Twin Peaks: The Television Collection / Twin Peaks: From Z to A (Limited Edition)

[LateReg]

Originally Posted by trevanian

The only thing I don't like about s3 is how it runs roughshod over the last half of s2. Briggs is one of my favorite characters, but they've turned him into some kind of Obi-Wan, and going with no mention of Earle and making Annie less than a footnote would be dealbreakers for me if not for the consummate artistry demonstrated everywhere else.

s3 seems to make it that Cooper let himself be imprisoned in the lodge in order to pull off this long con, which lets him off the hook for showing imperfect courage when confronting the dweller on the threshold as well as a lot of character flaws in the events leading up to the end of s2.

What you say in your second paragraph...well, I wouldn't take all that at face value. Cooper's imperfect courage is still what left him lingering in the lodge, and it is his other flaws - per Mark Frost, his hubris - that are also being explored in the Return. It's all about the deconstruction of Cooper, and that includes everything hinted at in the original series. I also wouldn't trust a seemingly straightforward monologue delivered by the notoriously tightlipped Lynch of all people that suddenly retcons the facts and gives the game away just as the two-part finale is about to begin. That sudden reveal, in part, certainly seems like part of the series' mockery of conventional storytelling, in this case the idea of last minute, game-changing reveals. There's simply a lot going on there.

[Kyle15]

Some thoughts:

[Show spoiler]Cooper had a heart of gold and that ultimately was his greatest flaw. He fell in love with the idea of solving a murder, and solving it so thoroughly by bringing the murdered "back to life" by pulling her out of her time, through many times, in an attempt to do so. Laura ultimately "turned off Judy's lights" through Cooper's obessesion, but he couldn't bring everything back to normal.

That said,

[Show spoiler]somewhere out there Cooper is Laura's guardian angel and even though she died she is at peace and lives. But at the same time, she never has peace and is endlessly screaming into the void, snuffing out evil, from Cooper's blind good intention to save her.

[AFFanAttic]

I've a quick simple question about the original series and extended European movie version of the pilot. Does that version differ significantly from the cannon of how the story ultimately played out? I'm not asking for too much story detail, since I want to watch it soon either way, but please feel free to put answer in spoilers.

I've just gone through Season 3 again and I continue to love it. I'm going to watch Fire Walk with Me again soon as well. I just really don't feel like going through the original series again at this time. I last watched it in early 2017 in the lead up to season 3.

Just wondering if I should expect a recap and succinct version of the story, or more of an alternative version curiosity? thnx

[BluProofie]

Originally Posted by AFFanAttic

I've a quick simple question about the original series and extended European movie version of the pilot. Does that version differ significantly from the cannon of how the story ultimately played out? I'm not asking for too much story detail, since I want to watch it soon either way, but please feel free to put answer in spoilers.

I've just gone through Season 3 again and I continue to love it. I'm going to watch Fire Walk with Me again soon as well. I just really don't feel like going through the original series again at this time. I last watched it in early 2017 in the lead up to season 3.

Just wondering if I should expect a recap and succinct version of the story, or more of an alternative version curiosity? thnx

It’s not canon at all.

[AFFanAttic]

Originally Posted by BluProofie

It’s not canon at all.

Yaay. Kind of makes me more intrigued. Thanks.

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by AFFanAttic

Yaay. Kind of makes me more intrigued. Thanks.

It's not canon but it's a fun watch after the series. The killer is essentially "revealed" in it but taken alone is sort of a red herring to how things really play out.

[SleazyForWeasley]

Originally Posted by FragnitoM

The haters are just a vocal minority who like attention on these boards

Not entirely. I don't care for The Return at all, and I've expressed that. I won't rehash what I don't like about it. The "haters" have just as much of a right to their opinions as the Lynch yes-men. You loved it? Cool. I didn't. And that should be fine with you. If all of us shared the exact same opinions about every single thing life would be pretty dull. To dismiss someone's subjective opinion by calling us "haters" says more about you than anything else.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by SleazyForWeasley

Not entirely. I don't care for The Return at all, and I've expressed that. I won't rehash what I don't like about it. The "haters" have just as much of a right to their opinions as the Lynch yes-men. You loved it? Cool. I didn't. And that should be fine with you. If all of us shared the exact same opinions about every single thing life would be pretty dull. To dismiss someone's subjective opinion by calling us "haters" says more about you than anything else.

Here's the problem with your "opinion." You hated it so you want your opinion to be valid, but anyone who liked it is (according to you) a Lynch yes-man. Since you're implying that people who liked it only like it because they like Lynch and not for the content of the show itself, you're smugly implying that your opinion is superior, instead of just being one of many valid opinions. That's why people don't take what you said seriously, because it comes with passive aggressive attitude.

That comment alone definitely makes you "hater," because you aren't just voicing an opinion, you're rudely putting others down for theirs. Sorry, dude. Maybe don't try and act superior (and think your opinion is superior) if you truly want to be on equal ground with others.

[Mister_Kidd]

I'm a proud Lynch yes-man. He's never given me a reason not to be.

[SleazyForWeasley]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Here's the problem with your "opinion." You hated it so you want your opinion to be valid, but anyone who liked it is (according to you) a Lynch yes-man. Since you're implying that people who liked it only like it because they like Lynch and not for the content of the show itself, you're smugly implying that your opinion is superior, instead of just being one of many valid opinions. That's why people don't take what you said seriously, because it comes with passive aggressive attitude.

