HDR Discussion Thread

[LordoftheRings]

Interlude ... for Penton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ_I...ature=youtu.be

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Interlude ... for Penton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ_I...ature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOPwHQOJKQQ#t=9m38s

having over the years done my share of physical international two-wheelin thru der mountains, for example like my jersey indicates from Germany to Italy -


and also in your neck of the woods –


but I’ve never done, nor even attempted something as technical as that

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

I just saw David Lee Roth last night.

, as an aside -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

a nuanced factoid from back in the day about his father, a man of many talents -
Dr. Nathan Roth (father of David Lee Roth) - YouTube

Flash forward to today – SoCal’ers in need of a referral to a retina doc for their friends or family these days? No problemo – make an appt. with Barry (a good friend and multi-lingual to boot) - https://www.faculty.uci.edu/profile.cfm?faculty_id=2230

He knows about this here video expert stuff - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vcwQHZQ-L4#t=31m11s which is a good thing, since once one loses retinal ganglion cells due to this or that malady, they don’t grow back (clinical trials with human stem cells notwithstanding) and you lose acuity and perception.

The Valencia GP HDR vs SDR shading in Mark’s presentation in that ^ YouTube is a bit dated because now the HDR shaders like at the last Super Bowl play a much more active role given cutting edge workflows compared to those old days.

Mark does make a good referral a little later in that video at about the 35 min. timestamp - “This is from a paper that I urge you all to read especially if you have any desire to do anything in HDR”
so for those of you who aren’t SMPTE members, you can pick up the concepts freely from this Arris link for as long as it stays viable - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post14945402

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Negative Waves in the Morning - YouTube

I mean if you don’t like using Dolby Vision IQ with your LG tv you can always disable the ambient light sensor manually and figure out better math for the Applied Vision Sciences Group for IQ’s use with consumers who refuse to watch in a light controlled room similar to a grading suite given their lifestyles. Next up for the group is developing a solution for –

meanwhile Geoffrey, positive waves - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post15629485
show your happy face once in a while like -

There is no "better math" I'd be able to proffer because the fundamental approach to 'improving' HDR viewing with lots of ambient light is to jack up the APL as you can't make a screen's peak brightness higher than what it actually is, as I've said repeatedly. I'm glad that HDR will now be made to accommodate people's "lifestyles", so big whoop for all those who watch telly with the sun streaming in through the windows or with lots of light on at night. But Kris is spot on with his loudness wars analogy, it's about crunching the dynamic range of the content so that it's visually 'loud' but it's going to kill the impact of the high end of the signal in particular.

Eh. As long as the content itself is still being graded to provide an expansion of range unfettered by concerns about ambient light then I can carry right on enjoying it in my own way, and as long as the IQ can always be disabled then that's fine too (not that I'd ever buy an LG TV if I could help it). I just hope that its overall effekt on the HDR-consuming populace doesn't filter up into the colourists' realm and lead to them starting to juice this stuff for the sake of it. Being able to turn something off that you don't like or have no use for is great, it's when it's baked in to the content that it becomes a problem. Really hope this isn't the start of the visual loudness wars.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

There is no "better math" I'd be able to proffer because the fundamental approach to 'improving' HDR viewing with lots of ambient light is to jack up the APL as you can't make a screen's peak brightness higher than what it actually is, as I've said repeatedly. I'm glad that HDR will now be made to accommodate people's "lifestyles", so big whoop for all those who watch telly with the sun streaming in through the windows or with lots of light on at night. But Kris is spot on with his loudness wars analogy, it's about crunching the dynamic range of the content so that it's visually 'loud' but it's going to kill the impact of the high end of the signal in particular.

Eh. As long as the content itself is still being graded to provide an expansion of range unfettered by concerns about ambient light then I can carry right on enjoying it in my own way, and as long as the IQ can always be disabled then that's fine too (not that I'd ever buy an LG TV if I could help it). I just hope that its overall effekt on the HDR-consuming populace doesn't filter up into the colourists' realm and lead to them starting to juice this stuff for the sake of it. Being able to turn something off that you don't like or have no use for is great, it's when it's baked in to the content that it becomes a problem. Really hope this isn't the start of the visual loudness wars.

