Why The Phantom Menace is the best Star Wars film

[HenriDeadMort]

The purpose of this thread is for me to convince you the that TPM is indeed the greatest one

The Phantom Menace is the greatest Star Wars film. (and if not it's the 2nd best, can't see it lower)
Why?
Because first of all it's a much more subtle remake of EP4 than EP7 did
(mainly because there a slight differences and also different point of view)
We are introduced to clumsy humor characters
Jar Jar/R2D2 and (mostly) C3P0
They are stuck , and must fly very well to get enough
Stuck on Tatooine , Podrace/ Stuck in space, Asteroids
"Old" jedi tells hero how the force works and how to use it
Qui Gon to Anakin/Obi Wan to Luke
Some Important people are held captive
Padme (technically no, but she is stuck on Tatooine then on Naboo so i stand my point)/Leia
A young "hero" with 0 experience in flying spaceships Shoots some weak point in a big space object, with it battle is won
Anakin/Luke
"Old" Jedi is killled
Qui Gon/Obi Wan
Bad guy is killed, but not his faction
Darth Maul/Tarkin
i could give more stuff but i think that's enough to get my point.
Midichlorians aren't a problem.
Qui Gon says everything is made of Midichlorians, and rather some people have more Midichlorians than others.
if you played Kotor 2, the player "loses" the force, because they are in exile, AKA losing midichlorians. Because even if you have a somewhat high count of midichlorians, if you dont believe in the force you cant use it.
This is why Yoda is skeptical (And Windu) to train anakin, he's already 9. a high age where he could have lost most of his Midichlorians.
It's a bit like genes, but look at it like Health or fitness (especially weight).
Some people gain/lose weight more easily than others.
but no matter how easily you gain weight, with a good diet, regular physical exercise you will lose it.
Jar Jar.
Apart from the accent which i can understand might offend some, get over it, Jar Jar is supposed to be irritating, he annoys Qui Gon throughout the entire movie, it's the reason he exists. C3P0 in the original is just as dumb if not more than him. And i agree, it's (the movie) orientated towards younger people, but as with the C3P0 example, and also that Lucas said Jar Jar is inspired by Goofy. you can't blame the character so much.
Anakin.
Yes, Jake Lloyd is not a great actor, but the whole dialogue he has and attitude is really realistic.
he's (Anakin) hated by many, probably because he is a slave, isn't very social (seen by how he spent most of his time building C3P0). And as someone who is Really not social, i said much dumber stuff than Anakin at the age of 9. And although the following is not a great argument, remember he was 9!!!.
He ain't not Robert deNiro, of course it's not the greatest performance of all time. What i'm trying to say (in correlation with the realistic part) is that there is a damn reason Lucas chose Lloyd.
Dialogue

I seriously don't understand this one.
Really.
Apart from the above 2 characters, if you want me to make any arguments, you'll have to give me specific examples.
i will say however that in the Original Trilogy (apart from maybe Ep5) the dialogue isn't the greatest thing either. so i don't understand this Specific complaint people have.
I can't really think of any other major complaints for this movie.
Thanks for reading, i hope more people have interesting opinions to discuss (about other movies)

[BladeRunner2007]

You're wrong because of this

[HenriDeadMort]

Originally Posted by BladeRunner2007

You're wrong because of this

2 can play at that game.

Harrison Ford is the Worst part of Blade Runner

[BladeRunner2007]

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

2 can play at that game.

Harrison Ford is the Worst part of Blade Runner

[HenriDeadMort]

Originally Posted by BladeRunner2007

edit

Don't worry, Blade Runner is in my top 10 movies (below The Phantom Menace though).
Even Ray McCoy is better as a protagonist

[HenriDeadMort]

Originally Posted by BladeRunner2007

Is that supposed to be a low budget Tears in Rain?

[BladeRunner2007]

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

Is that supposed to be a low budget Tears in Rain?

