Terminator: Dark Fate SPOILER Discussion Thread

[kylor]

Originally Posted by CyberpunkCentral

Carl's death was a straight up rip off of T3.

And T2 in terms of sacrifice.

[CyberpunkCentral]

Originally Posted by kylor

And T2 in terms of sacrifice.

Yeah but more T3. Much like Grace, the T-850 (?) in T3 also has some kinda object inside it in order to defeat the big bad Terminator. My God, this movie is such a rehash.

[kylor]

Originally Posted by CyberpunkCentral

Yeah but more T3. Much like Grace, the T-850 (?) in T3 also has some kinda object inside it in order to defeat the big bad Terminator. My God, this movie is such a rehash.

I'd say it was a combination of both T3 and T2, and even other movies from the franchise. We've definitely seen these "story beats" before in the franchise, it's nothing new in terms of "wow, I've never seen that before!". Even the villain is sort of what we've seen before. The nano type technology of the John Connor terminator in Genisys, combined with a regular terminator that acts like the T-1000. Meh. Been there, done that. What's new? Y'know?

[Chaotic]

It would be nice if Arnie lived in one of these movies for once.

[StarWarsIsAwesome123]

Originally Posted by Chaotic

It would be nice if Arnie lived in one of these movies for once.

Genisys.

[Chaotic]

I guess i need to rewatch that. I thought he killed himself with John.

[kylor]

Was just watching this:

Terminator Dark Fate review - Yes, it really is that bad - YouTube

Whilst he leaves out quite a few criticisms I have with Dark Fate, he raises an interesting point:

Carl reveals that he was sending Sarah the locations of where terminators are being sent back in time in order for her to destroy them, to give her some sort of purpose in life after he killed John.

It never explains how or why Carl knows this information of exactly where AND when Legion will send back a terminator, especially because he came from a completely different timeline and would literally have zero knowledge of the future of this new timeline with Legion.

Again, shit writing.

[Thieves Dont]

Originally Posted by kylor

Was just watching this:

Terminator Dark Fate review - Yes, it really is that bad - YouTube

Whilst he leaves out quite a few criticisms I have with Dark Fate, he raises an interesting point:

Carl reveals that he was sending Sarah the locations of where terminators are being sent back in time in order for her to destroy them, to give her some sort of purpose in life after he killed John.

It never explains how or why Carl knows this information of exactly where AND when Legion will send back a terminator, especially because he came from a completely different timeline and would literally have zero knowledge of the future of this new timeline with Legion.

Again, shit writing.

I was typing it out but my memory isn’t the best, this reddit poster explains it

Carl tells us that any chrono distortion (ie time travel) creates a shockwave that can be detected before the event in much the same way as the ice or static electricity on the objects near an imminent arrival site. There's some kind of signature measurable he's able to look for that means a traveller is about to show up somewhere (any traveller, not necessarily other terminators).

He isn't "sensing" them, he's looking for the conditions which mean one is on the way. Could be some kind of magnetic field or energy reading or whatever. He doesn't elaborate on what it is, but what he would then have to do is figure out where it's concentrated most for "where" and how much it's built up for "when". It is not an innate sense of other Terminators, and it isn't something he does without intending to.

Sarah mentions getting two texts before this movie- one is Grace. The other is the Rev 9.

It doesn't always seem to be exact science - Sarah missed Grace's arrival entirely and only finds Rev hours after he's appeared.

[kylor]

Originally Posted by Thieves Dont

I was typing it out but my memory isn’t the best, this reddit poster explains it

Fair point, even if I do feel like it's a real stretch of writing and could be better explained, such as him tapping into satellites to help him know the exact locations etc from a house/business in Texas.

[StarWarsIsAwesome123]

Originally Posted by Chaotic

I guess i need to rewatch that. I thought he killed himself with John.

He appeared to be dead after that, but returned as a T-1000. That idea of Arnie as a T-1000 actually had some potential.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by kylor

Was just watching this:

Terminator Dark Fate review - Yes, it really is that bad - YouTube

Whilst he leaves out quite a few criticisms I have with Dark Fate, he raises an interesting point:

Carl reveals that he was sending Sarah the locations of where terminators are being sent back in time in order for her to destroy them, to give her some sort of purpose in life after he killed John.

It never explains how or why Carl knows this information of exactly where AND when Legion will send back a terminator, especially because he came from a completely different timeline and would literally have zero knowledge of the future of this new timeline with Legion.

