Is Criterion going 4K UHD HDR?

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

The Grand Budapest Hotel not receiving a 4K UHD is not a good sign. If they don't go UHD in 2020 then it's not going to happen.

that's what I'm fearing as well ... with 'Parasite' getting a really lame near barebones release from Universal - Criterion could (and should) release a deluxe edition (bluray AND UHD) later in the year.

I guess that little blurb from Soderbergh, 4K, HDR and Criterion was just conjecture and wishful thinking.

[dwk]

GBH was finished in 2K and I think it would be a long shot for an early/first UHD from a boutique label to be anything that wasn't 100% finished in 4K. (Could you imagine if Hoop Dreams was one of Criterion's first Blu-rays?)

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by dwk

During the HTF interview, Lee Kline mentioned that they did a HDR passes on Rumble Fish, Blood Simple, and some other unnamed titles, but he didn't announce any plans for 4K UHD discs.

I've seen that podcast referenced a few times on this forum, and since I guess it's a slow day at work, I took a stab at transcribing the relevant bits.

Home Theater Forum: Does Criterion have any plans for releasing titles on disc in 4K UHD or streaming in 4K?

Lee Kline: Yeah, everybody wants to know about that. I mean, you know, I'm not here to give strategies or to give numbers about, you know, what sales are and things like that. I'm really a tech guy. I know there's been a lot of talk about these 4K discs...4K streaming. Not a day goes by where we don't discuss it and try to figure it out. You know, the market is...it's not a big market. That's part of the problem.

Would I personally like to see these 4...absolutely! Do you think I want to master, remaster everything in 4K and then just see it go out in HD? It's one of the things I love about DCPs. If we make something in 4K and we make a DCP of it, you can go in the theater and see it in 4K. Truly, that's the best way to do it. There's no doubt about it. It's the least compressed of the 4K methods, it looks great on a big screen if you go to a great theater with great sound with a good audience. Not always the case!

So I can't really say when or when there will be a 4K disc. I hope there is. I don't know. It's something that we would love to do. I have to leave it at that. There's probably a more detailed explanation to it. I can't really give it. All I know is that I'm fighting for it too. I would love to see it, and if we can make it happen for reasons beyond my control, then we'll do it.

HTF: And so, it's not like you just add it to one part of your chain, right? You have to start at the beginning...

LK: You need a new UPC code, you need everything. A new package.

HTF: And then you're selling it to a consumer who may or may not be able to take advantage.

LK: Correct. And the other thing about it to me is interesting, like...I don't know who are the people that are asking for the 4K discs.

HTF: Home Theater Forum readers. (laughs)

LK: I know that. What I don't know is: what are they watching on? 50"? Maybe even 65" or less? An HD Blu-ray looks pretty damn good. It's hard to see a difference on a screen that size from HD to 4K. That's another reason that there's complexity with the decision because how many people are watching on projectors and on 100" screens? I don't...okay.

HTF: (laughs)

LK: You and maybe a few hundred other people are. But again, I don't know the numbers. I don't know the strategy behind it.

HTF: It's a big expense, right?

LK: It's a big expense. We're ready. We've got these 4K remasters ready to go, so we can do it. But for now, you'll have to go to the theater and hopefully see the 4K DCP.

HTF: We were looking at some of your editing suites today and were talking about the aspect of HDR on it, and so there are ways to do HDR in a subtle way and give more director-intent versus just overwhelming you with color and sound and stuff like that. The Criterion market's probably more towards the first of those, right? To try to be more true versus bombastic?

LK: I would think so, but, you know, when we first started looking at HDR examples, let's say, whether we were at labs where they were doing it or the first discs...you know, what we saw were when we had done Blood Simple, we did a standard dynamic range version of it first, then we did an HDR version. The Coen Brothers came in, watched the SDR version, and signed off, made their changes. Then we said, "okay, we want to show you this high dynamic range version." "Oh, what's that?" And we tried to tell them, and so we said "come up, let's go see it." So we're in a lab in L.A., and we went up to the HDR monitor and showed it to them. And they go, looked at it, and they watched it for a few minutes and were like, "okay". And that's all they said. And then we thought, "well, they weren't that excited about it."

And then we have someone like Steven Soderbergh who, after we worked on Sex, Lies, and Videotape said "I want to do an HDR pass", and we said, "yeah, okay". So he came in here and...I remember saying to him first, I was like, you know, "what do you want to enunciate with HDR, because you basically have muted highlights in most of the movie?" "Because I just want to make it pop in a few places." So we went in, we'd go 10 minutes, and then "that light, a little boost, maybe up to 150-200 nits", and he said "that's it." And I love the fact that he didn't abuse the technology. He just used it where it made sense. And it all clicked for me when someone who's thought about it -- who actually knows what this means -- I mean, he's very technical. He clearly understands HDR, and he used it wisely.

So since then, we've done a few things. We've done Rumble Fish, was another one to name one, and Francis Coppola did it and approved that. Did he think it was a revelation? No, but he's really into technology, and he liked the idea of being able to do it. And if you go see the new Apocalypse Now, it's pretty spectacular. I just did a talk in Bologna, Italy at the film festival there with their guys who did the restoration of that, and that's something that you'll want to get for your home in HDR. It's gonna be your show-off disc, yeah.