It means as heartbreaking as your statement about Harrison Ford may be, I have to agree.

[wonderer99]

Nope cant be bothered. I state my unpopular opinions in that thread. I have no need to defend them extensively. My opinion is all I really care about anyway.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by wonderer99

Nope cant be bothered. I state my unpopular opinions in that thread. I have no need to defend them extensively. My opinion is all I really care about anyway.

^This.

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

The purpose of this thread is for me to convince you the that TPM is indeed the greatest one

[Show spoiler]
The Phantom Menace is the greatest Star Wars film. (and if not it's the 2nd best, can't see it lower)
Why?
Because first of all it's a much more subtle remake of EP4 than EP7 did
(mainly because there a slight differences and also different point of view)
We are introduced to clumsy humor characters
Jar Jar/R2D2 and (mostly) C3P0
They are stuck , and must fly very well to get enough
Stuck on Tatooine , Podrace/ Stuck in space, Asteroids
"Old" jedi tells hero how the force works and how to use it
Qui Gon to Anakin/Obi Wan to Luke
Some Important people are held captive
Padme (technically no, but she is stuck on Tatooine then on Naboo so i stand my point)/Leia
A young "hero" with 0 experience in flying spaceships Shoots some weak point in a big space object, with it battle is won
Anakin/Luke
"Old" Jedi is killled
Qui Gon/Obi Wan
Bad guy is killed, but not his faction
Darth Maul/Tarkin
i could give more stuff but i think that's enough to get my point.
Midichlorians aren't a problem.
Qui Gon says everything is made of Midichlorians, and rather some people have more Midichlorians than others.
if you played Kotor 2, the player "loses" the force, because they are in exile, AKA losing midichlorians. Because even if you have a somewhat high count of midichlorians, if you dont believe in the force you cant use it.
This is why Yoda is skeptical (And Windu) to train anakin, he's already 9. a high age where he could have lost most of his Midichlorians.
It's a bit like genes, but look at it like Health or fitness (especially weight).
Some people gain/lose weight more easily than others.
but no matter how easily you gain weight, with a good diet, regular physical exercise you will lose it.
Jar Jar.
Apart from the accent which i can understand might offend some, get over it, Jar Jar is supposed to be irritating, he annoys Qui Gon throughout the entire movie, it's the reason he exists. C3P0 in the original is just as dumb if not more than him. And i agree, it's (the movie) orientated towards younger people, but as with the C3P0 example, and also that Lucas said Jar Jar is inspired by Goofy. you can't blame the character so much.
Anakin.
Yes, Jake Lloyd is not a great actor, but the whole dialogue he has and attitude is really realistic.
he's (Anakin) hated by many, probably because he is a slave, isn't very social (seen by how he spent most of his time building C3P0). And as someone who is Really not social, i said much dumber stuff than Anakin at the age of 9. And although the following is not a great argument, remember he was 9!!!.
He ain't not Robert deNiro, of course it's not the greatest performance of all time. What i'm trying to say (in correlation with the realistic part) is that there is a damn reason Lucas chose Lloyd.
Dialogue

I seriously don't understand this one.
Really.
Apart from the above 2 characters, if you want me to make any arguments, you'll have to give me specific examples.
i will say however that in the Original Trilogy (apart from maybe Ep5) the dialogue isn't the greatest thing either. so i don't understand this Specific complaint people have.
I can't really think of any other major complaints for this movie.
Thanks for reading, i hope more people have interesting opinions to discuss (about other movies)

A lot of this seems to boil down to an appreciation of the story's stakes, conflicts, relationships, act structure, archetypes, and parallels to A New Hope. And I agree--much of this, including the dense political aspects, have kept my interest too.

This movie really excited me when it came out for many of these same reasons--as an adult with a more critical eye, I have to admit that the middle sags a lot for me these days, and it just doesn't elicit the same level of excitement like it used to.

