Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by SCLee

I call bs on that. It never once went that high. It didn't reach 30 mbps in the opening two minutes. Even more interested in what Vilya says now...

And yes I am watching a film (at the same time.) Tomorrow Never Dies (Blu Ray) which is running at 18 mpbs (no more than 19) and not the 28 mpbs (average) that Blu Ray.com claims.

This is getting very interesting, because Bitrate has been directly corrilated with File Size and not the actual readings. Wendell has Posted Netflix Average Bitrate readings, and they have always been below 5Mbps which didn't make sense to me until now. When ever we look at actual Bitrates for Streaming they are always very low, but Disc Average Bitrates are always higher. Could it be because Actual and Average are very different!

[Vilya]

I have watched the first 3:09 of Alita Battle Angel 4K disc played on my Oppo 203 and displayed upon my Sony 85XBR900F TV. I took photographs of the TV screen with my phone to document what information was displayed at each time stamp. Information is from the Oppo 203.

At 8 seconds in, Fox Logo, the bitrate was 33.4 Mbps. (Picture ABA1, not shown)
At 23 seconds in the bitrate was 59.5 Mbps. (Picture ABA2)
At 32 seconds in, black screen with only text, the bitrate was was 4.2 Mbps. (Picture ABA3)
At 1 minute 38 seconds in the bitrate was 61.8 Mbps. (Picture ABA4)
At 2 minutes 12 seconds in the bitrate was 62.0 Mbps. (Picture ABA5)
At 3 minutes 9 seconds in the bitrate was 80.4 Mbps. (Picture ABA6)

The quality of the pictures taken vary because my phone is evil, but all pictures are legible. Behind spoilers are the five pictures:

[Show spoiler]Attachment 237520

ABA2.jpg

ABA3.jpg

ABA4.jpg

ABA5.jpg

ABA6.jpg

I am only allowed to attach five images in a single post; that is why I did not attach ABA1.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

This is getting very interesting, because Bitrate has been directly corrilated with File Size and not the actual readings. Wendell has Posted Netflix Average Bitrate readings, and they have always been below 5Mbps which didn't make sense to me until now. When ever we look at actual Bitrates for Streaming they are always very low, but Disc Average Bitrates are always higher. Could it be because Actual and Average are very different!

Don't hurt yourself there.

Averages are exactly that, the total amount of data transferred divided by the amount of time. The bitrate at any given moment will vary as shown in the sample pictures that I took.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

This group can be Vicious!

We are as lovable as can be.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by SCLee

I call bs on that.

Before you can call BS on something you have to know what you are talking about and you do not. BDInfo is a free download so you can easily duplicate what I did if your PC can read a UHD BD disc. Just read the disc then do the arithmetic. There are 14 audio tracks that go with this title.

I did several data rate spot checks using a Oppo UDP-203, the video data would vary between about 40 to 50 Mbps and would hover around 45 Mbps. The Dolby Atmos track varied between about 3.5 to 5 Mbps hanging around 5 Mbps. So the total for video and Atmos was on average about 45 to 50 Mbps on these spot checks. Add to this the other 13 audio tracks, FE, servo control, etc. and the average should come pretty close to the calculated average.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I just checked Tomorrow Never Dies on my PC

What software did you use? Will it read UHD BD disc? Always looking for the BBD.

[SCLee]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I have watched the first 3:09 of Alita Battle Angel 4K disc played on my Oppo 203 and displayed upon my Sony 85XBR900F TV. I took photographs of the TV screen with my phone to document what information was displayed at each time stamp. Information is from the Oppo 203.