[KubrickKurasawa]

Guy never mentions I wonder how many people have Blu-Ray that buy the 4K with the Blu-Ray. LOL. But I get it they want more profit margin b4 they release them and want to milk Their DVD and Blu-Ray catalog because they're cheaper to produce and a bigger market. We get it. Don't need interviews about it anymore move on.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

...with the risk of repeating myself, the reason Criterion has not as of yet released a UHD disc or begun the widespread transition of their catalog to UHD, is simply that the consumer, monetary and business considerations do not support it.

But we already know that, because if they did, then we would have a Criterion UHD disc in our hands. But we don't. Not saying that we won't in the near future, which I believe is true, but we don't.

Posted this four or five months ago, and with each month I become less and less optimistic that Criterion will make the jump to UHD physical media and will focus on bringing select 4K HDR titles to the Channel. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I'm just not feeling it at the moment, and reading between the lines of Lee's comments, it seems as if the curtain is falling on the brief window of the opportunity for UHD media to find its market.

[LordoftheRings]

I've been saying it too for quite a while...The Criterion Collection going 4K...that'll be the day.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

I've been saying it too for quite a while...The Criterion Collection going 4K...that'll be the day.

Yes, if by "the" you mean, "an awesome".

[infiniteCR]

Doesn't make cents to put out a 4k for them. Seems pretty straightforward. Maybe it could if they got their hands on a current blockbuster.

[LordoftheRings]

Yes, if by "the" you mean, "an awesome".

But of course doctor. ... The Criterion Collection is "an awesome" film collection.

[tama]

That'll be an awesome day.


I just don't see it anymore. Even in the manner it's discussed feels like there is a passing knowledge of 4K/UHD. As if it's stuck to mere resolution only. HDR is vaguely discussed with no mention of the wider color gamut and the benefits it brings as well.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

But of course doctor. ... The Criterion Collection is "an awesome" film collection.

I did say "the", not "The".

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

I did say "the", not "The".

Lol, you're becoming too fussy.

[infiniteCR]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Lol, you're becoming too fussy.

Don’t mess with The Boss, Baby.

[Streetlight]

Parasite got a UHD in US... from Universal, not from Criterion.

The Price is Right Losing Horn - Gaming Sound Effect (HD) - YouTube

[Dubstar]

^ my deciding factor is what the audio on the 4K disc will be, if there's no Dolby Atmos mix, then I'll just wait for the Criterion edition.

[moreorless]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

Posted this four or five months ago, and with each month I become less and less optimistic that Criterion will make the jump to UHD physical media and will focus on bringing select 4K HDR titles to the Channel. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I'm just not feeling it at the moment, and reading between the lines of Lee's comments, it seems as if the curtain is falling on the brief window of the opportunity for UHD media to find its market.

I think with regards to Criterion the issue is more whether there is a market for their kind of releases on UHD. The format might have been around for awhile but so far the majority of releases have been relatively mainstream blockbusters, Studio channel and a few others have pushed into a little towards cultish films but still stuff like Don't Look Now and Angel heart are relatively mainstream and indeed horror, more the market of other 3rd party labels like Arrow.

I'm guessing they might well be looking closely at how well Lynch's Elephant Man does on UHD.

[Streetlight]

One thing that's probably holding Criterion and other small distributors back from 4K other than market is that they likely hadn't adjusted their workflow to HEVC encoding and HDR + WCG grading.

They might upgrade to 4K one day, but by that time, 4K will be cheap and slightly outdated, all the big distributors are on 8K, and people will be complaining about when Criterion will go 8K.

[brainofj72]

Originally Posted by Streetlight

One thing that's probably holding Criterion and other small distributors back from 4K other than market is that they likely hadn't adjusted their workflow to HEVC encoding and HDR + WCG grading.

They might upgrade to 4K one day, but by that time, 4K will be cheap and slightly outdated, all the big distributors are on 8K, and people will be complaining about when Criterion will go 8K.

8K physical media isn't happening. I don't know why people pushing this nonsense.

[Streetlight]

I never said that the big studios will go on 8K disc, they might go to 8K digital, maybe. 4K HEVC HDR WCG tech would probably eventually become inexpensive enough for small distributors to use.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Streetlight

One thing that's probably holding Criterion and other small distributors back from 4K other than market is that they likely hadn't adjusted their workflow to HEVC encoding and HDR + WCG grading.

They might upgrade to 4K one day, but by that time, 4K will be cheap and slightly outdated, all the big distributors are on 8K, and people will be complaining about when Criterion will go 8K.

The encoding is completely on the authoring house, not the label themselves, and if any authorer deemed competent enough to be employed by any major label couldn't use HEVC in the year 2020 I'd seriously be questioning the decision to hire them, even if only using them for AVC-related stuff.

As for 8K Criterion already think that 4K itself is snake oil, their technical guru Lee Kline being of the opinion that people need gigantic 100" displays that they're sitting three feet away from to get any resolution benefit, and because Kline and Co. mix in filmmaker circles where the reaction to HDR is basically "meh" they don't GAF about that either. IMO Arrow are of the same mindset, that 4K HDR is something that's aimed at a niche of a niche of a niche so they're not going to spend the time and money pursuing it. James White actually said in a 2017 interview that he feels that offering a 4K disc would alienate their core Blu-ray customers as they'd feel they're no longer getting the best version of whatever movie.