[HenriDeadMort]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

A lot of this seems to boil down to an appreciation of the story's stakes, conflicts, relationships, act structure, archetypes, and parallels to A New Hope. And I agree--much of this, including the dense political aspects, have kept my interest too.

This movie really excited me when it came out for many of these same reasons--as an adult with a more critical eye, I have to admit that the middle sags a lot for me these days, and it just doesn't elicit the same level of excitement like it used to.

As the genius Norm Macdonald about jokes (and quite frankly it applies to movies)
something along the lines of
"You know, you need a beginning, a middle and an end to a joke, but no one remembers the ****ing middle, so i just try to have a great beginning and end"

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

As the genius Norm Macdonald about jokes (and quite frankly it applies to movies)
something along the lines of
"You know, you need a beginning, a middle and an end to a joke, but no one remembers the ****ing middle, so i just try to have a great beginning and end"

I don't agree. In fact, I consider this extraordinarily misinformed and disingenuous. This is no excuse for writing a middle part (or ANY part of a story) that's boring.

Mr. Macdonald's advice sounds great for comedy when all you need is a setup and a punchline, but this is not how narrative fiction (including screenplays) work. After all, everybody remembers the middle bits of Empire Strikes Back, and many other movies. Sometimes, the middle turning point can be the juiciest part (and come to think of it, I don't even think TPM has that kind of point, unless you count the Podrace scene).

TPM has a fair structure, but it doesn't have character agency. The plot is literally driving the characters point-to-point--the only real decisions the characters make are the ones to retake Theed, and arguably Anakin's decision to leave Tatooine when he's free. For the rest of the film, characters follow a predestined path we can all see coming for miles (including the Podrace subplot, which is predictable because it can only end one way for the story to continue). Their actions become artificial, and thus uninteresting. Pacing slows to a crawl--precisely because the characters are stuck in one place and only have one trajectory to leave. When when they do leave, we're given another 15 minutes or so of Coruscant scenes, which are the stiffest and driest in the whole movie. It's a shame, because there are plenty of story problems that emerge out of the middle act, but momentum and tension are just barely there.

Good storytelling requires plots and characters that change and have arcs. This means they need to take action, fail, rise, react to problems, and learn things. I can't tell you any point in which the characters in TPM fail, learn, or change, they just kind of do things until things fall into place. It didn't have to be written this way, but it is. Lucas was never great with actors or writing, he was always more invested in the technology and editing. If he penned TPM without additional input, then of course it'd come up dry.

You need more than a beginning and end. ANH, TESB, and ROTJ had plenty of meat in their middles. If they didn't, they'd never have been as memorable or endearing, and we might have never even had the prequels made in the first place. You may think that TPM is the best of the lot and that's fine, but for any movie or story, the middle part of story does matter.

[The Debts]

I hate revisionist Star Wars fans.

[HenriDeadMort]

Originally Posted by The Debts

I hate revisionist Star Wars fans.

doesn't matter.
it's Lucas

[HenriDeadMort]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

I don't agree. In fact, I consider this extraordinarily misinformed and disingenuous. This is no excuse for writing a middle part (or ANY part of a story) that's boring.

Mr. Macdonald's advice sounds great for comedy when all you need is a setup and a punchline, but this is not how narrative fiction (including screenplays) work. After all, everybody remembers the middle bits of Empire Strikes Back, and many other movies. Sometimes, the middle turning point can be the juiciest part (and come to think of it, I don't even think TPM has that kind of point, unless you count the Podrace scene).

TPM has a fair structure, but it doesn't have character agency. The plot is literally driving the characters point-to-point--the only real decisions the characters make are the ones to retake Theed, and arguably Anakin's decision to leave Tatooine when he's free. For the rest of the film, characters follow a predestined path we can all see coming for miles (including the Podrace subplot, which is predictable because it can only end one way for the story to continue). Their actions become artificial, and thus uninteresting. Pacing slows to a crawl--precisely because the characters are stuck in one place and only have one trajectory to leave. When when they do leave, we're given another 15 minutes or so of Coruscant scenes, which are the stiffest and driest in the whole movie. It's a shame, because there are plenty of story problems that emerge out of the middle act, but momentum and tension are just barely there.

