Casino Royale 4K UHD (2006)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by zen007

Note that the quality of the presentation has been identified. As mentioned in my post, even the experts/pros have not given it a 9/10. Googled "Casino Royale 4K Review", the first two links gave this:

a) Link

Film Rating: A
Disc Ratings (Video/Audio/Extras): B+/A/B-

b) Link

Casino Royale 4K Blu-ray, Video Quality 3.5 of 5 1080p 4.0 of 5


A disc can be demo material within its category.


As for re-educating the consumers, I think they are knowledgeable enough to discern the nuances.

That's incredibly naive, if I may say so. If the "expert/pro reviewers" are ever more ignorant about what content should look like in 4K then what hope does the average joe/jane have?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by zen007

I agree that we are in an era where influencers, who are not necessarily subject experts, can create certain sentiments

But that not every disc can be demo material is not a strong argument for those who are seeking demo discs

Companies do not present an argument such as this disc is good because it optimizes our current resources, which are not enough to make the disc demo worthy.

Because the next question becomes "why would you not improve your current resources?"

The answer to that could be "Oh, the target market is not big enough for us to invest more in this project.?

If that the case, the disc is basically doing the minimum, which is not going to attract many takers.

And, again, I say that not every disc could or should be "demo material" as we're then throwing every last facet of creative intent under the bus in favour of presenting the tech as best as possible. As for "not improving your current resources", the problem with people like you and those you represent is that there's no nuance whatsoever here (ironic, given your comment above), as it's either "demo material" or a total waste of time. But there's still a massive scale between something doing the bare minimum and something that does actually present significant differences in how those "resources" are used without being "demo material", as CR does.

[zen007]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's incredibly naive, if I may say so. If the "expert/pro reviewers" are ever more ignorant about what content should look like in 4K then what hope does the average joe/jane have?

That reflects that word of mouth and what consumers feel is important

And, again, I say that not every disc could or should be "demo material" as we're then throwing every last facet of creative intent under the bus in favour of presenting the tech as best as possible. As for "not improving your current resources", the problem with people like you and those you represent is that there's no nuance here, it's either demo material or a total waste of time as there's still a massive scale between something doing the bare minimum and something that does actually present significant differences in how those "resources" are used without being "demo material", as CR does.

Therefore, titles such as CR fall into a domain where some will like them and some will criticize them as these titles do not meet the general consensus of being demo material.

[blam1]

It's worth noting the included BD with the set is the theatrical edition of "Casino Royale". The UHD contains only the uncut version.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by zen007

That reflects that word of mouth and what consumers feel is important

Consumers will often feel what the "pros" tell them to feel, if more of them actually had a clue then consumers would respond in kind, at least the ones who care enough about what they're buying to do something as nerdy as read a disc review in the first place (we home video nuts are already quite a select breed in that respect, most people don't give a crap and just buy the DVD/pirate it/watch a stream on their ipad).

But no, we've now entered a golden age of reviewing idiocy as any dilbert can type a few words or do a YT video which everyone believes as gospel, and that it's just happened to coincide with one of the more divisive and technically incompetent (in terms of wider handling of the tech at the manufacturer level) home video formats is the real tragedy here. There have always been dilberts who reviewed stuff without having a clue but now there's more of them than ever and most are doing this format a serious disservice.

Therefore, titles such as CR fall into a domain where some will like them and some will criticize them as these titles do not meet the general consensus of being demo material.

And I'm saying that they shouldn't HAVE to be demo mater....oh **** it, I can't be bothered.

[zen007]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And I'm saying that they shouldn't HAVE to be demo mater....oh **** it, I can't be bothered.

Unfortunately, most items will have a meter. To illustrate: To hire an intern, a company conducts a test. It shortlists two candidates and gives them 2 hrs to study for it.

Student A studies for 2 hours and scores a 90
Student B studies for 1.5 hours and scores a 75

Thee company hires Student A. Now if Student B makes an argument that he only studied for 1.5 hours and could have got 90 or more too if he had studied for 2 hours is irrelevant. He had the opportunity to study for 2 hours as well.

Student B can blame the company for a) keeping an irrelevant meter, b) not judging him for what he is, and c) do a re-education campaign to show that a 75 in 1.5 hours = 100 in 2 hours. But that does not take away the fact that he should have scored more!

[bradnoyes]

Yeah, I don't understand folk's obsession with "demo" material. If I had to make a list of my 10 best looking UHDs I'm not sure if even one-third of them would be something I'd classify as demo material. To me, demo material is something I would show someone who doesn't have a clue what they're looking at anyways but it's so glitzy that even my dog would stare at the screen. It's like the lowest common denominator of what looks appealing, so something being classified as demo material isn't necessarily the highest form of praise.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by zen007

Unfortunately, most items will have a meter. To illustrate: To hire an intern, a company conducts a test. It shortlists two candidates and gives them 2 hrs to study for it.