That comment alone definitely makes you "hater," because you aren't just voicing an opinion, you're rudely putting others down for theirs. Sorry, dude. Maybe don't try and act superior (and think your opinion is superior) if you truly want to be on equal ground with others.

I should have put quotation marks around "yes-men." Otherwise I stand by my statement.

[stvn1974]

I love Twin Peaks The Return with all of my heart but it was a bomb for Showtime. Even the people who initially signed up for Showtime to get Twin Peaks dropped it in large numbers as each episode aired. Like I said I love it but I get why fans of the original series didn't. Even Fire Walk With Me took decades to be reevaluated because it was despised by many fans of the original series too.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by LateReg

Cooper's imperfect courage is still what left him lingering in the lodge, and it is his other flaws - per Mark Frost, his hubris - that are also being explored in the Return.

Didn't he offer up his soul in attempting to rescue Annie? That seems a bit courageous...

[stvn1974]

I enjoy reading others ideas and theories on what things mean and how/why they happen in the world of Twin Peaks. I admit that I still don't have a friggin' clue about it. Each time I think I figure something out I remember something else that completely contradicts it. Making my brain ache is probably the biggest appeal to me for the series and Lynch's work in general.

[popeflick]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I love Twin Peaks The Return with all of my heart but it was a bomb for Showtime. Even the people who initially signed up for Showtime to get Twin Peaks dropped it in large numbers as each episode aired. Like I said I love it but I get why fans of the original series didn't. Even Fire Walk With Me took decades to be reevaluated because it was despised by many fans of the original series too.

I thought FWWM was great out of the gate, and recall the disappointment. But you are right, people came around.

The Return is a hard drink, but I love it. Part of it is because I DID get frustrated at how it was proceeding then some things began falling into place and I adore it. Part of the intent of the journey IS for the audience to get frustrated as he was clearly playing with our anticipation and predictions. It isn't seen as meta just yet but will be eventually be recognized as one of the best executions ever.

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by SleazyForWeasley

Not entirely. I don't care for The Return at all, and I've expressed that. I won't rehash what I don't like about it. The "haters" have just as much of a right to their opinions as the Lynch yes-men.

You're misconstruing "hater" with anyone who says they dislike The Return. It's pretty clear what "hater" means in this context when it isn't being thrown around at everyone willy nilly. There's a difference between not liking it, and saying so, and even wanting to debate it, and coming in with a volatile attitude and lashing out at anyone positive. It's the same thing as anyone saying they don't like it, and getting lashed out for it.

I was apart of discussion on a certain Twin Peaks forum that shall not be named and the amount of vitriol spewed out of some people because they were so mad at The Return and any positivity, made a thread where they attempted to unironically FORBADE anyone from being positive or debate the show, and in the same breath claimed they had privilege to come into any thread and be as negative as they wanted, and as mean as they wanted, because in their eyes being angry was some sort of privilege as a "minority fan" and that subverted how horrible they were. And yes, I've seen that attitude around here before.

BTW, no one is saying anyone is not allowed to not like it. No one said that at all.

You loved it? Cool. I didn't. And that should be fine with you. If all of us shared the exact same opinions about every single thing life would be pretty dull.

Exactly. And it should be fine if someone liked it and you didn't. It's very very obviously apparent there are people who literally get angry and fight over that, and yes it is the same thing whether or not you agree with it or not.

To dismiss someone's subjective opinion by calling us "haters" says more about you than anything else.

See above, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're reframing the use of hater as a put down on everyone who dislikes it and that's not what's happening. You can deny toxic fans of either stripe all you like but they're not going anywhere.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by SleazyForWeasley

I should have put quotation marks around "yes-men." Otherwise I stand by my statement.

But you didn't, so I stand by mine.

And since that was the least of your problems, quotation marks won't change the fact that you are indeed acting like a typical "hater."

[LateReg]

Originally Posted by Arawn

Didn't he offer up his soul in attempting to rescue Annie? That seems a bit courageous...

It does, yes! I think his character is a lot more complicated than most viewers would have thought at the time of the show's original airing. But the central idea that most prescribe to is that he entered the lodge with imperfect courage. It's not that he wasn't courageous, but he wasn't ready to meet his shadow self. Which is in large part what The Return is all about.

Also, when I watched the original series after viewing The Return I found that I saw Cooper's character much differently. Flaws and nuances jumped out that I had never noticed before. Off the top of my head, his cockiness and over-confidence suddenly seemed more prevalent.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by LateReg

But the central idea that most prescribe to is that he entered the lodge with imperfect courage. It's not that he wasn't courageous, but he wasn't ready to meet his shadow self.

Well, Hawk says that if you confront the Lodge with imperfect courage it will utterly annihilate your soul. Is that what we think happened to Cooper? Frankly, it sounds more like what happened to Earle. Cooper's soul doesn't seem utterly annihilated, it's just that he's trapped in the Lodge.

[GeoffOliver]

I’m watching through this show for the first time via the UK set. Is it okay for me to watch the bonus features as I go along, or are they filled with spoilers, and I should wait until I’m done with the show at least once?

Also, I’ve heard older DVDs came with commentaries for some of the episodes. Can they be found anywhere online, and do they contain spoilers?

[BluProofie]

Originally Posted by GeoffOliver

I’m watching through this show for the first time via the UK set. Is it okay for me to watch the bonus features as I go along, or are they filled with spoilers, and I should wait until I’m done with the show at least once?

Also, I’ve heard older DVDs came with commentaries for some of the episodes. Can they be found anywhere online, and do they contain spoilers?

Depends on which features. Watch them all at the end to be safe.