that what you wish. I take it as evidence he is open to changes dictated by executives who still care about pleasing the fans, even though RT has lost interest in doing things the old way.

As to your belief about his desire to keep people in her life and stay in Neptune for part of the time, that isn't what he has said publicly and stands in direct opposite to what he said privately. He wanted to move on, entirely, from Neptune and the story-lines of rich California socialites and billionaire boys and the like, for personal and political reasons. As to the guest characters/appearances of those deemed unworthy to be on the show full-time, he said he was interested in having a couple of people show up for single stories, not the couple of dozen regular characters or several starring characters show up several times in a season, often at the same time. He hasn't corrected himself on any point. He has done a full turnaround, ignoring what he said before, after having additional conversations with Hulu in which the word "no" was used liberally, and good for him. That is a step in the right direction.

Here's the thing, if he plays the game right, as we all have to do, at some point, and does ye old monkey dance, everyone's least favourite thing, certainly my least favourite, where we have to tow a line we've been given and make concessions to show we are willing to put viewership and financial gain above our own creative desires, then, if all goes well, RT will have his fifth season. However, in this specific case the monkey dance isn't just changing the gender of one character or adding some content to make it look like two straight men might, you know, at some point, in Season 15, even though they are never going to. In his case, he's been digging a hole by publicly describing, in great detail, a fifth season they are unwilling to finance. The dance, for RT, means a whole lot of take-backs.

To be clear, in RT's case, the horror of compliance involves agreeing to resurrection, having faked the death of a major character, when that was not his intention, agreeing to re-locating the show back to Neptune, a place he has left behind in his mind, agreeing to reuniting Veronica Mars with a whole bunch of people he is ready to not see so much anymore, agreeing to ditching a couple of stories he's already committed to in his mind, and, worse, doing it all while promising Hulu that he will run any major character changes past them first, because he can't be trusted to work on his own anymore.

I've been there and I can tell you that your ego takes a hit. However, RT has created a truly wonderful little world in Neptune and all of its inhabitants. If he can stomach going back, he has so many more stories he can tell. He just has to be willing to let go of the Bell-vanity-project he's been trying to sell and return to the ensemble format, which happens to be where both of them shine brightest.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by miribeau

Actually according to the interview he gave, he was told before any scripts had been written. According to my calendar, he was told after a full synopsis and partial scripts had been written by RT.

Are you in any way, shape or form connected to the show? Unless that's the case, I don't think "your calendar" trumps what the actor or the showrunner says.

He claimed that he had a plan which covered this specific event all the way back when the show was on the air, as a sort of defense against the wall of critique he's hitting right now, but I remember him claiming all the way back then that he had Veronica and Logan's story mapped out and it was always Logan, not Duncan.

Can you provide a source for him claiming that he had planned back in the 2000s what happened to the character now?

Again, the only reason a character dies without warning to the actor in one of my projects is that they have been arrested.

The character did not die "without warning to the actor".

There are very good reasons for what the showrunners did with the character. In the early seasons he was a protagonist/suspect in the central mystery of the show. Once that was resolved, there was no natural lead role for him anymore that would do the character justice. What would you have liked him to be that would have kept him in the story? A sidekick junior detective for Mars Investigations? A good husband who waits at home and cooks dinner when Veronica comes home? An international man of mystery who returns from his top-secret missions and hops into bed with Veronica from time to time? I can't see any reason to keep the character around in a lead role except fan service, which is never a good reason IMO. Better to have him go out with a bang (no pun intended).

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by miribeau

To be clear, in RT's case, the horror of compliance involves agreeing to resurrection, having faked the death of a major character

LOL. No.

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Are you in any way, shape or form connected to the show? Unless that's the case, I don't think "your calendar" trumps what the actor or the showrunner says.
Can you provide a source for him claiming that he had planned back in the 2000s what happened to the character now?
The character did not die "without warning to the actor".

There are very good reasons for what the showrunners did with the character. In the early seasons he was a protagonist/suspect in the central mystery of the show. Once that was resolved, there was no natural lead role for him anymore that would do the character justice. What would you have liked him to be that would have kept him in the story? A sidekick junior detective for Mars Investigations? A good husband who waits at home and cooks dinner when Veronica comes home? An international man of mystery who returns from his top-secret missions and hops into bed with Veronica from time to time? I can't see any reason to keep the character around in a lead role except fan service, which is never a good reason IMO. Better to have him go out with a bang (no pun intended).

What I work on is unrelated. Those with whom I speak on the topic, however, work on many things, including this specific show and the company that opted to back it financially. Hopefully that clarifies as, again, this would not have been allowed to happen if I worked on that particular program. I never kill characters for no gain and I never do it without telling the actor at the beginning, even years in advance.