Student A studies for 2 hours and scores a 90
Student B studies for 1.5 hours and scores a 75

Thee company hires Student A. Now if Student B makes an argument that he only studied for 1.5 hours and could have got 90 or more too if he had studied for 2 hours is irrelevant. He had the opportunity to study for 2 hours as well.

Student B can blame the company for a) keeping an irrelevant meter, b) not judging him for what he is, and c) do a re-education campaign to show that a 75 in 1.5 hours = 100 in 2 hours. But that does not take away the fact that he should have scored more!

And who is SETTING the meter? Student C then says: unless it's a maths quiz then it's still going to be exposed to subjective judgements on behalf of those conducting the test, parameters which they have laid down according to their own criteria. If they absolutely MUST have the perfect intern every time then they're entitled to do so, they'll avoid some genuine slackers for sure but they will also miss out on some very capable contenders who may show aptitude in other areas that can't simply be defined in a quick one-off test.

[zen007]

Originally Posted by bradnoyes

Yeah, I don't understand folk's obsession with "demo" material. If I had to make a list of my 10 best looking UHDs I'm not sure if even one-third of them would be something I'd classify as demo material. To me, demo material is something I would show someone who doesn't have a clue what they're looking at anyways but it's so glitzy that even my dog would stare at the screen. It's like the lowest common denominator of what looks appealing, so something being classified as demo material isn't necessarily the highest form of praise.

By suggesting that you are actually making a point for a "meter" (like demo material) as people can have a subjective opinion on what their best looking discs are

[zen007]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And who is SETTING the meter?

in context for UHDs, the consumers, who even go by what they feel

Student C then says: unless it's a maths quiz then it's still going to be exposed to subjective judgements on behalf of those conducting the test, parameters which they have laid down according to their own criteria. If they absolutely MUST have the perfect intern every time then they're entitled to do so, they'll avoid some genuine slackers for sure but they will also miss out on some very capable contenders who may show aptitude in other areas that can't simply be defined in a quick one-off test.

That would be a calculated risk

[Geoff D]

Well that's what it comes down to, isn't it? People are so reluctant to go 4K because they don't want to upgrade everything yet again and the various sceptics who have gone 4K but still shit on it unless it's "demo material" need no extra reason to affirm their biases (but get a shit-ton of confirmation bias from all the clueless "reviews" anyway). There's a "risk" that's inherent to buying ANYTHING on 4K disc as to whether it'll meet those darned expectations, and the less of an open mind (or wallet) that people have then the more that risk becomes greater and greater.

But, again, it doesn't always come down to how much effort is actually put into it as we're not just dealing with numbers, we're dealing with art and how that's interpreted is also a major factor. Solo was shot 6.5K, finished in 4K and released on 4K disc but try spotting that anywhere near the lists of "demo material" as its darkly diffuse photography makes a mockery of the "meter" that some 4K sceptics have imposed on this format.

[bradnoyes]

Originally Posted by zen007

By suggesting that you are actually making a point for a "meter" (like demo material) as people can have a subjective opinion on what their best looking discs are

No, you're just seeing what you want to see.

Look, if you think every disc is supposed to be demo-worthy then you don't care about movies or the UHD format for the same reasons most people here do and I think it underlies some gross misconceptions you have about the technology behind the discs and the movies themselves.

[zen007]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Well that's what it comes down to, isn't it? People are so reluctant to go 4K because they don't want to upgrade everything yet again and the various sceptics who have gone 4K but still shit on it unless it's "demo material" need no extra reason to affirm their biases (but get a shit-ton of confirmation bias from all the clueless "reviews" anyway). There's a "risk" that's inherent to buying ANYTHING on 4K disc as to whether it'll meet those darned expectations, and the less of an open mind (or wallet) that people have then the more that risk becomes greater and greater.

But, again, it doesn't always come down to how much effort is actually put into it as we're not just dealing with numbers, we're dealing with art and how that's interpreted is also a major factor. Solo was shot 6.5K, finished in 4K and released on 4K disc but try spotting that anywhere near the lists of "demo material" as its darkly diffuse photography makes a mockery of the "meter" that some 4K sceptics have imposed on this format.

I agree that there are various factors that play a part in creating that "demo meter" (let's call it that for a lack of better alternative)

When it comes to reviews, the consumers will eventually dictate who gets listened to. For e.g. people like discs A but the reviewer does not, its reviews are not going to be high on the list. Eventually, we are talking about a general consensus, for e.g. an IMDB score for movies. A 9/10 rating on IMDB tells that it is a good movie in general. Some folks may rate a 7/10 movie at 10 and a 9/10 movie at 7, but the general consensus would refect that a film that is generally considered as quality by many will eventually get a high score (even after accounting for paid ratings)

Like the student and company example, where both are taking risks (one by studying less and the other by relying solely on the test), the companies take a risk too if they push a not so great product into the market

[zen007]

Originally Posted by bradnoyes

No, you're just seeing what you want to see.