Isn’t Disney Atmouse TR one result of the loudness wars? I can’t really imagine all the transgressions to come from the brightness wars.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Isn’t Disney Atmouse TR one result of the loudness wars? I can’t really imagine all the transgressions to come from the brightness wars.

Not really as they don't push them so loud until they clip, they do the reverse and master them a lot quieter. Speaking of Disnee I was just about to post this as regards my post above:

I say that last part [about hoping that it's not the start of the HDR loudness wars] because my own taste for what I like to see from HDR has very much settled on the 'APL at or below SDR levels with mild to bright highlights on top' approach, like what Disnee do, and such content is the antithesis of daytime viewing.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Eh. As long as the content itself is still being graded to provide an expansion of range unfettered by concerns about ambient light then I can carry right on enjoying it in my own way, and as long as the IQ can always be disabled then that's fine too (not that I'd ever buy an LG TV if I could help it). I just hope that its overall effekt on the HDR-consuming populace doesn't filter up into the colourists' realm and lead to them starting to juice this stuff for the sake of it. Being able to turn something off that you don't like or have no use for is great, it's when it's baked in to the content that it becomes a problem. Really hope this isn't the start of the visual loudness wars.

The problem is it has already started. They are already talking about raising "reference white" in the HDR signal from the previous 100 nits to 200 nits, and this is because the flat panel crowd finds HDR too dark because they were already watching SDR at 3-4x's the mastered brightness before. So we already see it creeping in to compensate.

In the audio world this was discussed at nauseam. The solution that would have benefitted both sides of the coin (those that wanted compression so you could actually listen to music in the car and noisier environments and those that truly wanted the most dynamic range) was leaving the recordings at their highest DR but having some kind of on the fly compression available to compensate that was OPTIONAL. The Dolby IQ thing sounds like just that, so it is actually on the better side of the options. What you don't want is what you referred to before where they actually bake in the compression. The faster they have solutions available in the displays and source devices, the less likely (hopefully) we see the content begin to get crunched down.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Webinar: February 2020 Update, HDR and LG C9 Calibration plus Ask Me Anything - YouTube

For those who missed it live, recording of the webinar is now available at Colour Training.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

There is no "better math" I'd be able to proffer because the fundamental approach to 'improving' HDR viewing with lots of ambient light is to jack up the APL as you can't make a screen's peak brightness higher than what it actually is, as I've said repeatedly. I'm glad that HDR will now be made to accommodate people's "lifestyles", so big whoop for all those who watch telly with the sun streaming in through the windows or with lots of light on at night.

Just so readers don’t only takeaway thee extreme nature of that ^, actually Dolby Vision IQ processing adjustment of the PQ curve working with the backlight also has the capability to adjust for ambient light changes from 0 nits up thru the standardizing bodies (SMPTE and ITU) recommended ambient light level for a reference environment (5 nits) and higher. How well it does that depends on how elegant the math is.

But what would lil ol me know about such things because I’m satisfied in simply seeing which of the crew (Max, in the back, couldn’t) of Top Gun: Maverick was able to jump on command during down time at various film locations - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post16944653

Van Halen - Jump (Official Music Video) - YouTube

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Kris

I like Kris (and mrtickle and Robert) for he appreciates quality - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post17351543

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

The problem is it has already started. They are already talking about raising "reference white" in the HDR signal from the previous 100 nits to 200 nits, and this is because the flat panel crowd finds HDR too dark because they were already watching SDR at 3-4x's the mastered brightness before. So we already see it creeping in to compensate.

As was mentioned to Staying Salty in a heads-up several months ago -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Guidance for operational practices in HDR television production as per -
https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/op...2019-PDF-E.pdf

see p.3, Table 1 – specifically 203 nits (both PQ and HLG)
seems broadcasters are becoming inclined to follow this.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Just so readers don’t only takeaway thee extreme nature of that ^, actually Dolby Vision IQ processing adjustment of the PQ curve working with the backlight also has the capability to adjust for ambient light changes from 0 nits up thru the standardizing bodies (SMPTE and ITU) recommended ambient light level for a reference environment (5 nits) and higher. How well it does that depends on how elegant the math is.