At 8 seconds in, Fox Logo, the bitrate was 33.4 Mbps. (Picture ABA1, not shown)
At 23 seconds in the bitrate was 59.5 Mbps. (Picture ABA2)
At 32 seconds in, black screen with only text, the bitrate was was 4.2 Mbps. (Picture ABA3)
At 1 minute 38 seconds in the bitrate was 61.8 Mbps. (Picture ABA4)
At 2 minutes 12 seconds in the bitrate was 62.0 Mbps. (Picture ABA5)
At 3 minutes 9 seconds in the bitrate was 80.4 Mbps. (Picture ABA6)

The quality of the pictures taken vary because my phone is evil, but all pictures are legible. Behind spoilers are the five pictures:

[Show spoiler]Attachment 237520

Attachment 237523

Attachment 237524

Attachment 237525

Attachment 237526

Attachment 237527

I am only allowed to attach five images in a single post; that is why I did not attach ABA1.

So somehow I'm gonna have to take pictures now to prove it to you guys... oh well, leave it with me.

[SCLee]

[Show spoiler]

I'm not sure if you'll be able to see these as my photobucket album is set to private and I'm not sure how to change it. If not, I'll have to figure it out.

[SCLee]

Tomorrow Never Dies Blu Ray.

[Show spoiler]

So now here's my question. Is it just that Vilya's 4K player is better? Because I've read reviews from What Hi-Fi / Which etc... that state how good Panasonic 4K players are. And it's not just this Panasonic player... because I've owned several and always had readings like this from them.

Unfortunately the one I have downstairs doesn't have a playback button, so I can't test that one. I have an older 4K Panasonic player I can dig out, but I think it will give similar readings.

[SCLee]

Did the same test on a DMP-UB300 Panasonic 4K player on the first two minutes of Alita. It reached 54mbps for a split second but it was in the region of 18 / 24 like the other player, most of the time, with lows of 6 / 7 mbps, with 32, another split second.

I'm not saying Vilya is lying (why would he?) but you can see how I could manipulate the readings by showing you a picture of 54 mbps. Of course, I don't think he's dong this, so I have no idea what is going on.

Below (from google) what is a good bitrate for 4K? Don't most films run at 24 fps, so why is your bitrate so high Vilya? Is yours a HFR player and mine isn't? Do you only get HFR with expensive players? I thought HFR was for films like Gemini Man, that no one seems to like the look of, although I could be mixing this up.

[Show spoiler]

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Better put this information where people could access it, because they have short memories and will always be asking. This Thread goes back many years when I had a Mitsubishi 62" 1080i DLP, and I had to buy the set I have now in order for people to take me serious. This group can be Vicious!

Quite rightly, you have to have the necessary equipment if you are going to sing the praises of streaming and offer comparisons to disc. Many would argue you still haven’t got the relevant set up.

[sapiendut]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Quite rightly, you have to have the necessary equipment if you are going to sing the praises of streaming and offer comparisons to disc. Many would argue you still haven’t got the relevant set up.

Exactly, Sony X900 is only borderline acceptable in my books. How do I know? I have one, in the bedroom, relegated just to watch news.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

Exactly, Sony X900 is only borderline acceptable in my books. How do I know? I have one, in the bedroom, relegated just to watch news.

I am quite fond of my Sony XBR85X900F.

The next model up at the time was the 950G and it had that damnable wide angle viewing garbage on the 75" and larger models. I am not sure, but I think Sony's flagship Z series used that wide angle junk, too.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by SCLee

Did the same test on a DMP-UB300 Panasonic 4K player on the first two minutes of Alita. It reached 54mbps for a split second but it was in the region of 18 / 24 like the other player, most of the time, with lows of 6 / 7 mbps, with 32, another split second.

I'm not saying Vilya is lying (why would he?) but you can see how I could manipulate the readings by showing you a picture of 54 mbps. Of course, I don't think he's dong this, so I have no idea what is going on.

Below (from google) what is a good bitrate for 4K? Don't most films run at 24 fps, so why is your bitrate so high Vilya? Is yours a HFR player and mine isn't? Do you only get HFR with expensive players? I thought HFR was for films like Gemini Man, that no one seems to like the look of, although I could be mixing this up.