Again, shit writing.

Agreed. Sloppy writing to try and justify Dark Fate pulling the BS to get rid of John Connor and Skynet as the franchise lore and mythos.

I actually just watched The Terminator again and it's rock solid on showing us the future war via Rees and expositing that to Sarah Connor seamlessly in that movie. Nothings wasted at all. It all ties in really well unlike Dark Fate.

Also noticed when the cops close in on them and arrest that Kyle was actually about to fight with them but only stopped as Sarah told him not to as they'd kill him. Also seems like most of the scenes played out in a way that he didn't need to use violence like Grace to achieve her objective. Which as i've mentioned previously i don't mind in the context of what we see.

Dark Fate has to up the ante for action but again, comes down to how T1 & T2 both justify their action scenes via smart narrative rather than BS set up and mcguffins.

Regarding Carl, he says he can detect the "Time Tremors" (my personal coined phrase) by certain factors as mentioned above but again it's completely ridiculous that unlike both T1 & T2 which are smartly crafted to try explain themselves by saying why the events unfold, it seems Dark Fate is intent to say things willy nilly. Like killing John sends Sarah into a spiral (understandable), then the BS that Carl developed sentience to do what he does and his "conscience" leads him to send messages to Sarah to those "Time Tremors" and she basically took whatever she had and killed Terminators. Now that begs the question that if Legion is sending them, surely the design is different a la Rev 9 and Sarah should have known something was up and looked for more answers.

Also, after watching The Terminator, i realised somewhat of a glaring hole nobody seems to discuss. When the T800 was crushed and Rees put a pipe bomb in the torso, there was more than enough of the machine around. So it's not implausible they could have used that angle as a way to also continue Skynet if they wanted to and explain why Sarah doing what she did in T2 changed things somewhat but ultimately not enough to stop Skynet rising and John Connor needing to fight.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Cliff

Agreed... it's like Star Wars in that the more stories they've told and the more they've expanded the mythology, the more the internal logic and continuity crumbles and all we're left with is the "creators" doing decades later clean up interviews to justify poor narrative choices made after the fact.

Star Wars is a funny little one for me in that i came in the generation where the prequels is what i got growing up and watched the sequels later. From my PoV, i thought later down the line that whilst there was sometimes stuff in the prequels not liked really such as the concept of midichlorians, Jar Jar etc. overall they remained faithful to Star Wars. In fact, most cite phantom menace problems as well as Haydens portrayal as Anakin their major gripes imo.

The Force Awakens howeved i will argue basically refreshed the entire franchise for a new generation in a largely successful manner. It's the sequel that screwed it up in many ways for me and has been the most divisive entry. How does all this tie into Terminator?

This damn franchise hasn't been able to nail a "Force Awakens" no matter how many sequels they seem to have tried and Dark Fate imo continues that.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by kylor

Was just watching this:

Terminator Dark Fate review - Yes, it really is that bad - YouTube

Whilst he leaves out quite a few criticisms I have with Dark Fate, he raises an interesting point:

Carl reveals that he was sending Sarah the locations of where terminators are being sent back in time in order for her to destroy them, to give her some sort of purpose in life after he killed John.

It never explains how or why Carl knows this information of exactly where AND when Legion will send back a terminator, especially because he came from a completely different timeline and would literally have zero knowledge of the future of this new timeline with Legion.

Again, shit writing.

As said, in the film he mentions a temporal shockwave that pre-empts any time incursion which, him being all future robot-like, he's able to detect. So it doesn't matter when or where the time traveller is from, they will still create this chronal displacement which he can sense. (Reminds me a little of the comics and how the Terminators all had tracking sensors that could triangulate other Terminators, like a mini-GPS. Not the same thing of course, but there are plenty of ways to tech the tech.)

Again, people not paying attention. Is it a bit too close to them replacing sense with technobabble? Sure. But every new Terminator movie gradually reveals abilities or technical properties which the other movies neglected to mention, all in the name of servicing that particular story, so in the storytelling realm of DF itself it works just fine for me. Even the question of where they got Carl's co-ordinates to tattoo onto Grace's washboard abs is answered because Dani has now been there in the past.