But what would lil ol me know about such things because I’m satisfied in simply seeing which of the crew (Max, in the back, couldn’t) of Top Gun: Maverick was able to jump on command during down time at various film locations - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post16944653

Van Halen - Jump (Official Music Video) - YouTube

I like Kris (and mrtickle and Robert) for he appreciates quality - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post17351543

You can like who you want to like, but if other people have the temerity to question things you'll just have to put up with it.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I hope this polygon article that Steve Yedlin retweeted and which he is referenced in so much finally puts the film vs. digital camera debate to rest - https://twitter.com/steveyedlin/stat...59725665853440

I can't tell if your post got many eyeballs on it, and I came across the article somewhere else today. So I'm going to post a link direct to the polygon story.
Apologies if I am stepping on any toes.

Hoping to see if this elicits any discussion / follow-up. First time I've seen 'halation' discussed.

The cinematographer of Knives Out wants to end the film-vs.-digital debate

Every movie lover has an opinion — but they may be asking the wrong questions

To anyone concerned with cinematography, the implications are huge: If you can make digital footage look convincingly like film, the debate over which format is visually superior is effectively moot. But for Yedlin, the first paradigm he hopes to change with his study isn’t actually about “film vs. digital,” but about how people think about cameras themselves.

https://www.polygon.com/2020/2/6/211...cinematography

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by gkolb

I can't tell if your post got many eyeballs on it, and I came across the article somewhere else today. So I'm going to post a link direct to the polygon story.
Apologies if I am stepping on any toes.

Hoping to see if this elicits any discussion / follow-up. First time I've seen 'halation' discussed.





https://www.polygon.com/2020/2/6/211...cinematography

I've read Yedlin's posts about digital vs film on his site, and he does bring up some great points, and his demo speaks for itself.

I'm impressed with the complexity of the mathematics that he uses, though. Obviously he doesn't give away his exact model that he uses, but he does use stochastic modeling. From what I've read on the subject, the Boolen-Poisson model from stochastic geometry is a pretty accurate approximation for film grain behavior. That's pretty advanced stuff.

[Lee A Stewart]

[LordoftheRings]

Cool shot ^

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

The problem is it has already started. They are already talking about raising "reference white" in the HDR signal from the previous 100 nits to 200 nits, and this is because the flat panel crowd finds HDR too dark because they were already watching SDR at 3-4x's the mastered brightness before. So we already see it creeping in to compensate.

In the audio world this was discussed at nauseam. The solution that would have benefitted both sides of the coin (those that wanted compression so you could actually listen to music in the car and noisier environments and those that truly wanted the most dynamic range) was leaving the recordings at their highest DR but having some kind of on the fly compression available to compensate that was OPTIONAL. The Dolby IQ thing sounds like just that, so it is actually on the better side of the options. What you don't want is what you referred to before where they actually bake in the compression. The faster they have solutions available in the displays and source devices, the less likely (hopefully) we see the content begin to get crunched down.

In lieu of a dynamic metadata option as standard it might've been a good idea to mandate this 200-nit white for HDR mastering from the start (though as with the guidelines in the BD-ROM specification to not exceed 1000 peak/400 average it would've been summarily ignored by some studios from the start anyway). It's taking it up up and away from there that concerns me and with Sony touting their own dynamic light sensing doohickey for some of their 2020 lines - what a coincidence that its announcement was timed alongside Dobly IQ - then clearly it's something that the manufacturers want to get a handle on.

And if they know of it then the studios certainly do, so I hope it doesn't become another DNR where they decide to pre-empt what the display technology can do (optional DNR having been part of TV processing for years) and just bake it into the source to appease the lowest common denominator. But then if most "HDR" TVs sold could actually do HDR worth a damn - I don't mean the sort of 'premium' displays we're rocking but the supermarket specials - then maybe it wouldn't have had such a poor representation in the eyes of the average joes and janes. Ugh, it's such a mess.

[Lee A Stewart]

The HDTV is officially dead

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1582801708

[Lee A Stewart]

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You can like who you want to like, but if other people have the temerity to question things you'll just have to put up with it.

lol, well I’m glad at least you didn’t question this – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post17342182
for although it likewise being valid, I’m very doubtful that pedigree information can be found anywhere on the internet…..only verifiable if one has personally heard George’s 4-legged friends howling in the background at his home

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

stochastic

That word triggers memories on the thread which was locked at about the 3½ million viewership mark in 2012, but now approaching 8 million views in the interim - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ic#post1733100