[Show spoiler]

I do not know why you are getting different readouts than I am; maybe our player's output settings are different in some way?

The discrepancy has nothing to do with frame rate; the pictures I took show the frame rate along the lower border as 23.976p.

The pictures I took are all real; they were selected to show the bitrate range that I was seeing from lowest, 4.2 Mbps in image ABA3, to the highest, 80.4 Mbps in image ABA6. Most of the time the results were between 40-55 Mbps.

The exact time stamps are included, so anyone that wanted to compare their results with mine at the exact same points could easily do so.

Perhaps someone more technically inclined than I am, such as Wendell, sapiendut, or JohnAV from the Oppo threads, could elaborate on why I am getting results so different from yours?

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by SCLee

So somehow I'm gonna have to take pictures now to prove it to you guys... oh well, leave it with me.

Taking a picture is just a snap shot of the VBR video in that instant of time. For any given title it will have a file(s) size and run time. From that we can calculate the average and that is what I and PenguinInfinity have done.

Streaming is CBR so there is no average, as in a data rate of 16 Mbps, 120 minutes will have a file size of 14.4 GB. Most streamers use adaptive streaming which means the file is segmented with each segment being a different data rate. So for the total space used you have to know how many segments are used and the data rate for each segment.

If you have UHD Netflix, search for Test Patterns, select Season 1, Episode 1 and play. In the upper right it will show the resolution and data rate. You should see it start at some value and resolution and max out at 16 Mbps, 3840 x 2160.

[SCLee]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Taking a picture is just a snap shot of the VBR video in that instant of time. For any given title it will have a file(s) size and run time. From that we can calculate the average and that is what I and PenguinInfinity have done.

Streaming is CBR so there is no average, as in a data rate of 16 Mbps, 120 minutes will have a file size of 14.4 GB. Most streamers use adaptive streaming which means the file is segmented with each segment being a different data rate. So for the total space used you have to know how many segments are used and the data rate for each segment.

If you have UHD Netflix, search for Test Patterns, select Season 1, Episode 1 and play. In the upper right it will show the resolution and data rate. You should see it start at some value and resolution and max out at 16 Mbps, 3840 x 2160.

Thanks. In your opinion, why are Vilya and myself getting such different bitrates on the same film, within the same time frame? The title is Alita Battle Angel and it's the first two minutes, but I believe it will be the same on any title we play.

Netflix maxes out at 7.6 mbps atm, but it used to be 15 mbps (with a 4K title.)

[SCLee]

If no one knows, I suppose I'll have to start a bitrate thread in the appropriate place. Thanks for doing that Vilya.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The exact time stamps are included, so anyone that wanted to compare their results with mine at the exact same points could easily do so.

Perhaps someone more technically inclined than I am, such as Wendell, sapiendut, or JohnAV from the Oppo threads, could elaborate on why I am getting results so different from yours?

His pictures does not have timecode so there is no way to compare. Don't remember just what the Sony UBP-X1000 shows but will check it soon and compare it to the Oppo.

Have been considering adding a HDFury Vertex to the rack, will read the manual to see if it shows that kind of info.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

His pictures does not have timecode so there is no way to compare. Don't remember just what the Sony UBP-X1000 shows but will check it soon and compare it to the Oppo.

Have been considering adding a HDFury Vertex to the rack, will read the manual to see if it shows that kind of info.

As my pictures do include the exact time stamps, I was wondering if you, or someone else, could confirm the results that I am seeing or not? If two or more of us get similar results that would be interesting and especially so if seen with a different 4K disc player than either I or SCLee are using.

If my query can help cause you to buy more analytical techie toys, that's something positive right there.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by SCLee

If no one knows, I suppose I'll have to start a bitrate thread in the appropriate place. Thanks for doing that Vilya.

I invited JohnAV, Oppo Product Tester, from the Oppo threads to comment; maybe he will later?