[NARMAK]

I suppose that "Time Tremors" detection method Carl uses is way more credible as a concept than explaining how "Pops" in Genisys managed to basically turn himself into a T1000. That said, it also does bring into question why Carl says "Dead future" as if its certain Skynet no longer exists when Terminators are still coming through time and he's become sentient enough to have a job, start a family of sorts and watching sports while also having a pet dog who we've always prior been shown as a method of detecting Terminators. Even IN Dark Fate when the Rev 9 goes to the border patrol holding cells and the dogs react. (Pretty sure i didn't imagine that scene but happy to admit i'm wrong if so)

The point does come back to Dark Fate being more sloppy in justifying itself. Like in The Terminator Kyle Rees is being questioned by Silberman and basically asked about the time travel device and why X, Y, Z couldn't be done and stating he didn't design the damn thing, how should he know as a smarter way for a writer to have the concept exist into the story without too much technobabble yet establish a "rule" around it.

Dark Fate unfortunately has the closest hallmarks in terms of flow and action scenes to T1 & T2 yet fails simply on narrative for me and many others. Better as a "What if?" to me. It's not a horrible movie, it's just held back from being a great Terminator sequel.

[kylor]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Agreed. Sloppy writing to try and justify Dark Fate pulling the BS to get rid of John Connor and Skynet as the franchise lore and mythos.

Yep.

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Regarding Carl, he says he can detect the "Time Tremors" (my personal coined phrase) by certain factors as mentioned above but again it's completely ridiculous that unlike both T1 & T2 which are smartly crafted to try explain themselves by saying why the events unfold, it seems Dark Fate is intent to say things willy nilly.

I'm actually going to address this further down this post. Stay tuned.

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Like killing John sends Sarah into a spiral (understandable), then the BS that Carl developed sentience to do what he does and his "conscience" leads him to send messages to Sarah to those "Time Tremors" and she basically took whatever she had and killed Terminators. Now that begs the question that if Legion is sending them, surely the design is different a la Rev 9 and Sarah should have known something was up and looked for more answers.

Again, I'm going to address this time tremor thing, and the time needed for Sarah to get to the location. Coming up next!

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Also, after watching The Terminator, i realised somewhat of a glaring hole nobody seems to discuss. When the T800 was crushed and Rees put a pipe bomb in the torso, there was more than enough of the machine around. So it's not implausible they could have used that angle as a way to also continue Skynet if they wanted to and explain why Sarah doing what she did in T2 changed things somewhat but ultimately not enough to stop Skynet rising and John Connor needing to fight.

There was also the T-800's arm still in the gears of the mill in T2. However, I had received information that John Connor actually goes back and gets it to throw in the lava.

Also you raise a good point about T1. Why would they consider Sarah to be crazy in T2 if they had the physical evidence of the flattened terminator body? Did they assume she made it up for attention? Who knows.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

As said, in the film he mentions a temporal shockwave that pre-empts any time incursion which, him being all future robot-like, he's able to detect. So it doesn't matter when or where the time traveller is from, they will still create this chronal displacement which he can sense. (Reminds me a little of the comics and how the Terminators all had tracking sensors that could triangulate other Terminators, like a mini-GPS. Not the same thing of course, but there are plenty of ways to tech the tech.)

Again, people not paying attention. Is it a bit too close to them replacing sense with technobabble? Sure. But every new Terminator movie gradually reveals abilities or technical properties which the other movies neglected to mention, all in the name of servicing that particular story, so in the storytelling realm of DF itself it works just fine for me. Even the question of where they got Carl's co-ordinates to tattoo onto Grace's washboard abs is answered because Dani has now been there in the past.

Okay, time tremors. Here we go.

That's all well and good until new info surfaced from an interview. I'll point to that post here: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=5387

I can understand there being a shockwave at the time where the area that the time displacement will occur starts to freeze and the sphere is about to materialize. Sure, that's logical for the time displacement to make this shockwave as it's happening, but that would still mean that it would take time for Carl to send the location to Sarah, and for Sarah to drive over to the location, basically meaning she would arrive late after the displacement has occurred.

However, that doesn't appear to be the case, due to this new info where she shows up on time (even early!). In order for it to make sense logically, there would be two options.

A) The "shockwave" would have had to happen at LEAST 1 hour before the sphere materializes or any form of freezing happens. This would give Carl time to send over a text to Sarah, and also gives Sarah time to put on her gear, get in her car and drive for at least 30 minutes to the location.

B) It had to simply be coincidence that Sarah Connor just happened to stumble upon Grace's time sphere.