My calendar, about which you asked, is a book of notes. So, actually, yes, I think that what the showrunner said earlier, when he was not yet motivated to make it seem like it was still up for discussion, when he'd already made the decision, trumps what he said later when motivated to conceal certain things he'd said before. I always trust what people said before they had a reason to lie.

There's a rule in Hollywood. Dead is dead. The basic translation boils down to the old standard, a dead man's story is the story of how he died, any way you cut it, as all roads lead to his death, which has already happened. A living man's story is endless, as each man is a world unto himself. Once you kill a character, you kill every moment, every story, every interaction, forever.

While, on a show like Buffy, characters can come back easily, it isn't so easy on a regular program, such that a dead person doesn't have much to do. RT used Lily in a few odd ways, because he liked her and she was talented, and the show was better for it. He has specifically stated he is not bringing Jason back in the same capacity, which means that entire story is over. Everything you listed as an option would have been better than a big pile of nothing.

Put another way, Veronica's endless list of possibilities for interaction with that character is now limited to looking at a photo on a wall or a cell phone, so, I believe you got it backward. There were nothing but reasons to keep him around.

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

LOL. No.

To clarify, that is what they are discussing asking him to do, specifically resurrect a character he has claimed is dead, if the ratings improve enough to warrant a fifth season. The fan idea, being circulated around the web, sent to them in letters/email over at Hulu and asked about in interviews, again and again, is Logan wasn't in the car and she should search for him, as part of a season-long arc, while handling cases in Neptune. That idea is being discussed. He rejected it publicly but has not yet been asked to agree to it privately because they haven't decided if they want to do a fifth season.

I'm not sure why you'd find it funny, maybe he's not your favourite person, but I described it as a horror because, for a writer, being told what you have to do, if you want to keep your project going, is a nightmare. Those are the worst moments and it really is a horrific experience, having creative control taken away. That being said, RT is a great writer so I have no doubt that he could adapt, if he could make that kind of concession to come back from having made this kind of mistake.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that for a huge part of the audience, this is the first time they are watching Veronica Mars and Season Four will be streamed immediately following Season Three. The response from first time viewers who have made it through binge watching the whole series, thus far, has been very negative as to the character death, as he was the male lead in the show and well liked.

[Batman1980]

I never liked Logan and once he slept with Madison Sinclair and beat the tobacco juice out of Piz, I was extra done with him.

[Hoke Moseley]

Jason Dohring isn't a very good actor either imo.

He was solid during the original run, but season 4 I thought a lot of his line deliveries were off. Not very natural.

[Alwayshappy]

Originally Posted by Hoke Moseley

Jason Dohring isn't a very good actor either imo.

He was solid during the original run, but season 4 I thought a lot of his line deliveries were off. Not very natural.

Agreed. He seemed a bit stale. Also missed the chemistry, but I'm sure in the minority. IF Veronica has to be in a romance...I've always loved her with Leo, in S4 aswell.

[Naiera]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen him in anything else than Veronica Mars. There’s probably a reason for that.

He looked like such a goober in the original three seasons. Then he spent the entirety of season 3 crying in his ridiculous hotel suite.

He looked and acted like much more of a normal human being in the movie and season four. I didn’t mind that Logan hanging around

[Zak2000]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

There are very good reasons for what the showrunners did with the character. In the early seasons he was a protagonist/suspect in the central mystery of the show. Once that was resolved, there was no natural lead role for him anymore that would do the character justice. What would you have liked him to be that would have kept him in the story? A sidekick junior detective for Mars Investigations? A good husband who waits at home and cooks dinner when Veronica comes home? An international man of mystery who returns from his top-secret missions and hops into bed with Veronica from time to time? I can't see any reason to keep the character around in a lead role except fan service, which is never a good reason IMO. Better to have him go out with a bang (no pun intended).

There are many different ways you can go with such a character. The problem is that Rob Thomas simply hasn't written him good enough. Pair him with Weevil or Dick for different cases/situations. It isn't that hard. I'm a writer myself.

[Veronica Mars]

Originally Posted by Zak2000

There are many different ways you can go with such a character. The problem is that Rob Thomas simply hasn't written him good enough. Pair him with Weevil or Dick for different cases/situations. It isn't that hard. I'm a writer myself.

You don’t say?

[Batman1980]

I hate Dick so I'm glad they pretty much left him out of season 4.

[Alwayshappy]

Originally Posted by Batman1980

I hate Dick so I'm glad they pretty much left him out of season 4.

Never saw his appeal either. He was okay for season 2, but to keep him there for the movie and season 4? They paired him quite a lot with Logan aswell, didn't make me like Logan more either.