Good storytelling requires plots and characters that change and have arcs. This means they need to take action, fail, rise, react to problems, and learn things. I can't tell you any point in which the characters in TPM fail, learn, or change, they just kind of do things until things fall into place. It didn't have to be written this way, but it is. Lucas was never great with actors or writing, he was always more invested in the technology and editing. If he penned TPM without additional input, then of course it'd come up dry.

You need more than a beginning and end. ANH, TESB, and ROTJ had plenty of meat in their middles. If they didn't, they'd never have been as memorable or endearing, and we might have never even had the prequels made in the first place. You may think that TPM is the best of the lot and that's fine, but for any movie or story, the middle part of story does matter.

On the top of my head from Empire i remember
Hoth, Cloud City and I am you father.
I forget most middles in movies, it generally where i'm either hooked in the movie, or want it to end.
TPM is not (for the most part) plot driven.
They save Jar Jar, but they are never required to follow him, they are jedi, they could battle through the "forest"
Podrace could end in a loss, and they steal the winner's gain, manipulate Watto (like the dice) or steal Maul's ship, or idk but it could work.
and besides, Anakin is "The one" of course he's going to win.
Qui gon fails 2 times. 1 time (obviously) he dies, and the 2nd is that he was able to convince the council to train Anakin (his death means he was never able to supervise Anakin, meaning the Grey path was never shown to him contributing to his fall to the dark side)
Anakin learns more of the force, gets a bit over his fear.
Jar Jar is none, but so were the Droids in the original trilogy
Obi Wan defeats Maul, but fails to save his master
Padme i don't know
for the rest of your arguments, could you please point to specific examples?

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

On the top of my head from Empire i remember
Hoth, Cloud City and I am you father.

Does Luke of Dagobah ring a bell? Or the Falcon being chased through asteroids and such?

No?

Bummer.

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

TPM is not (for the most part) plot driven.

I disagree--all the Star Wars films are plot-driven. TMP by definition fits a three-act story structure very smoothly--it has an inciting incident (the blockade and failed negotiations, all story problems that have to be solved for the whole movie). The exposition and rising action follows, consisting mostly of one point leading to another (a plotting technique all the SW films borrow from old serials--a constant string of cliffhangers and characters getting out of danger). The hyperdrive leaking becomes a story problem that drives the entire Tatooine subplot (which includes additional story problems revolving around Anakin, the Podrace, getting parts, encountering Maul, etc). Coruscant introduces more problems, leaving the entire last act of the movie as the climax. All of this is plot, and the characters follow it like a roadmap.

But in other movies, like A New Hope, it's the other way around--the characters influence the plot, not the plot influencing the characters. Luke and Obi-Wan chose to hire Han to start their adventure, the three chose to sneak around the Death Star, Luke and Han chose to rescue Leia, Obi-Wan chooses to sacrifice himself, they all choose to attack the Death Star--all of that is character agency.

If these movies weren't plot-driven, they'd be story-based. Like Citizen Kane, a movie all about character but a jumbled-up narrative. Watch that and you'd see the difference pretty quick.

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

Podrace could end in a loss, and they steal the winner's gain, manipulate Watto (like the dice) or steal Maul's ship, or idk but it could work.