Even though, you'd think she'd have some gear in her car and would attempt to stop Grace and also stop those innocent cops from being thrown around by Grace like a real terminator would do to humans. Why would she not assume that Grace was a terminator, if Carl has been sending Sarah locations of terminators coming back for years? In all that time, Sarah never once stopped and thought "Oh hey, maybe one of these guys is actually human?". It seems to be always assumed that every time there's a time displacement, a terminator arrives, not an enhanced human, so there'd simply be no reason for Sarah not to try and take out Grace believing Grace was a terminator. I guess I just have to switch off my brain completely in order to enjoy this. And I simply can't do that.

I don't know the technicalities of the shockwave but IMO it's just poorly established. Very poorly.

[NARMAK]

The information about Sarah being the one to hit Grace is stupid and yes does2make sense she doesn't follow up to try kill Grace like every other Terminator she apparently killed BUT regarding the "Time Tremors" for me, there's a logical explanation you could in a convoluted way argue occurs.

When a time travel in the future is triggered, that temporal shockwave doesn't necessarily occur in X amount of time in the past and then the time traveller shows up. We don't actually know how long Carl has sat on that data. For all we know, he could have been sitting on that information for years before it happened and since he's tracking Sarah somehow to give her the For John messages, he can just send it before that traveller comes in enough time for Sarah to show up.

Personally i don't have a problem with the Carl and Time Tremors plot point as a concept. It's more the narrative execution of that concept that irked me because Carl shouldn't even imo exist and have killed John other than DF using that BS to justify Dani Ramos fighting Legion by calling Skynet a "dead future".

[UniSol GR77]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

I suppose that "Time Tremors" detection method Carl uses is way more credible as a concept than explaining how "Pops" in Genisys managed to basically turn himself into a T1000. That said, it also does bring into question why Carl says "Dead future" as if its certain Skynet no longer exists when Terminators are still coming through time.

I guess he met one of these Terminators along the way, and realized that they come from a different future. Different cybernetics.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by UniSol GR77

I guess he met one of these Terminators along the way, and realized that they come from a different future. Different cybernetics.

He just happened to "meet" one and didn't enquire about the mission it was sent on? Or does that mean we can assume he/she is a "Carl" waiting to pull a Dark Fate set up when they decide the franchise needs another "reset"

[kylor]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

The information about Sarah being the one to hit Grace is stupid and yes does2make sense she doesn't follow up to try kill Grace like every other Terminator she apparently killed BUT regarding the "Time Tremors" for me, there's a logical explanation you could in a convoluted way argue occurs.

When a time travel in the future is triggered, that temporal shockwave doesn't necessarily occur in X amount of time in the past and then the time traveller shows up. We don't actually know how long Carl has sat on that data. For all we know, he could have been sitting on that information for years before it happened and since he's tracking Sarah somehow to give her the For John messages, he can just send it before that traveller comes in enough time for Sarah to show up.

Personally i don't have a problem with the Carl and Time Tremors plot point as a concept. It's more the narrative execution of that concept that irked me because Carl shouldn't even imo exist and have killed John other than DF using that BS to justify Dani Ramos fighting Legion by calling Skynet a "dead future".

Yeah, the shockwave thing could make sense if the shockwaves happen a decent amount of time before sphere displacement. I could buy that if given some decent explanation, such as satellites being able to detect these shockwaves early, and Carl monitors these satellites to obtain his information. As it currently stands in the movies current narrative, I don't buy it with such a lack of good explanation.

Originally Posted by UniSol GR77

I guess he met one of these Terminators along the way, and realized that they come from a different future. Different cybernetics.

Originally Posted by NARMAK

He just happened to "meet" one and didn't enquire about the mission it was sent on? Or does that mean we can assume he/she is a "Carl" waiting to pull a Dark Fate set up when they decide the franchise needs another "reset"

Grays. Sports. Almanac. Information from the future, today!

Just joking!

I'm sure Carl invited one into his home, made him a nice cup of tea, offered to sell him some curtains, let the terminator pet Carl's dog, and then blasted his face after a nice storytelling. Goodnight, sweet terminator!

[The Fallen Deity]

Does anyone else think that Gabriel Luna is absolutely fantastic in this?

I actually found him legitimately terrifying. By far my favourite performance in the film.

I got a serious Robert Patrick vibe of him.