It is up to the companies to see how the product looks and for consumers to decide if it meets their criteria, which eventually forms a general concensus

Look, if you think every disc is supposed to be demo-worthy then you don't care about movies or the UHD format for the same reasons most people here do and I think it underlies some gross misconceptions you have about the technology behind the discs and the movies themselves.

Not buying less than stellar UHDs is in no way related to a lack of love for movies. It is how the films look, the format is irrelevant (there would be folks who mainly watch films in cinemas and on TV, and not buy any discs unnecessarily). Some people even pay more for Criterion blue-ray discs than some of the UHDs

Talking about this thread, the discussion is on CR which many already own on other formats. The reasons to upgrade to UHD from HD would be different from many

[Cevolution]

“Demo worthy” for who? Yourself, guests, store showrooms for consumers?

If it’s for yourself, do you put a movie on for the sake of it just for a sample... watch a few scenes, and get off on how good it looks? I didn’t buy my 4k gear and movies to “demo it”, I bought them to experience the whole thing.

If it’s for guests, then all you’re really doing is wanting to show off and gloat about your tv to them... it’s not because you genuinely care about promoting the product and format.

If it’s for showroom floors for the benefit of consumers other than yourself, then who cares, you don’t know these people... if you’re on here, then you already have a better idea about this stuff than what you get a glimpse of on showroom floors.

[zen007]

Originally Posted by Cevolution

“Demo worthy” for who? Yourself, guests, store showrooms for consumers?

If it’s for yourself, do you put a movie on for the sake of it just for a sample... watch a few scenes, and get off on how good it looks? I didn’t buy my 4k gear and movies to “demo it”, I bought them to experience the whole thing.

If it’s for guests, then all you’re really doing is wanting to show off and gloat about your tv to them... it’s not because you genuinely care about promoting the product and format.

If it’s for showroom floors for the benefit of consumers other than yourself, then who cares, you don’t know these people... if you’re on here, then you already have a better idea about this stuff than what you get a glimpse of on showroom floors.

"demo worthy" in this case signifies the perceived high quality of the transfer (for a lack of a better choice of word) as you would usually demo only high-quality products .... How good a transfer is considered based on a general consensus

People can even watch SD films on youtube for themselves but that is not being discussed. What is discussed is how a product caters to those who expect the highest quality

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by zen007

"demo worthy" in this case signifies the perceived high quality of the transfer (for a lack of a better choice of word) as you would usually demo only high-quality products .... How good a transfer is considered based on a general consensus

People can even watch SD films on youtube for themselves but that is not being discussed. What is discussed is how a product caters to those who expect the highest quality

That "quality" is limited by the production being presented, though. A sublime transfer of a less-spectacular movie is probably not going to "wow" anyone, but that doesn't make it any less of a transfer... relative to the movie that it's a transfer of.

[zen007]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

That "quality" is limited by the production being presented, though. A sublime transfer of a less-spectacular movie is probably not going to "wow" anyone, but that doesn't make it any less of a transfer... relative to the movie that it's a transfer of.

I understand. My points are from a consumer perspective, accounting for both the quality of a film and its transfer (and maybe the one it deserves)

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Cevolution

If it’s for guests, then all you’re really doing is wanting to show off and gloat about your tv to them... it’s not because you genuinely care about promoting the product and format.

I usually say if there's one Blu-ray I'd show to demonstrate the format it's Star Trek: The Next Generation, I'd be wary of putting on a feature as I'd go for something very filmic.

I think there's some confusion with terminology. People might be confusing Demo Material with Reference Material.

The purpose of demo material is to highlight a product, so in this case, 4K, HDR and a wider colour gamut. With HD TVs they're usually set to Torch Mode™, a UHD demo would be along those lines. We then get a separation between what the public expects to see at home watching movies, a UHD Torch Mode™ and what they actually get. We get the same separation between Torch Mode, the preset used to sell a display and Movie Mode, people want their content searing their eyeballs for some reason.

Reference Material would be content done to a standard where you could hold it up against others to judge, whether it's compression, colour accuracy, dynamic range, gradation, whatever.

Reference material isn't always "demo worthy" for the Average Joe, but it usually is to us lot here. Demos can be fun, but I wouldn't want to sit through two hours of them.

[infiniteCR]

Agreed. The Hunt for Red October comes to mind; it didn't have the glitz and glamor of a demo disc, but to me is one of the best upgrades I've made on the format. I'm not seeing that situation here with CR though. If you're buying it for your first time, it seems like a no brainer though.