I had thought about this before--the issue I have with the scene is how it's set up beforehand. All of the heroes' stakes ride on the Podrace--even Padme brought up how foolish it seems, when every sign points to Anakin possibly losing. You could argue that Qui-Gon's show of faith is an affirmation in the Force doing its thing, or the prophecy being true, but it doesn't change the fact that you go into the Podrace scene knowing that Anakin has to win--there is another half of a movie to go through, we all know Anakin leaves Tatooine at some point, so this is all a no-brainer. Thus, if you skip the Podrace scene entirely, you simply get to the next plot point and move on. But it takes something like seven minutes to get there--that's where it becomes a drag (and unfortunately many movies do this nowadays--look at how all these Transformers movies have minutes of action beats but no actual story progression).

One thing I noticed from Alita: Battle Angel is that it has its own racing/sports scene, but it remains tense because its interrupted by a whole bunch of bad guys gaining up on the heroine. At a certain point, the Motorball match became irrelevant to to the greater stakes, and they all just kinda left the ring on an extended chase. TPM could have gone the same route if Darth Maul appeared and tried to engage the Jedi or kidnap Padme--sabotaging the race or forcing Anakin to quit could have been an interesting way to change the story's course, spark character agency, and force them all to find a different solution (and this could have segued nicely into one detail that's never brought up again--they could have disabled Anakin's explosive implant to free him).

This is just me spitballing it of course--the scene could have probably been written many other ways. As it is now, it feels like it's just going through the motions.

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

and besides, Anakin is "The one" of course he's going to win.

I think this might be one of the reasons why writers everywhere are being told to stop writing stories about "chosen ones." If Anakin always wins in situations like this, then where's the tension?

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

Qui gon fails 2 times. 1 time (obviously) he dies, and the 2nd is that he was able to convince the council to train Anakin (his death means he was never able to supervise Anakin, meaning the Grey path was never shown to him contributing to his fall to the dark side)

True, but this is nowhere near as drastic as ANH's story, where all of the heroes are captured halfway through the movie.

I had learned from a writer's conference once that the vast majority of movies can be split pretty evenly in quarters, and just about every movie has a point halfway through where the heroes' plans fail in some way and they're forced to change, adapt, and form a new plan before the final act. This clearly happens in most SW movies--TPM though, I struggle to think of what that moment is.

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

Anakin learns more of the force, gets a bit over his fear.

Does he though? He was screened for Jedi training, then denied--Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan never really taught him any specific lessons, save for a few passing lines (like "focus determines reality," but that's more like encouragement).

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

Jar Jar is none, but so were the Droids in the original trilogy

It's not like every character needs an arc, just the leads primarily (although I do admire some of the minor arcs that happen with other characters in the series).

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

for the rest of your arguments, could you please point to specific examples?

Examples of....which argument again? My arguments were quite broad, and I've given them based on my own study of storytelling. There are quite a few TPM reviews that have underscored all the same points I've made, including the Mr. Plinkett reviews on YT. One review from '99 can be read here.

When it comes specifically to the "sagging middle" syndrome, there are plenty of articles that address it broadly, though not referencing TPM specifically. It is something that affects many films though, and it could be a reason why you may not remember certain things about certain movies. Here's one article.

Now, if you want an example of a film that doesn't have a boring or forgettable middle, I can gladly point you in a few directions. Firstly--ANH, what with the Death Star, the detention center shootout, the trash compactor, the duel, the dogfight. That's some good stuff right there. Otherwise, you can always explore films we consider classics--for all that goes, The Hidden Fortress was the inspiration for ANH's plot, and you could watch that to see how it keeps things rolling in the middle acts.

[imsounoriginal]

TPM isn't the best Star Wars movie but it might be the one I've watched the most often. It's certainly my favorite of the Prequels.

[levcore]

I don't need convincing, I've always thought it was the best Star Wars movie.

[JustinB13]

Um

[HenriDeadMort]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

TPM isn't the best Star Wars movie but it might be the one I've watched the most often. It's certainly my favorite of the Prequels.

TMP is definitely top 3.
Revenge of the sith is (if i take a more objective look) probably the best.
i think Empire is overrated (definitely the top but not number 1) and in the top 3 is either ANH or Empire